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unshift
06-19-2003, 08:59 PM
i've been lifting bodybuilding style for a while now and think its time to move on...

i wanna start learning powerlifting and olympic lifting techniques to get more explosive strength, i really don't care about size as that stuff all comes naturally anyway.

i've never seen an olympic/power lifting routine before, what does one look like for a guy trying to do mid-high volume power lifts with mid-low weight?

also... where could i learn this stuff? i dont really want to hire a trainer, but i dont want to end up doing ****ty lifts trying to replicate what i see on exrx... :)

IceRgrrl
06-20-2003, 07:24 AM
First of all, powerlifting and Olympic lifting are very different. Powerlifting mainly involves attempting to lift a 1 rep max on bench, squat, and deadlift and may allow used of wraps, suits, shirts, etc. The form and training for powerlifting is tailored to these ends.

Olympic lifting involves whole body technical lifts like the clean and jerk, snatch, etc. and the only "equipment" allowed is chalk.

What are your goals? If you are are looking to develop explosive power, then Olympic lifts will definitely help develop that, BUT they are very techical in nature and you really need to work with a knowledgeable/experienced trainer to learn them properly. Doing them with wrong/poor technique means that you won't get much out of them and/or you may injure yourself. Also, learning and mastering the technique for many of the Oly lifts is a long learning curve and takes time, practice, and patience. You won't master it in a few gym sessions. Most people who have "taught themselves" the Oly lifts are not doing them correctly...

If you really want to do them, get a good trainer and approach it as a long-term investment in slow and steady advancement.

Good luck! :)

ElPietro
06-20-2003, 07:42 AM
Originally posted by unshift
i've never seen an olympic/power lifting routine before, what does one look like for a guy trying to do mid-high volume power lifts with mid-low weight?

Ok, you should not even bother if this is what you plan on doing. High volume, with mid-low weight is diametrically opposite to what powerlifting is about. And as IceR said, power lifting and olympic lifting are entirely different things. I don't know many, if any powerlifters, that have any form of olympic lifting incorporated in their routines. At least any that are competing and know what they are doing. Both lifts are very technical though. You will not go anywhere in either sport without someone else to help you with form, and coach you a bit. I thought I knew how to do things, but recently training with a competitive powerlifter, I realize how far from the truth that is.

If you want to get into either powerlifting or olympic lifting, I'd first suggest you take a long hard look at why you want to, and what goals you hope to achieve doing it. Otherwise you are just wasting your time.

Sorry if a lot of this just repeats what IceR said, but I thought I'd reinforce her comments. She knows a hell of a lot regarding olympic lifts. And I'm starting to learn about powerlifting.

IceRgrrl
06-20-2003, 08:19 AM
Originally posted by ElPietro
[B]
You will not go anywhere in either sport without someone else to help you with form, and coach you a bit. I thought I knew how to do things, but recently training with a competitive powerlifter, I realize how far from the truth that is.
That's exactly what I found working with a strength coach who tailored my program around Oly lifts...man, you REALLY feel like a babe in the woods when you start, no matter how much lifting you've done on your own.

And with Oly lifts, you can't power your way through the lift if you have a weakness/lapse in your technique...your technique fails, you fail the lift. It can get frustrating at times, and you don't move up/progress in weight quickly b/c each addition of even 5 lbs. just exposes your next weakness that needs to be worked on. We're not trying to discourage you--adding explosive training is awesome if you're an athlete (I train for hockey)--but it's kind of like martial arts in that you have to go into in knowing that it's the long journey and not the destination that you're in it for and that that the mental toughness/stick-to-it-tiveness/right mindset is just as crucial as the physical component.

unshift
06-20-2003, 08:32 AM
hey, thanks for the replies

i guess i was confused as to the terminology of powerlifting vs olympic lifting

i want to lift, but not for the size or strength gains i'm getting now. bodybuilding for looks isn't very fun for me, i can't say i really enjoy it. what i do enjoy is squats/DL/etc that encourage total power, whereas something like a tricep pushdown is just a waste of time for me. i wanna be lifting as an activity the same way people do martial arts or anything else... i don't have anything specific to train for except for training itself. that said, i'm not looking to do huge lifts... i expect to plateau and then probably stay there for a while as i'm not really training for anything specific and don't really care about huge lifts.

basically, i want it to be more of a fun activity that has some application in daily life. i'm not looking to go to the olympics or play sports again or anything, just want to find a nice regimen to stick with and enjoy

i'm also not looking to do olympic lifts exclusively, i'm just looking for a routine with more dynamic power than what i'm doing now. for example, today, instead of doing leg presses i did walking lunges, etc. for me it just feels better and is more fun.

hope this clarified what i'm trying to do :)

unshift
06-20-2003, 09:06 AM
ok... just took a shower and figured out a way to further clarify:

i'm not looking to get bigger or anything, my goal is to become more athletic overall. i dont think i need too many olympic lifts to do this as i can just come up with circuits of "regular" lifts to achieve the same effect, but basically i'm looking to learn the power clean and the snatch. other than that i can do the rest without a problem i think

Ja113
06-20-2003, 09:34 AM
Hey Unshift...Here are a few websites to check out. They should give you some pretty good info.

Powerlifting
http://www.flexcart.com/members/elitefts/frames.asp?cid=133
http://www.drsquat.com/

Olympic Lifting
http://danjohn.org/coach.html
http://www.olympiclifting.citymax.com/page/page/91595.htm
http://www.olympus.net/personal/cablebar/index.htm

Good luck!

ElPietro
06-20-2003, 09:40 AM
I still really have no clue what your goal is, other than to learn two olympic lifts, for no apparent reason. You don't want to get significantly stronger, you don't want to get bigger, you aren't training for anything specific. "More athletic" is also too general. More athletic for hockey? Baseball? Marathon running? Bowling? Lawn Darts?

I think the best advice I can give you right now, is figure out what you want out of training. Otherwise you will have nothing to work towards, so you'll have no plan to follow, and will achieve virtually nothing from training. You won't just get bigger by training anyway, if you are just eating what you normally eat you aren't going to get bigger. Stronger, yes. Maybe build up some muscle at the expense of bodyfat, sure. This will maybe make you look bigger, but not any bigger probably in overall dimensions.

Choose a goal, find out the steps required to achieve that goal, and then perform those steps. That is the key to success, plain and simple. Everything else is just wasted energy.

Franjipani
06-20-2003, 09:53 AM
Yeah, no doubt. You need some more well-defined goals before you can just start arbitrarily throwing a routine together.

Granted the Oly lifts are good, but as Ice and LP said, they aren't something you just "pick up" overnight without a coach.

Think about what you really want first, then get back to us.

IceRgrrl
06-20-2003, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by ElPietro


STFU! You didn't have to start making fun of me! :cry:

*runs away*

LOL! That is a classic pic, El P :)

unshift, can you find someone in your area who trains athletes? If you can find someone who can design you a program tailored to your SPECIFIC goals (as El P referred to), you might get what you're looking for. I think I understand what you're getting at, but it's still too general a request to really give any decent feedback.

bob2624
06-20-2003, 12:27 PM
Yea, you are very general. More athletic doesn't really mean anything if your training is not sport specific.

If you want to start powerlifting, check out westside barbell. Go to www.elitefts.com and buy Louie Simmon's videos. Then, buy a video camera and when you work out, tape your lifts and post em here. We will critique you.

If you are going to do olympic lifts though, I agree that you should have a trainer. Those are damn hard to learn and take awhile.

Truthfully thoguh, if you are looking to be all around "more athletic" buy some strongman equipment. Guaranteed strength, size and fun. Not to mention you will get in awesome cardio shape and have near unlimited muscular endurance while still maintaining explosiveness.

Coleman
06-20-2003, 06:14 PM
I recently joined an olympic lifting club. I joined because I didn't like what body building was doing for me and would rather accomplish something other than looks from lifting. As stated before these lifts are NOT easy to learn. I've been going constantly for about 2 months and my lifts are still absolutely terrible, I mean not even close to correct technique. An incredible amount of concentration and, if you're like me, flexibility is required for some of the lifts.

WestyHeadbanger
06-20-2003, 09:02 PM
Man just look at the powerlifting websites. And come over to fortifiediron.com

and speak in the powerlifting/strongman section.

You don't need a trainer for powerlifting. Olympic liftin id suggest you physically have someone there helping you with your starting lifts but i wouldnt go as far as hiring a trainer. Powerlifting can be done on your own as long as you read on how to do the main techniques and always have a spotter.

Saint Nick
06-21-2003, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by Coleman
I joined because I didn't like what body building was doing for me and would rather accomplish something other than looks from lifting.

I consider myself "body building." I've been back at it for eleven months now. The goal...get big in all the right places and smaller in all the others. And I've accomplished more than just "looks." In August 2002, I had a bench of 135 x 1. Squat-just the bar x 'til I get tired. You get the idea. And currently...bench 255 x 4. Squat 355 x 6.

So I don't get the hating on "wussy ol'" body building.

As best as I can tell, I do everything that most "powerlifters" do and more because I don't exclusively do compound exercises and I do care about having a gut hanging down to my kneecaps. If I'm wrong, somebody set me straight...but it seems like the major difference between bodybuilding people and powerlifting people is in the emphasis on appearance; not the weights each can move.

So if I'm gonna bust ass for an hour or so four or five days a week lifting, I want the recognition that comes with that work. I want people to look at me and see someone who busts their ass; not someone who looks like they pay a monthly lease for a table at Krispy Kreme.

/end of rant

chris mason
06-23-2003, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by ElPietro
[B]

I don't know many, if any powerlifters, that have any form of olympic lifting incorporated in their routines. At least any that are competing and know what they are doing. ]


Actually, some of the greatest lifters of all time have done both. Shane Hamman, our greatest recent Olympic lifter has squatted with over 1000 lbs.

John Cole, one of the greatest lifters of all time used to stake his claim to being the world's strongest man based upon the totals of his powerlifts and Olympic lifts.

Paul Anderson was an Olympic gold medalist and most likely one of the strongest squatters ever.

Ken Patera was great at both sports.

The list goes on, especially if you go back a few years.

ElPietro
06-24-2003, 07:13 AM
Originally posted by chris mason



Actually, some of the greatest lifters of all time have done both. Shane Hamman, our greatest recent Olympic lifter has squatted with over 1000 lbs.

John Cole, one of the greatest lifters of all time used to stake his claim to being the world's strongest man based upon the totals of his powerlifts and Olympic lifts.

Paul Anderson was an Olympic gold medalist and most likely one of the strongest squatters ever.

Ken Patera was great at both sports.

The list goes on, especially if you go back a few years.

Chris, you misunderstood. I said they don't have it incorporated in their routines. I'm sure many olympic lifters, bodybuilders, whatever, have become powerlifters and vice versa. Did they train for both at the same time? Nope. Would any competetive powerlifter be training with olympic movements? Nope. That is what I meant. You won't be training clean and jerk, or things of that nature if you are dedicated to powerlifting. There are too many conflicts that would arise from training in both styles.

Paul Stagg
06-24-2003, 07:23 AM
Powerlifters most certainly can train with Olympic lifts and variations thereof.

I've incorporated cleans and high pulls into my Westside routine. OH squats, snatches, push presses, jerks, etc, etc, etc could all be used effectively in a powerlifting routine.

Certainly, someone competing as a Pler wouldn't train like an Oler (or vice versa). Doesn't mean some of those lifts wouldn't be incorporated.

ElPietro
06-24-2003, 07:34 AM
Originally posted by Paul Stagg
Powerlifters most certainly can train with Olympic lifts and variations thereof.

I've incorporated cleans and high pulls into my Westside routine. OH squats, snatches, push presses, jerks, etc, etc, etc could all be used effectively in a powerlifting routine.

Certainly, someone competing as a Pler wouldn't train like an Oler (or vice versa). Doesn't mean some of those lifts wouldn't be incorporated.

They can also train with 1,000 reps of DB kickbacks, but they don't. Because you've incorporated something doesn't mean that is generally what happens. I doubt there are many if any serious competing powerlifters that do this. They are in contradiction of each other.

I don't get your statement about a competing pler wouldn't train like an oler but will still lift like one. Bit of a contradiction as well. I spoke to the guy coaching me once and brought up the topic of olympic lifts, and he just shook his head and said they aren't for powerlifting. He's done them before but not when competing or training to do so. They are full body movements and powerlifting is not based on this, but based on the 3 lifts obviously, with assistance exercises. Doing powercleans will not help you as much as doing speed squats or speed deads, but it will also inhibit your next workout if it be bench or whatever.

You can do whatever you want, but if you are speaking strictly about a serious competitor in powerlifting, they will be training as one, not an olifter. And as such, I doubt would be doing any olympic lifts, since it wouldn't be helping the cause at all.

Paul Stagg
06-24-2003, 08:24 AM
It isn't at all a contridiction.

'Train like one' means traning specificly to improve the two olympic competition lifts.

Incorporating some cleans, high pulls, Oh squats, etc.. into a routine is not 'training like an OLer.'

There are a number of benefits of incorporating the occasional Olympic style lift into powerlifting training. Doing a couple of sets of power cleans or hang snatches on a squat/dead day certianly won't detract from your next bench day.

Maybe when I'm a 'serious' lifter, my opinion will carry more weight.

ElPietro
06-24-2003, 08:25 AM
I guess I could correct myself to some degree, in saying that there is some new wave type of powerlifting where they will not incorporate deadlifts into a routine, but will do "some" power cleans. This isn't strictly an olympic lift, but is designed for dynamic weight only, in order to alleviate overtraining of the lower back. I think Louie does this sometimes. But training for olympic lifting obviously is different from powerlifting, so combining them is still a conflict in goals, since both are very technical, and need to be worked constantly. The olympic lifts are all overhead, whilst powerlifting none are, so there is the distinction. Both can get you strong, but both are very different. Maybe periodizing them for fun or overall explosiveness could be done, but at the same time I don't think you'll see too much oly lifting from someone training for a meet. Hope that clears up my viewpoint.

ElPietro
06-24-2003, 08:33 AM
If you are going to deadlift, squat, and hang clean in the same day, I don't think you could keep this up very long with any efficacy. The whole point of powerlifting is getting as good as you can at the three lifts. So you do the three lifts or a variation thereof, which I'm sure you already know. But oly lifts aren't one of the three, and aren't really an assistance exercise either. I think Tate and Simmons do cleans of some form as a replacement for deadlifts as I said. But this is I guess when they feel their overtraining the lower back. Even then, I think they are only doing light explosive reps.

To me, doing a couple sets here and there seems rather fruitless. If you want to do them instead of deads, I guess that's fine, but I think if you were to do deads and squats, or deads and squats and power cleans, you'd be better off doing the former rather than the latter, if you are training for a meet.

As for your opinion, I don't know. Experience is always important, but then I still will question whatever I hear. Whether it's you, chriss, or Harnek, who I train with now. I know he's a wealth of knowledge, since he's competed for I think 20 years, and is an IPF referee and runs meets here in ontario, but I still won't let him just spoonfeed me concepts on training without critically thinking for myself or second guessing him at times.

Paul Stagg
06-24-2003, 08:58 AM
When training westside, you would pretty rarely squat, deadlift, and clean on the same day.

On a more standard (Coan like) routine, you would never squat and deadlift on the same day.

Training Sheiko or 3x3 or something like that, you'd probably not have time to do any (or much) compound assistance stuff at all. (It's been a while since i looked at sheiko, so I could be mistaken)

Training Westside, you would change your assistance stuff pretty frequently, anyway.

A typical ME day might look like this:

Good morning to 1RM
SLDL 3x8
Hang Cleans 3x5
Hypers 3x15
Abs 3x15

A DE day:

Box squat (@ 60%) 8x2
Speed pulls (@ 60%) 6x1 (not every week)
SLDL 3x5
Snatch grip high pulls 3x5
Hypers 3x15
Abs 3x15

If the things cleans work (upper back, for example) are weak points, why not? Remember, we aren't training to failure on this stuff.

The benefits of including an OLY lift:

Fun
Increase work capacity
Work lots of muscle with one lift
Work on speed/explosiveness
GPP
Conditioning

If they get to be too much, or aren't adding anything, then don't include them.

From a 'Western' standpoint, putting cleans or high pulls in on a deadlift day, or including OH squats on a squat day might be a great addition to a program. Might not.

It all depends on the lifter.

An Elite level Pler (a guy totalling 1850+ as a 220, say) probably doesn't need to work on what an OL would help. A 220 who totals 1100 who needs to improve GPP, conditioning, explosiveness, and his upper back/traps might find great value in an OL.

A PLer certianly doesn't really give a hoot if his c&J is going up, and isn't going to spend much time perfecting that lift - but that doesn't mean he won't consider an OLY lift now and again.

ElPietro
06-24-2003, 09:13 AM
I agree with some of this, if not most. I think that the main reason I'd do something like that is the first reason you listed, "fun."

I think where you and I veer from trains of thought is on explosiveness. I am more of an opinion that explosiveness isn't just a general attribute, but is very specific and movement oriented. So training an explosive movement like a powerclean, is similar to a deadlift, or a squat in several mechanical ways, it isn't the same. So if I wanted to work on explosive squats or deads, I'd train as such. There is more going on in a powerclean that you have to worry about. There are also more limiting factors, versus training an explosive squat, I am training that exact movement to be as fast or powerful as possible. If I'm weak at the top, I think that is the purpose of assistance exercises. I could work my traps and lats better by targetting them with strength sets. I think this goes for new lifter or not. But I do agree that probably if you are new to lifting, that olympic lifts can get you to become a more well rounded lifter in general, before going strictly with a routine so narrowly focused on powerlifting.

So sure, you can use it, and I'm sure it's great for fun, and also performance to some degree. But I think strictly speaking, powercleans will be much less of an optimal choice over explosively lifting with the big 3 instead.

You said this, "Doing a couple of sets of power cleans or hang snatches on a squat/dead day certianly won't detract from your next bench day."

I guess this is where I thought you were implying you'd do all this in one day. To me that would be lower back suicide. But I see from your sample program that's not what happens in general. I guess the entire training methodology for powerlifting can change dramatically depending on whether you are on a 3 day or 4 day split.

As for assistance stuff, yeah I agree it's not that important what exercise you do, moreso what muscles you are working. I guess this is where you have to tiptoe around if you aren't going to have too much overlap or overtraining, whilst also working at your weaknesses holding you back. I still barely know where my weaknesses lie, so I sure have a long way to go still.

Paul Stagg
06-24-2003, 09:32 AM
I agree with some of this, if not most. I think that the main reason I'd do something like that is the first reason you listed, "fun."

** Fun and upper back work is why I incorporated them.

I think where you and I veer from trains of thought is on explosiveness. I am more of an opinion that explosiveness isn't just a general attribute, but is very specific and movement oriented. So training an explosive movement like a powerclean, is similar to a deadlift, or a squat in several mechanical ways, it isn't the same. So if I wanted to work on explosive squats or deads, I'd train as such. There is more going on in a powerclean that you have to worry about. There are also more limiting factors, versus training an explosive squat, I am training that exact movement to be as fast or powerful as possible. If I'm weak at the top, I think that is the purpose of assistance exercises. I could work my traps and lats better by targetting them with strength sets. I think this goes for new lifter or not. But I do agree that probably if you are new to lifting, that olympic lifts can get you to become a more well rounded lifter in general, before going strictly with a routine so narrowly focused on powerlifting.

** I agree. I'm still learning how to be explosive... period. How it feels to be explosive with an OL lift is the same as it does with a squat, even though an explosive clean won't make your squat more explosive (does that make sence?). I also think it makes for a more 'well rounded' lifter - a more 'athletic' lifter, for lack of a better word. I also would include strength oriented stuff.. in my case, I include shrugs on one Squat/Dead day, and a high pull or clean or something on the other.

So sure, you can use it, and I'm sure it's great for fun, and also performance to some degree. But I think strictly speaking, powercleans will be much less of an optimal choice over explosively lifting with the big 3 instead.

** Absolutley. I wouldn't regularly substitute cleans from the floor for speed deads, although doing it occasionally might not be a bad idea.

You said this, "Doing a couple of sets of power cleans or hang snatches on a squat/dead day certianly won't detract from your next bench day."

I guess this is where I thought you were implying you'd do all this in one day. To me that would be lower back suicide. But I see from your sample program that's not what happens in general. I guess the entire training methodology for powerlifting can change dramatically depending on whether you are on a 3 day or 4 day split.

** And whether you train WSB, Western, or something else.

As for assistance stuff, yeah I agree it's not that important what exercise you do, moreso what muscles you are working. I guess this is where you have to tiptoe around if you aren't going to have too much overlap or overtraining, whilst also working at your weaknesses holding you back. I still barely know where my weaknesses lie, so I sure have a long way to go still.

** You'll learn quickly, then they'll change. As far as overtraining - I think if you include appropriate conditioning work, eat and rest appropriately, and pay attention, you can overcome overlap and overtraining. I was just reading some sheiko stuff - it's totally counterintuitive when looking at lifting from a bodybuilder paradigm... You bench and squat in one day, you train twice a day, and you train every day... yet your body becomes accustomed to the workload, and it prepares you to peak. I tend to worry FAR more about not hitting a weak area enough than I worry about a little more work than I need on a weak area.

** I think you'll enjoy your new training partner - I read the last page or two of your journal - don't fret over what your total will be, either. I was sure as a 220 (100kg) I would die of embarrassment if I didn't total 1200. I didn't - I totaled 1015, and I didn't die. I had a blast, learned a lot, and no one pointed and laughed. Next time, I'll get better. And the next, and the next.

ElPietro
06-24-2003, 09:44 AM
Yeah, I'm going to be helping Harnek with a meet he's running on July 6th. So I'll get to meet some competitors, and some other big name Canadian training gurus with international experience. Harnek I am lucky to get to train with regularly, but it will be great to get other people's input on things, since everyone has a different way of explaining form issues and such.

I guess the biggest asset will just to get some exposure to a meet environment, and see what these guys do to get down and up. Right now my biggest problem I believe is tempo and explosiveness out of the hole. Seeing how fast or slow some of these guys do it will probably help a lot.

I'll probably only throw in powercleans or other oly mimicking lifts if I feel like I've killed my back on a max dead attempt, and feel the need to take a month off or something. But I'd rather stick with the 3 lifts, as I have a long way to go, shifting my form from what a bodybuilder would do, to what a powerlifter should.