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View Full Version : Dynamic days... They seem quite useless to me



Meat_Head
07-02-2003, 12:17 AM
Seriously now.... the sport is powerlifting. You lift maximal weights in the squat deadlift and bench press. NONE of those are explosive lifts, especially when you're doing a single with your top weight! Training explosively with a weight that is too light to stress your CNS or muscles significantly isn't gonna do much IMHO....

Discuss!

Budiak
07-02-2003, 03:08 AM
F=MxA





Anything else?

ElPietro
07-02-2003, 07:32 AM
Are you saying this to start a useless argument? Or do you actually believe what you just said?

It's pretty easy to understand for me, and there are plenty of threads everywhere on this, so I'm not going to bite on what seems to be obvious bait.

Manveet
07-02-2003, 09:42 AM
Originally posted by Budiak
F=MxA





Anything else?

That pretty much summed it up for me.

john26
07-02-2003, 10:08 AM
if you don't understand the very obvious logic behind dynamic effort then you need to read up, a lot.

Ja113
07-02-2003, 10:15 AM
Bump on these guys!

benchmonster
07-02-2003, 10:42 AM
all of the powerlifts, if done properly are quite explosive. Perhaps you are watching the wrong people lift.

B.

fuzz
07-02-2003, 10:54 AM
meathead: Nice troll. Why don't you do some research or reading up on things before posting? If you are trying to start discussion, at least pose an interesting and valid question.

PowerManDL
07-02-2003, 11:17 AM
Explosive != fast.

Explosive means fast recruitment of muscle fibers. The actual speed of the movement is quite irrelevant.

Dynamic days train you to recruit fibers quickly.

Saturday Fever
07-02-2003, 01:44 PM
The dynamic work is just as important as the ME work, if not more so.

If you can't get the bar into your power zone, you're going to get pinned.

Meat_Head
07-02-2003, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by PowerManDL
Explosive != fast.

Explosive means fast recruitment of muscle fibers. The actual speed of the movement is quite irrelevant.

Dynamic days train you to recruit fibers quickly.

Thanks for posting something that actually tells me something, as opposed to the other westside obsessed bunnies.

It was part question and part trying to get a good discussion going.

F=MxA.... I know this. My point was that doing 2 or 3 reps with 60% isn't going to stress much... Why not use 80%+ of your max explosively?

Olympic lifts are explosive. Olympic lifters train for explosiveness. When they are seriously trying to increase their explosive lifts, they don't use tiny weights.

Westside is a good system, I agree, but seriously, 60% of your max? I could train singles close to my max explosively every time I workout and I would get more progression then switching to a tiny weight every once in a while... just makes sense to me.

john26
07-02-2003, 05:01 PM
well, all i can say is that having days just for speed has helped me through so many pleateu's that i won't doubt the system

DK
07-02-2003, 06:01 PM
When you are using 60% or so for your speed days, you are actually putting 100% force into it. Singles close to your max couldn't be trained explosively. You need the speed work to blast through your sticking points. A max attempt is estimated to be around 3 seconds long. That is how long it should take you to get three reps with the dynamic method. Makes perfect sence.

Meat_Head
07-03-2003, 12:06 AM
Originally posted by dkliewer
When you are using 60% or so for your speed days, you are actually putting 100% force into it. Singles close to your max couldn't be trained explosively. You need the speed work to blast through your sticking points. A max attempt is estimated to be around 3 seconds long. That is how long it should take you to get three reps with the dynamic method. Makes perfect sence.

You can put 100% explosion on it, but you can do that with any weight. Explain to me how doing a dynamic session with 60% of your max is better than doing it with 80 or even 90%. If you're looking to increase your one rep max, it seems like it would make sense to train with a weight closer to your max.

By the way I would never work with my actual single rep max, just close to it...

I'm not trying to come off as arrogant either, just trying to figure out why you guys do it that way...

PowerManDL
07-03-2003, 12:42 AM
Originally posted by xMeat_Headx
Thanks for posting something that actually tells me something, as opposed to the other westside obsessed bunnies.

It was part question and part trying to get a good discussion going.

F=MxA.... I know this. My point was that doing 2 or 3 reps with 60% isn't going to stress much... Why not use 80%+ of your max explosively?

Olympic lifts are explosive. Olympic lifters train for explosiveness. When they are seriously trying to increase their explosive lifts, they don't use tiny weights.

Westside is a good system, I agree, but seriously, 60% of your max? I could train singles close to my max explosively every time I workout and I would get more progression then switching to a tiny weight every once in a while... just makes sense to me.

Its more than just force output. A couple of factors become optimized in that range.

RFD, you're correct. That's best developed with heavier loads, in terms of specificity.

However, the function of power, force*velocity, is best developed at lower loads. This is still critical for motor unit recruitment.

Additionally, you have to take into account the effect of reactive ability. This is the effect of quickly halting and reversing an eccentric movment, and can't be trained with heavier weights. In fact, 60% is probably as heavy as you should go, and even then its likely too much.

The lighter days have their place.

Finally, OLers train heavy as a % of max in that lift yes, but compare a lifter's max clean to his max deadlift, percentage wise.

Meat_Head
07-03-2003, 01:24 AM
Originally posted by PowerManDL


Its more than just force output. A couple of factors become optimized in that range.

RFD, you're correct. That's best developed with heavier loads, in terms of specificity.

However, the function of power, force*velocity, is best developed at lower loads. This is still critical for motor unit recruitment.

Additionally, you have to take into account the effect of reactive ability. This is the effect of quickly halting and reversing an eccentric movment, and can't be trained with heavier weights. In fact, 60% is probably as heavy as you should go, and even then its likely too much.

The lighter days have their place.

Finally, OLers train heavy as a % of max in that lift yes, but compare a lifter's max clean to his max deadlift, percentage wise.

I see, would it make sense to train both in one workout? Would it be better to do them seperately?

Paul Stagg
07-03-2003, 08:13 AM
Using terms like 'Westside obsessed bunnies' is a good way to piss off a lot of people, and not a good way to foster productive discussion.

ElPietro
07-03-2003, 08:19 AM
I think we need to post F=MxA like 10 more times then he will comprehend.

F=MxA
F=MxA
F=MxA
F=MxA
F=MxA
F=MxA
F=MxA
F=MxA
F=MxA
F=MxA

So let's see, if mass is decreased, but accelerated faster, in equal proportion, the force output remains equal. Interesting. Also, we learn to lift explosively, which is crucial off the bottom in all 3 powerlifting movements, to get the weight moving in a positive direction. Also very interesting.

I think I'll put my f*cking bunny ears back on now...

body
07-03-2003, 11:50 AM
think people fall into the trap of it does not make them feel tired or get a pump so it must not be working.

i am not sure how much Dymanic days contributed to my overall lifts. but i did them for a year.

Meat_Head
07-03-2003, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by ElPietro
[B]I think we need to post F=MxA like 10 more times then he will comprehend.

F=MxA
F=MxA
F=MxA
F=MxA
F=MxA
F=MxA
F=MxA
F=MxA
F=MxA
F=MxA

That's just immature....



So let's see, if mass is decreased, but accelerated faster, in equal proportion, the force output remains equal.

That's just foolish. There's no way to measure that completely accurately. The only reason a dynamic day makes sense is for training to activate more motor units faster, like powerman said. You will NOT be able to make a dynamic workout equal to a maximal one just because you decrease the mass and increase the acceleration. They train two seperate things....


Interesting. Also, we learn to lift explosively, which is crucial off the bottom in all 3 powerlifting movements, to get the weight moving in a positive direction. Also very interesting.

This makes sense. If you train yourself to activate fibers more effeciently and faster at the bottom position of the movement, it would help the bar get moving. Good job...

Meat_Head
07-03-2003, 12:17 PM
Originally posted by Paul Stagg
Using terms like 'Westside obsessed bunnies' is a good way to piss off a lot of people, and not a good way to foster productive discussion.

I agree, it was out of line, as were their responses to my origional statement.

Meat_Head
07-03-2003, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by body
think people fall into the trap of it does not make them feel tired or get a pump so it must not be working.

i am not sure how much Dymanic days contributed to my overall lifts. but i did them for a year.

I've done plenty of things in my training that don't give me a pump, and that I'm pretty sure no one else here has ever tried. I don't know if its possible to measure how they affect your lifts over all because you never know what your progress would be like if you only did maximal days.

I just wanted to understand the principle of dynamic days in more depth, rather than accepting the spouting off of a simple formula F=MxA

PowerManDL
07-03-2003, 01:33 PM
F = ma is only a small part of it.

Given equal force, you'll get different training effects for a larger quantity of m than you would for a larger quantity of a, which is why the dynamic days are key.

Budiak
07-03-2003, 07:39 PM
How is putting out 100% effort not equal to 100% effort at a higher weight? When you do dynamic days, are you just babying the weight? You can't do that, that weight has to fire up as fast as possible. Its 100% intensity at 60% weight. If you put 400 pounds of force out on the lesser load, you can do multiple reps..I...what is so difficult to understand?

DK
07-03-2003, 08:20 PM
I think that's what everyone has been saying.

PowerManDL
07-04-2003, 12:18 AM
Originally posted by Budiak
How is putting out 100% effort not equal to 100% effort at a higher weight? When you do dynamic days, are you just babying the weight? You can't do that, that weight has to fire up as fast as possible. Its 100% intensity at 60% weight. If you put 400 pounds of force out on the lesser load, you can do multiple reps..I...what is so difficult to understand?


HIPPITY HOP, MOTHER ****ER!

Despite the emotive showmanship, you're forgetting the point that the body is an adaptive mechanism.

The body can distinguish quite readily between a load at 95% of maximum and one at 55% of maximum. The effects on the body's adaptive response, even given an equal force output (which isn't likely, FYI), won't be the same.

Budiak
07-04-2003, 02:54 AM
Hippity



****ing



hop.

Meat_Head
07-04-2003, 03:13 AM
Originally posted by Budiak
Hippity



****ing



hop.

:D

RG570
07-04-2003, 11:58 AM
*refers to signature*

PowerManDL
07-04-2003, 12:18 PM
Don't test my Wu-Tang Moderation Skillz™, bitches.

FortifiedIron
07-04-2003, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by xMeat_Headx


Thanks for posting something that actually tells me something, as opposed to the other westside obsessed bunnies.

It was part question and part trying to get a good discussion going.

F=MxA.... I know this. My point was that doing 2 or 3 reps with 60% isn't going to stress much... Why not use 80%+ of your max explosively?

Olympic lifts are explosive. Olympic lifters train for explosiveness. When they are seriously trying to increase their explosive lifts, they don't use tiny weights.

Westside is a good system, I agree, but seriously, 60% of your max? I could train singles close to my max explosively every time I workout and I would get more progression then switching to a tiny weight every once in a while... just makes sense to me.

There was a recenty study done by Kreamer that used ligh loads of up to 25-30% (not sure of the exact numbers plz correct me if im wrong) with dynamic movements where bar speed was constant. Power development was high with this light of loads.

The dynamic method from the WSB is an adapted method from the Russian weightlifters. Almost all of your dynamic methods used from WS where dirived from Eastern Bloc olympic weightlifting.

I think Mel Siff even covered this topic in Supertraining about why using a light load can actually increase force production and power.



Kc

PowerManDL
07-04-2003, 08:46 PM
Exactly.

A lot of that low-end stuff has a lot to do with neural recruitment and the stretch reflex.

Now granted, this has limits...I don't want you jokers going out and using 30% and expecting results....but it just goes to show that there's something to be said for light speed-style work.

FortifiedIron
07-04-2003, 09:37 PM
I think Siff wrote it being from the 45-60% range in Supertraining. Not sure.


Kc