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unshift
06-23-2003, 07:27 PM
from what i've gathered here, eating carbs post-workout invokes an insulin response that helps promote faster recovery and whatnot for muscles.

i've also gathered that an insulin response blocks the fat burning effects immediately after the workout. is this true?

what i did today is eat 20g protein/15g carbs or so pre-workout (7am), worked out, had a post-workout shake (8:30am or so), then roughly an hour later some carbs before heading out to work. is this advisible if i'm trying to lose fat as efficiently as possible (even at the expensive of some muscle gain)?

Holto
06-23-2003, 09:54 PM
when I'm cutting I take my post w/o shake about 30 minutes after to continue to burn fat (at the expense of muscle)

noraa
06-24-2003, 12:19 AM
It wont make a differences as long as total calorie intake is reduced.

bradley
06-24-2003, 03:19 AM
Originally posted by unshift
from what i've gathered here, eating carbs post-workout invokes an insulin response that helps promote faster recovery and whatnot for muscles.

Yes



i've also gathered that an insulin response blocks the fat burning effects immediately after the workout. is this true?


Yes, insulin both lipogenic and anti-lipolytic. Basically just think of insulin as a storage hormone.



what i did today is eat 20g protein/15g carbs or so pre-workout (7am), worked out, had a post-workout shake (8:30am or so), then roughly an hour later some carbs before heading out to work. is this advisible if i'm trying to lose fat as efficiently as possible (even at the expensive of some muscle gain)? [/B]

Sounds fine to me and as other members have mentioned it really just comes down to calories at the end of the day. If you are in a calorie deficit at the end of the day you will lose weight.

I would have probably gone with more carbs preworkout and less protein. Maybe something like 25g of carbs and 10g of protein about 30 minutes before training.

unshift
06-24-2003, 07:00 AM
i would love to have a better pre-workout meal, but that really isn't an option without eating too much right before lifting. i wake up, throw down 3/4 scoop of whey and half a cup of cheerios, and hit the gym right away. my schedule doesn't really allow me to relax and digest, so i try to eat as little as possible before training

bradley
06-24-2003, 08:14 AM
Originally posted by unshift
i would love to have a better pre-workout meal, but that really isn't an option without eating too much right before lifting. i wake up, throw down 3/4 scoop of whey and half a cup of cheerios, and hit the gym right away. my schedule doesn't really allow me to relax and digest, so i try to eat as little as possible before training

You could just eat a few more cheerios and a little less whey, or maybe mix up your whey with a little fruit juice.

Behemoth
06-24-2003, 09:40 AM
Bradley if insulin inhibits fat loss, then surely having spiked insulin 24/7 would result in somewhat of a difference in fat loss when in a caloric deficit then when having contant stable insulin (wouldn't it?).
Although I've come to agree with you that regardless of macronutrient breakdown, if your in a caloric deficit at the end of the day you'll lose weight. I can't help but try to weigh in the other factors, such as the presence of insulin.

Holto
06-24-2003, 12:22 PM
I agree...

if my resting insulin levels are high all day my metabolism just slows down to a crawl and I burn less Cals thus changing the dynamic of cals in cals out

its the same as eating a few nutrient dense meals per day VS
5 well planned cutting meals with veggies etc...

the second scenario would have me burning more cals in a day

Holto
06-24-2003, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by Behemoth
Bradley if insulin inhibits fat loss, then surely having spiked insulin 24/7 would result in

a diabetic coma

just quibbling over sematics here but a spike is a short lived thing

you mean elevated levels...(resting and post meal)

bradley
06-24-2003, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by Behemoth
Bradley if insulin inhibits fat loss, then surely having spiked insulin 24/7 would result in somewhat of a difference in fat loss when in a caloric deficit then when having contant stable insulin (wouldn't it?).


It might make a small difference in terms of getting rid of that last little bit of stubborn bf.

Also if you were eating enough to keep insulin levels elevated 24/7 you would be eating quite a large amount of calories anyway.

bradley
06-24-2003, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by Holto
its the same as eating a few nutrient dense meals per day VS
5 well planned cutting meals with veggies etc...

the second scenario would have me burning more cals in a day


http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32700

Holto
06-24-2003, 06:08 PM
I didn't look that carefully but most of those studies used sedentary individuals

an athletes metabolism is drastically higher than a sedendtary individuals and IMO more subject to variances througout the day

if we were to take that research to heart we would have to belive that 2 meals a day is as good as 5+

I don't think anyone here would agree with that or recommend it

I am currently working on a product called Calories In Calories Out so I definitely realize that is the bottom line for loss or gain but I think the amount of gain/rate can be influenced by other factors

if we designed a study where one group ate brownies for carbs, ground beef for protein and somehow got EFA's I don't think they would lose weight as fast as a group that ate the same macro's and total cals from clean food

perhaps I would be shocked by the results

either way I learn alot from the links you dig up so I appreciate your time

bradley
06-25-2003, 03:16 AM
Originally posted by Holto
an athletes metabolism is drastically higher than a sedendtary individuals and IMO more subject to variances througout the day

if we were to take that research to heart we would have to belive that 2 meals a day is as good as 5+

I agree that 2 meals would not be as good as 5-6 meals, but I don't think you are going to see much difference between eating a meal ever 2-3 hours as opposed to every 4-5 hours. According to the studies and what I have read the only benefit would be appetite control, and it has been my experience that eating larger meals every 4 hours seems to control my appetite better than eating smaller meals every 2 hours.



I am currently working on a product called Calories In Calories Out so I definitely realize that is the bottom line for loss or gain but I think the amount of gain/rate can be influenced by other factors

I agree that you may be able to manipulate fat gain/loss to an extent, especially if you are trying to get down to a low bf%.



if we designed a study where one group ate brownies for carbs, ground beef for protein and somehow got EFA's I don't think they would lose weight as fast as a group that ate the same macro's and total cals from clean food


If insulin plays that large of a role one could argue that the group eating the brownies would lose weight faster given the same calorie intake and assuming adequate amounts of EFAs and protein.

The reason I am saying this is that the group eating the brownies would have a faster rise and fall of insulin levels as compared to the group eating clean foods (which I assume would be considered low GI carbs). Since the brownie groups insulin levels rise and fall they would be back in fat burning "mode" faster than the group eating the low GI carbs. The low GI carbs would cause a slower release of glucose into the bloodstream which would mean insulin would be present for a longer period of time, and would therefor inhibit fat burning for a longer period of time.

Also if insulin played as large of a role as some would like us to believe, then the keto diets would show a much larger fat loss as compared to a more balanced diet. Studies have shown that this is not the case.

noraa
06-25-2003, 03:49 AM
Originally posted by Holto
if we designed a study where one group ate brownies for carbs, ground beef for protein and somehow got EFA's I don't think they would lose weight as fast as a group that ate the same macro's and total cals from clean food

perhaps I would be shocked by the results

either way I learn alot from the links you dig up so I appreciate your time
Some of the early calorie matched keto diets were liquid based, low calorie diets. Once the so called junk is digested, the body doesnt know the difference between it and 'clean' food. Aminos are aminos, fat is fat and carbs are carbs in the end.
While digestion rates will differ, this will not make a real difference in the final measure of fat loss if everything is equal (calories, digestable carbs etc)

as0l0
06-25-2003, 05:20 AM
finally some confirmation of sensibility. I've been seeing this whole carbs don't matter, only protien + EFA's + cals from Lyle McDonald on MFW (where I lurk) and have been dying for some confirmation.

now I can sleep tonight...

Holto
06-25-2003, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by bradley

The reason I am saying this is that the group eating the brownies would have a faster rise and fall of insulin levels as compared to the group eating clean foods

I can't believe how logical that is...:D

as: what's the URL for MFW I think I need to hit that up

Behemoth
06-25-2003, 12:42 PM
I've heard you state before that the only time eating good carbs like oats as opposed to poor carbs like table sugar makes a difference would be when trying to reach a very very lean BF. If the previous it true then it completely contradicts what I'm quoting below...


Originally posted by bradley
The reason I am saying this is that the group eating the brownies would have a faster rise and fall of insulin levels as compared to the group eating clean foods (which I assume would be considered low GI carbs). Since the brownie groups insulin levels rise and fall they would be back in fat burning "mode" faster than the group eating the low GI carbs. The low GI carbs would cause a slower release of glucose into the bloodstream which would mean insulin would be present for a longer period of time, and would therefor inhibit fat burning for a longer period of time.

bradley
06-25-2003, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by Behemoth
I've heard you state before that the only time eating good carbs like oats as opposed to poor carbs like table sugar makes a difference would be when trying to reach a very very lean BF. If the previous it true then it completely contradicts what I'm quoting below...



The statement that you quoted was a hypothetical situation in response to Holto's statement, and I have nothing to back it up. Like I said before I do not believe the manipulation of insulin levels through diet will play that large of a role in the loss of bf. When you get to the stubborn bf then it might make some difference. Which is the same thing I stated in one of my posts above:)


Originally posted by bradley
If insulin plays that large of a role one could argue that the group eating the brownies would lose weight faster given the same calorie intake and assuming adequate amounts of EFAs and protein.

Behemoth
06-25-2003, 02:02 PM
gotcha :)

as0l0
06-25-2003, 05:54 PM
alright, so if this thread accepts that adequate protien, efa's and a cal deficit are the only important factors for fat loss.....

...does the same apply for gains ? or do other factors come into play for gains ?

Behemoth
06-25-2003, 08:36 PM
yes

as0l0
06-25-2003, 09:11 PM
just to clarify that yes.

for gains.

adequate protien
adequate efa's
calorie surplus from whatever else you like

Behemoth
06-25-2003, 09:53 PM
More or less.

JuniorMint6669
06-26-2003, 12:32 AM
Not sure if this is on topic, but Im assuming an insulin spike is bad for those of us on a cut... so is there such thing as a long insulin spike and a short insulin spike? For example: Would 5g/10g/40g of dextrose all produce an insulin spike of equal lengths of time and of equal intensitys?

Also, since this spike stops fatloss, and the point of HIIT is continual fatloss postworkout, would an insulin spike completely negate the increased metabolism produced by HIIT for the rest of the day? for a short period of time?

as0l0
06-26-2003, 01:13 AM
actually, this thread tells us that insulin is of no concern....take a read of the thread, well worth your while

bradley
06-26-2003, 02:51 AM
Originally posted by JuniorMint6669
Not sure if this is on topic, but Im assuming an insulin spike is bad for those of us on a cut...

Well from a weight loss aspect the insulin spike is not going to be that important. Making sure that you are below maintenance calories is what is important. Although controlling insulin through your diet would help with appetite control.



so is there such thing as a long insulin spike and a short insulin spike? For example: Would 5g/10g/40g of dextrose all produce an insulin spike of equal lengths of time and of equal intensitys? [/b]

Well the more carbs you have the greater the insulin response. Just because you eat carbs does not mean that you insulin is going to "spike" and a better way to think of it would be insulin response. 40g of dextrose would cause more of an insulin response than say 10g or 5g because blood sugar levels would rise to a higher level with the 40g as compared to 10g or 5g.



Also, since this spike stops fatloss, and the point of HIIT is continual fatloss postworkout, would an insulin spike completely negate the increased metabolism produced by HIIT for the rest of the day?

No:)



for a short period of time?

Well when insulin is present fat burning will come to a halt but as soon as insulin levels drop fat burning will resume. Yes, insulin will halt fat loss after HIIT if you were to consume carbs after the HIIT session but that definitely does not negate the effects of the HIIT session, and I would recommend some type of carbs protein after an intense HIIT session.

JuniorMint6669
06-27-2003, 01:02 AM
thanks bradley- do you think my typical postworkout shake of 50g gatorade (dextrose) 25g whey is appropriate post hiit? or should I bring the total size down?

bradley
06-27-2003, 02:31 AM
Originally posted by JuniorMint6669
thanks bradley- do you think my typical postworkout shake of 50g gatorade (dextrose) 25g whey is appropriate post hiit? or should I bring the total size down?

I think it would really depend on the duration and intensity of your HIIT session, but if you are accounting for the cals in your daily calorie intake then it should be fine.