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View Full Version : new world bench record set!!!!!!!



synthetic
07-13-2003, 11:20 AM
he hit 825 not logn ago, and hits 875!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.lentv.net/MOV00584.MPG

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Scooby-Doo
07-13-2003, 12:08 PM
Dang! :eek:

body
07-13-2003, 01:19 PM
he took about 6 seconds to complete the rep. thats quite a while with 875 pounds.

FortifiedIron
07-13-2003, 05:04 PM
I got to talk to Mendy yesterda, great guy! To bad he is retiring!


Kc

DK
07-13-2003, 05:41 PM
Holy ****, that is awesome.

I wonder what it would feel like to own the title of world's highest bencher.

GonePostal
07-13-2003, 05:46 PM
It would feel f00kin awesome!

chris mason
07-13-2003, 06:16 PM
At the risk of belaboring a point, I have a problem with the lift. At another meet he was unable to get 875 (or something close) to even touch his chest! What the heck does it mean to do 875 if you can barely lower the bar to your chest?

Other than from the competitive aspect I can no longer get excited about any records in powerlifting (other than the deadlift) due to the ridiculous equipment some federations allow.

DK
07-13-2003, 08:07 PM
It looks like the world bench is getting closer to the world dead.

synthetic
07-13-2003, 08:19 PM
what equipment would be ridiculous?

Wu36
07-13-2003, 10:00 PM
Originally posted by dkliewer
It looks like the world bench is getting closer to the world dead.

It may very well surpass it, since there's no real equipment for deads.

Neil
07-13-2003, 11:07 PM
I agree with Chris.

What was the prior record?

Alex.V
07-14-2003, 07:38 AM
There's a problem in powerlfiting, I'm sorry to say. Say what you want about all sports having equipment, but no sports have world records broken by over 9% in a few months, with no appreciable performance increase in the athletes.

I believe equipment is here to stay, but this seems a little beyond ridiculous. It's hard to get excited about 875, it really is, because it almost ceases to have meaning.

That said, congratulations to him. Unbelievable feat, it truly is. But I'm worried about where the sport will go after this.

Turboboy
07-14-2003, 07:51 AM
Thanks for the vid! That was amazing! I agree the equipment is getting out of hand. I'm sure he is well into the mid to high 600's raw, maybe even more. Still damn impressive either way!

Xg74
07-14-2003, 08:51 AM
His best raw is in the 700's.

Ironman8
07-14-2003, 10:17 AM
Nice! I wish I was his spotter :)

chris mason
07-14-2003, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by Xg74
His best raw is in the 700's.


Right, I have seen 711. In any event, there are obviously a few very incredibly strong guys out there. We don't need the shirts etc. to make powerlifting exciting. Heck, Don Reinhoudt totalled 2420 without any equipment other than a belt (1975)! So why allow the bull**** equipment which allows a guy to bench 160 ish lbs more than his muscles are capable of lifting alone. That's roughly a 23% increase in the lift. What is the point? Is 711 lbs too wimpy? Lol, it really is a joke.

I want to know what a man can lift wearing a belt and nothing else other than street clothes. I would think that any competitive individual would want to know that. I don't want to know what a man can lift with a bench shirt that won't even allow him to touch 875 lbs to his chest!!! How goofy is that?

You know, what is the difference between that and what a guy named Jimmy Pelecchia (or something like that) used to do. He would perform "assisted" bench presses with over 700 lbs. There would be a "spotter" doing a bent over row with the bar while he benched. The guy was considered to be somewhat of a joke, kind of like the synthol guy with the 26" arms which exploded.

With some of these bench shirts, the shirt is doing as much of the lifting as the other guy's "spotter".

Powerlifting, like bodybuilding is being promoted in a completely asinine manner. Neither sport will grow in popularity in the way it can if matters are allowed to persist in the current fashion.

FortifiedIron
07-14-2003, 11:08 AM
I'll be the fist person to tell you, I'am not big on equipment.. but I seen NO reason why this shouldnt seem impressive to you. The reason 875 didnt touch in his other meet was cuss he had weight problems and the shirt wasnt fitting properly.


I dont see how you can disregard this lift, it was solid and flawless. He puased for a VERY long time with that much weight over him.

As for the shirt doing as much work as the spotter.. tell me where the shirt is at lockout? Id love to see some of you guys board press or rack press 875 or even 900 pounds.


Kc

FortifiedIron
07-14-2003, 11:11 AM
oo and btw.. his raw bench is WELL over 713 now. More or less around 750. I'll be sure to ask him next time i talk to him.


Kc

Paul Stagg
07-14-2003, 12:14 PM
I'd like to see football players play without all the body armor.

But it's become part of the game.

Wu36
07-14-2003, 12:19 PM
No doubt it's still an insane lift, I just think that it seems a bit warped with the steadily improving bench and the relatively unchanged deadlift records.

Maki Riddington
07-14-2003, 12:23 PM
The point many of you are either ignoring or overlooking is, "why allow bull**** equipment which allows a guy to bench 160 ish lbs more than his muscles are capable of lifting alone."

If the goal is to lift as much as you can that's fine. However, it should be acknowledged that it was an "assisted" lift.

Imo, I don't think that the fact that these kind of lifts are being assisted are being acknolwedged as much as they should be.

body
07-14-2003, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by Paul Stagg
I'd like to see football players play without all the body armor.

But it's become part of the game.

its called rugby.:D

Turboboy
07-14-2003, 01:19 PM
Wow, a 750 RAW bench is crazy!!! I have to agree that I would never get close to even getting that much weight off the rack! lol! Does anyone even know what the highest RAW bench is?

benchmonster
07-14-2003, 02:09 PM
I thought this was a powerlifting forum.

You guy's need to grow up re: the equipment issue. Equipment is just as much a part of powerlifting as pads are a part of football, and just as much as fiberglass poles are a part of the pole vault.

Equipment is there to allow a person to lift more weight safely. There are far fewer shoulder and pec injuries because of the shirts. People are also able to bench press more weight than they used to.

And please tell me you were joking re: not being impressed with an 800+ bench press. This guy is the only guy to press this kind of weight in an actual meet. Ryan Kennelly did 800 in an exhibition, and Gene Rychlek, Anthony Clark and Bill
Crawford have all scared 800, but nobody has ever attempted more than 805 in a meet except for Mendelson.

He just pressed 70 lbs more in competition than the next closest guy has even attempted (and missed). Mendy has done 90 lbs more than the next closest guy has ever done in a legitimate competition. Crawford's 785 is the biggest other than Mendy ever done in competition.

The equipment issue has been debated ad nauseum on countless forums, and over many a beer. But know this. The equipment is here to stay. The big guns are using it, and if you want to be competitive, you better get used to it too. Equipment manufacturers in powerlifting, just as in golf, are often the ones to sponsor events.

In a very real way, there would be no powerlifting as we know it today without equipment. No sponsorship, means no competitions. No competitions means no sport.

And don't start with me on strongman competitions not needing equipment sponsors. Strongmen use tacky, and straps (neither allowed in powerlifting) and when they do the rare true strength event, such as a platform squat, almost all competitors wear powersuits. And strongman is much more entertaining to watch, so it can survive on its merits as a spectator sport. It is just not that exciting for a non-lifter to watch some guy squat, bench or deadlift a bunch of weight.

And Maki, the goal in powerlifting is "to lift as much weight as you can" that is precisely what the goal of that competitive sport is. He who lifts the most wins. Similar to track and field, where he who runs fastest wins, or he who throws farthest wins. It is not about who is truly the strongest, or who can do the most reps, or who looks the best, or anything else. It is about who can do the most weight under the rules of the organization. And if the organization allows double denim shirts, and belts, and wrist and knee wraps, then you better be using those things, cause your competition sure is.

Think about this for a moment. Would you go buy a stock Corvette and try and enter a NASCAR event?

Of course not. NASCAR cars have twice the horsepower and go almost 100 mph faster. The Corvette driver would have no chance in that competition. But, he would be proving he is old school. And he would be proving he is truly doing "stock" car racing. But he would not be on an even playing field and he would be a fool to do so and expect to compete.

Nobody asks baseball players to field a ball without a glove, or a sprinter to run without spikes, or a NASCAR driver to drive a car off a dealer's lot, but there are always a bunch of yahoos, who hate seeing people so much stronger than they are, who are very willing to say that competitive athletes in a strength sport should not be using protective and performance enhancing equipment.

Frankly, nobody that has not competed has room to talk on this issue. I recall a parable about walking a mile in a man's shoes. . .

B.

benchmonster
07-14-2003, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by Turboboy
Wow, a 750 RAW bench is crazy!!! I have to agree that I would never get close to even getting that much weight off the rack! lol! Does anyone even know what the highest RAW bench is?

Scott Mendelson's 713 done in competition within the last 6 months or so, was the most weight anyone has ever pressed RAW in competition. This beat James Henderson's 711 which has stood as the all time highest RAW mark for many years. Mendelson and Henderson are the only two men to have ever gone over 700 RAW.

B.

HahnB
07-14-2003, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by benchmonster
I thought this was a powerlifting forum.

You guy's need to grow up re: the equipment issue. Equipment is just as much a part of powerlifting as pads are a part of football, and just as much as fiberglass poles are a part of the pole vault.

Equipment is there to allow a person to lift more weight safely. There are far fewer shoulder and pec injuries because of the shirts. People are also able to bench press more weight than they used to.

And please tell me you were joking re: not being impressed with an 800+ bench press. This guy is the only guy to press this kind of weight in an actual meet. Ryan Kennelly did 800 in an exhibition, and Gene Rychlek, Anthony Clark and Bill
Crawford have all scared 800, but nobody has ever attempted more than 805 in a meet except for Mendelson.

He just pressed 70 lbs more in competition than the next closest guy has even attempted (and missed). Mendy has done 90 lbs more than the next closest guy has ever done in a legitimate competition. Crawford's 785 is the biggest other than Mendy ever done in competition.

The equipment issue has been debated ad nauseum on countless forums, and over many a beer. But know this. The equipment is here to stay. The big guns are using it, and if you want to be competitive, you better get used to it too. Equipment manufacturers in powerlifting, just as in golf, are often the ones to sponsor events.

In a very real way, there would be no powerlifting as we know it today without equipment. No sponsorship, means no competitions. No competitions means no sport.

And don't start with me on strongman competitions not needing equipment sponsors. Strongmen use tacky, and straps (neither allowed in powerlifting) and when they do the rare true strength event, such as a platform squat, almost all competitors wear powersuits. And strongman is much more entertaining to watch, so it can survive on its merits as a spectator sport. It is just not that exciting for a non-lifter to watch some guy squat, bench or deadlift a bunch of weight.

And Maki, the goal in powerlifting is "to lift as much weight as you can" that is precisely what the goal of that competitive sport is. He who lifts the most wins. Similar to track and field, where he who runs fastest wins, or he who throws farthest wins. It is not about who is truly the strongest, or who can do the most reps, or who looks the best, or anything else. It is about who can do the most weight under the rules of the organization. And if the organization allows double denim shirts, and belts, and wrist and knee wraps, then you better be using those things, cause your competition sure is.

Think about this for a moment. Would you go buy a stock Corvette and try and enter a NASCAR event?

Of course not. NASCAR cars have twice the horsepower and go almost 100 mph faster. The Corvette driver would have no chance in that competition. But, he would be proving he is old school. And he would be proving he is truly doing "stock" car racing. But he would not be on an even playing field and he would be a fool to do so and expect to compete.

Nobody asks baseball players to field a ball without a glove, or a sprinter to run without spikes, or a NASCAR driver to drive a car off a dealer's lot, but there are always a bunch of yahoos, who hate seeing people so much stronger than they are, who are very willing to say that competitive athletes in a strength sport should not be using protective and performance enhancing equipment.

Frankly, nobody that has not competed has room to talk on this issue. I recall a parable about walking a mile in a man's shoes. . .

B.

I agree with a lot of what you said, except I have never seen a nascar that can go 290 mph.

benchmonster
07-14-2003, 03:28 PM
Good point, I was a bit off on that one re: the Corvette speed vs. NASCAR speed, but then, a stock Corvette is not running 190 either.

I realize they do have one model that is doing that, but not the stock, standard model.

But I believe at this point we are splitting hairs.

B.

chris mason
07-14-2003, 04:17 PM
The car racing analogy is no good. In car racing the driver is testing his skill with a tool, the car. The racer is trying to use his skill, not power, to get the most out of the car.

Powerlifting, from the beginning, was supposed to be a test of how much one can lift. That would be one man, not one man and all of his paraphernalia. In truth Bench, you really don't know a lot about the history of the sport, do you? For many years the wraps etc. were strictly prohibited. The equipment has perverted the sport.

A better analogy than your car racing story might be a basketball player wearing springs in his shoes. This would allow him to jump higher. Oh wait, they already have basketball on trampolines, what do they call it, Slamball or something?

How about we allow sprinters to wear little rocket packs which would allow them to shave a second or two off of their times? That would be just like a bench shirt in powerlifting, eh? Would that be cool?

Before you get off on the track analogy, I will say this, all athletes should have to wear the same exact shoes and the tracks should be made of the same exact material for as long as track records are kept. That would keep things equal and we would see who really was the fastest throughout history.

You see, part of athletic competition is the glory of being the best (if you are), and not just the best now, the best ever. Unfortunately, only a powerlifter who outlifts the guys of yesteryear raw can claim to be the best ever.

Now, I know the strongest guys of today are incredible. I know that Mendelson has done over 700 raw, although if you watch the video (I have one of him doing 701) he had virtually no pause. I don't know if his 713 was the same way. I also don't know how raw he was from the video because he is wearing a very dark, tight shirt. I will assume he was raw. That lift impresses me a heck of a lot more than the 875 lbs. The reason it does is because man to man he outlifted Kaz. He also outlifted Jim Williams. Now I can put him somewhere in the history of the sport.

As long as the shirts are legal (and other equipment) I have no problem with someone wearing them for the sake of that particular competition. I will say that whoever lifted the most was the strongest that day, with that equipment. I cannot say any more than that because the equipment prohibits a valid comparison vs. the greats of the day when equipment wasn't allowed.

As to this being a powerlifting forum, I have been on other powerlifting sites and the argument continues there. There are many lifters against equipment just as there are many for it. I have a suspicion that the one's for it are the people who reap the most benefit from the equipment.

One more thing, Paul, the football analogy is also poor. The pads in football actually slow the players down a bit. The padding is to protect them from the impact injuries they might otherwise sustain. The equipment doesn't allow one man to run faster, block harder, catch better, or throw better. In fact, other than blocking or tackling, it can have the opposite effect.

Alex.V
07-14-2003, 04:25 PM
benchmonster- I fully agree with all your points. I just believe it's a shame that powerlifting is becoming more and more specific of a sport, with equipment being a necessity. This, in my opinion, distances it from regular folks, and I'd honestly like to see it becoming MORE accessible.

Of course, this is all moot. But I would be happier seeing the bench record be 713. I think that's my point. It has more significance to me. Then again, that's meaningless too, since powerlifting is becoming more and more of an independent sport.

Maybe the wrong thread to have this debate in. Either way, the guy is amazing, his feat will go in the books, and nobody can say he doesn't possess incredible bench strength.

I do disagree, though, that those who have not competed don't have room to talk. At the end of the day, powerlifting is so appealing to many of us because it is a direct offshoot of a discipline that many non-competitors practice. So, while these opinions may really be worthless, I still do think they have some validity. People comment on sports constantly when they have never competed in them.

I guess, at the end of the day, what I'd like to see is a more consistency in equipment allowances, simply because the nature of what is essentially a sport of pure human achievement allows massive performance increases from auxiliary equipment. But, again, wrong thread! :)

Maki Riddington
07-14-2003, 04:57 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by benchmonster
[B]

You guy's need to grow up re: the equipment issue. Equipment is just as much a part of powerlifting as pads are a part of football, and just as much as fiberglass poles are a part of the pole vault.

*** Maybe you need to step outside your line of thinking?

Equipment is there to allow a person to lift more weight safely. There are far fewer shoulder and pec injuries because of the shirts. People are also able to bench press more weight than they used to.

*** Bench, if they can not lift the weight without an aid because of the risk of injury then they can not lift the weight.

And Maki, the goal in powerlifting is "to lift as much weight as you can" that is precisely what the goal of that competitive sport is. He who lifts the most wins. Similar to track and field, where he who runs fastest wins, or he who throws farthest wins. It is not about who is truly the strongest, or who can do the most reps, or who looks the best, or anything else. It is about who can do the most weight under the rules of the organization. And if the organization allows double denim shirts, and belts, and wrist and knee wraps, then you better be using those things, cause your competition sure is.

*** Not to be rude, but what exactly is your point? I simply stated that it should be acknowledged that it was not a raw lift. It would be much more impressive to myself and many others if it was not equipped.

Equipped it is one damn impressive lift!! But from my point of view, I do not believe in using equpiment to aid my lifts. If I can not lift a weight using my own strength then I CAN NOT lift the weight period!!!

HahnB
07-14-2003, 05:50 PM
eh, a 03 vette will do 185 no problem, 190 possibly. A Z06 will do 190 no problem.

Saturday Fever
07-14-2003, 06:38 PM
Well stated.

ElPietro
07-14-2003, 07:30 PM
Maki, are you aware that powerlifting is a sport? Why would they need to say it's assisted? Does every sport go through the rules everytime something is done? If you know the sport then you know the guy is wearing a shirt. Since these are allowed, and most use them, then it's more of a valid point to make mention when a lift is raw, since it's less commonplace, and means that the lifter is lifting with a self-imposed disadvantage. When someone lifts in a powerlifting meet, it's understood he is using equipment and powerlifting form and will cheat his ass off to lift as much as humanly possible so long as the judges still pass it.

If I was comparing my bench to someone who doesn't powerlift, then I will start explaining raw versus equiped and maybe give a couple different numbers, but in the actual sport there is no need to explain the basics every single lift that's made.

One thing I don't like about powerlifting though, is that there are so many organizations, and some are strict, others loose, and some allow different equipment then others. So even federation to federation, you can't compare apples to apples. From what I've seen/heard, at least half of the US federations allow lifts with form that wouldn't come close to passing in IPF which is regarded as the largest and strictest plifting federation worldwide.

Maki Riddington
07-14-2003, 08:47 PM
Originally posted by ElPietro
Maki, are you aware that powerlifting is a sport? Why would they need to say it's assisted? Does every sport go through the rules everytime something is done? If you know the sport then you know the guy is wearing a shirt. Since these are allowed, and most use them, then it's more of a valid point to make mention when a lift is raw, since it's less commonplace, and means that the lifter is lifting with a self-imposed disadvantage. When someone lifts in a powerlifting meet, it's understood he is using equipment and powerlifting form and will cheat his ass off to lift as much as humanly possible so long as the judges still pass it.

If I was comparing my bench to someone who doesn't powerlift, then I will start explaining raw versus equiped and maybe give a couple different numbers, but in the actual sport there is no need to explain the basics every single lift that's made.



*** I simply stated that it should be acknowledged that it was not a raw lift. It would be much more impressive to myself and many others if it was not equipped. I'm well aware of what is deemed a sport and what is not. Don't insult my intellegence with smart ass remarks like that.

What I'm saying is that although equpiment is accepted, I don't agree with it. Just as many people don't agree with certain rules in sports.

Saturday Fever
07-14-2003, 11:12 PM
This is the "bodybuilder" mentality sneaking in here. It's powerlifting. The sport allows equipment and always will. And regardless if he was wearing a shirt or not, he followed the rules of the meet and lifted an amount that nobody has come close to. Would the lift have passed in a different meet with stricter rules on equipment? Maybe, maybe not. That's besides the point. The point here is that he set a record in a meet he was in, following the rules of the meet. It was a great lift. Shirt or not, that's a lot of weight to lockout. Kudos to him for the lift.

Everyone wants to get all bent and say how unfair it is, or how the old lifters didn't use equipment, and that's fine. They didn't. So there isn't a fair way to compare the lifters. But instead of trying to compare and justify or disqualify, just say, "Damn, good job." Strive to better yourself. Let's stop worrying about what others have done or how they did it. Acknowledge what he did was a good job and continue improving ourselves.

Alex.V
07-14-2003, 11:32 PM
SF, well said.


Completely missed the point of the entire debate, but still well said.

noraa
07-15-2003, 02:01 AM
This is the "bodybuilder" mentality sneaking in here.Bodybuilder mentality should also see the point of view of being assisted.
In the extremes of sports, people do not care how they got the weight up, or how they got their size. They just want to see some freak doing stuff other people have never before done.
IF scott wants to put on a double denim shirt, or Ronnie coleman wants to plug his butt with a few needles, who cares. Its within the relm of the sport, then they can do it.
If your a bodybuilder benching and complaining that these guys are cheating, get over it. Every professional sports push the absolute limit of the rules, to try and do one thing - WIN.
I absolutely HATE getting into my bench shirt, and I only use a single ply inzer blast. I hate wearing it, I hate benching in it. But I know that I have to if I want to be anywhere near competitive.

ElPietro
07-15-2003, 06:53 AM
Originally posted by Maki Riddington


*** I simply stated that it should be acknowledged that it was not a raw lift. It would be much more impressive to myself and many others if it was not equipped. I'm well aware of what is deemed a sport and what is not. Don't insult my intellegence with smart ass remarks like that.

What I'm saying is that although equpiment is accepted, I don't agree with it. Just as many people don't agree with certain rules in sports.

Ok, so I guess baseball announcers should start explaining to fans how each catch of a fly ball wasn't barehanded either? If you want to take such comments as an insult that's fine, all I'm doing is explaining how things are. It's a sport, and has absolutely nothing to do with bodybuilding, and really isn't even a matter of strength. It's a matter of putting up as much weight as humanly possible, within the context of the rules, or even outside the rules if they can get it passed the judges. Why this debate keeps coming up is beyond me.

chris mason
07-15-2003, 07:55 AM
The argument keeps coming up because many people think the equipment is a stupid practice.

To say that powerlifting will always allow equipment is as naive as someone who might have said they will never allow it. Unless you can see the future you should not speak in such terms.

Noraa, you make a good point, much like the one a steroid user might make. I hate it, but I have to in order to be competitive. Is that how things should be? The obvious answer is no.


As to the protective aspect, that is a crock of ****! It used to be said that knee wraps were to "protect" the knees. I suspect that is how their use permeated the sport as originally only guaze wraps or rubber wraps were used for people who had a medical excuse. Well, in reality, knee wraps provide almost no protection and can, in fact, have the opposite effect.

If a powerlifter has an injury he should rehabilitate it and allow to heal, not try to train around it with a shirt.

You can call this whatever mentality you like, but I have a love for all of the disciplines within the iron game and I think the equipment in powerlifting sucks!

benchmonster
07-15-2003, 07:58 AM
Chris Mason,

I know a lot of Monday Morning Quarterbacks, and sports historian types love to debate how so and so compares against the greats from the past. But the sport has evolved, just as many other sports have evolved. Better poles for the pole vault, better shoes and tracks for running, aluminum bats for college baseball players, slick suits for olympic swimmers, springy floors for gymnasts, pads and helmets for football players, shall I go on?

Baseball in the pro level seems to have kept to its roots best, but go pick up a modern thin handled machine turned bat, and compare it to the hunk of timber Babe Ruth swung and tell me there have been no advances. Also, what about the ball being wound tighter? What about the bigger and more specialized gloves? Should we all be playing in wool suits like they did in the dead ball era?

And re: the old days, and my knowledge, or lack thereof. I am familiar with Reinhoudt, Kaz, Pat Casey, and many of the pioneers of the sport of powerlifting. Are you familiar with the practices of wearing tight blue jeans to squat, or placing tennis balls behind the knees, or wearing tight elbow wraps to bench? All of these nefarious practices went on back in the "good old days" of powerlifting. Also a bottle of test was about 6 bucks back then.

Fred Hatfield had the squat racks pulled out from under him on his famous 1000+ squat, and he wore knee wraps made out of the same material as a jock strap waistband. Both very innovative for the time.

And Maki, if you were simply stating that it was not a RAW lift, that is fine. But we already knew that. Also, I believe you used language such as you did not respect the lift cause it was assisted. That is not just pointing out that it was not a RAW lift.

Chris, I realize there are a few RAW pundits still out there in the world of powerlifting. But they are few and far between, and are not among the serious competitors. Rickey Dale Crain (800 squat and 700+ deadlift at 165) once said something to the effect that there is no such thing as RAW powerlifting, indicating that the sport has moved on, and those who are clinging to RAW have been left behind.

All sports move forward, whether it be powerlifting, track and field, football, whatever. You have 2 choices. Move with the sport, or get left behind. There really is no other way to look at it, if you are a competitive athlete in these disciplines. The biggest Jesse Owens fan in the world, despite all kinds of talent, is not going to run a 9.79 if he is running in heavy, old fashioned shoes, running on a dirt track, or using a spade to dig his own starting blocks.

Got to get with the times guys. We can't live in the past.

B.

Paul Stagg
07-15-2003, 08:08 AM
I don't think this discussion gets us anywhere.

chris mason
07-15-2003, 09:57 AM
Yes Bench, I am familiar with those practices and they were considered cheating . If the person was caught they would be disqaulified.

You might want to wonder why cheating has become an accepted practice. I don't have rose tinted glasses about the past, I realize there have always been cheats and bad people. I also realize that equipment is allowed these days and I don't like it.

As to your baseball analogy, or track, or anything else, nothing quite compares to the degree of advantage the powerlifting equipment allows.

Finally, I can see that you will not be swayed. It is obvious to me that you are a "win at any cost" type. You love steroids, powerlifting equipment, and who knows what else.

Personally, I like to see a competition between two men and their unaided abilities. I further believe that the pursuit of any sport it should not be necessary to compromise one's health, sports should promote the opposite, good health.

Paul Stagg
07-15-2003, 10:16 AM
Were the steroids the 'old time' powerlfting greats used also cheating?

Powerlifting isn't much older than steroids are.

WillKuenzel
07-15-2003, 10:26 AM
I wonder if the equipment is becoming more and more acceptable inorder to push more weight just for the sake of drawing larger crowds or increasing the fan base. For the normal person who doesn't know about shirts and belts and wraps a 800lbs bench is quite a bit more impressive than 700lbs. They might be more likely to want to go see someone do that amount of weight.

I think these days its becoming more and more about finding the things that can push every sport just a little bit more. They've changed the surface on tracks from asphalt to rubber, moved to lighter weight material for the shoes, moved from bamboo poles to fiberglass. Anymore you can't compare the best today with the best of yesterday in almost any sport. You can't in baseball, you can't in basketball. Hell you can't do it for any olympic sport maybe except the olympic lifts. Golf has changed, swimming has changed. Everything is moving on.

It just doesn't get as exciting for most people if they don't see some record broken or attempted. People seem to be losing the thrill of the competition and more towards wanting to see records broken. Hell, any kind of record. It seems to more and more acceptable to use more stuff inorder to get it done to please the masses because they grow tired of seeing that brick wall of phyiscal limits. They want to see new things done whether it be done with or without equipment.

Those of us that know don't always care for the direction things are going (and some of us just don't care) but I think its being done more for the masses than anything else. Sure some guys would be so bold as to say they are the greatest of all time but the real athletes would be able to tell you that its tough to compare. Those are the true sportmans and athletes.

Fenbay
07-15-2003, 12:27 PM
Frankly this debate could be put to sleep oh so easily. Have all professional level events take the average of a raw and gear lift. Viola. My god I'm a genius!

What happens when the fibers they're working on now which contract exactly like muscles do becomes main-stream. This isn't sciene fiction either. It's being developed as we speak. I can see in 20 years gear assisted lifts being in the 1-ton range. No joke.

This debate goes on because it's a manifestation of a bigger social issue. Technology becomes so intertwined in our day to day living that we take it for granted. I'm all for it. I'm much happier that fields get plowed by diesel engined machines than poor farmers and a mule working their asses off. <lame analogy, but you see where I'm going>

Basically, I think mankind will probably one day become cyborgs. Who would turn down the opportunity to wear certain types of clothes or even have technology implanted into them that would allow one to exceed normal human limitations 5 fold or more.

So looking to the future this all goes back to my first paragraph. Problem solved. Heh.

benchmonster
07-15-2003, 02:04 PM
Chris Mason,

I hope you realize I do respect you, and am debating you with no ill will. That said. . .

Sports are not about enhancing health my friend. Sports are about competition. Competition is about doing what you can to win. When you refer to me as a win at all costs individual, I will not argue. I take it as a compliment.

However, I do not cheat. I do not enter RAW meets with a shirt, nor would I try to cheat a drug test, nor would I try to enter a single ply meet with a double shirt. I know of a lot of lifters who lift in supposedly clean/RAW/single ply feds who do try to cheat the rules. My fed has relatively few rules, mostly just there to govern the completion of a lift, therefore the playing field is, IMO, more level.

I think the only level playing field is an unlimited division non-tested Open competition. That way anything goes, so nobody has an advantage over anyone else. If you have limitations on equipment, or require a drug test, then those who have the ability to get around those rules have a huge advantage over everyone else competing, and that is not fair.

And I don't want to hear any whining from anyone about how we should all be able to compete on a RAW and clean playing field. There is no way that can happen with absolute certainty, and more importantly, the big guns of the sport have no interest in competing under such conditions.

Home Yeild,

I appreciate your sentiments, but must disagree with you. Powerlifting is not at all a mainstream sport, and I don't think it ever will be. Most hardcore lifters I know realize this, and most, myself included are not too upset about it. I personally would like to see powerlifting in the X-games, but doubt it will happen, so I am happy to see it just the way it is, a back alley sport attracting only a few maniacs to compete.

We don't compete because we want to be healthier, or look prettier, or to have everybody think we are attractive or cool. We compete because there is something seriously wrong with us, and we must compete to cope with our mental and emotional imbalances. I compete because I am a competiton freak. I have been a competitive athlete since age 4, and I just have to compete in something.

If I was too old, too crippled, or whatever to compete in powerlifting, then I would be playing poker, or domino's or something. Just got to do it.

B.

Brandon7775643
07-15-2003, 03:37 PM
Couple observations:

1) Chris seems to be asserting that the sport would be "better" without equipment. Bench seems to be asserting that an individual would be insane to not use all the equipment allowed at an event. These two viewpoints aren't incompatable at all.

I think it would be perfectly reasonable to use every bit of equipment allowed at a meet, all the while advocating that the sport would be a better thing overall if it were gone. Is the sport really any better by having a shirt perform a signifigant portion of the lift for you?

2) Bench - The shirts people are wearing are now accounting for somewhere around 20% of the lift. I can't think of any other sport where the margin of difference is so large via equipment. Everywhere else, equipment allows small marginal increases. Here, I think you'd agree that 20% -- good or bad -- is pretty signifigant.

That said, I'm interested in knowing if you would ever have a problem with equipment. If so, at what point would you would be uncomfortable with the lift? 30%? 50%? 95%? Certainly there must be some point at which things just become silly, and if there, why not at 20%?

Maki Riddington
07-15-2003, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by ElPietro


Ok, so I guess baseball announcers should start explaining to fans how each catch of a fly ball wasn't barehanded either? If you want to take such comments as an insult that's fine, all I'm doing is explaining how things are. It's a sport, and has absolutely nothing to do with bodybuilding, and really isn't even a matter of strength. It's a matter of putting up as much weight as humanly possible, within the context of the rules, or even outside the rules if they can get it passed the judges. Why this debate keeps coming up is beyond me.

*** I am saying what I'm saying because I don agree with the set rules that are currently in use. This view does not make any less educated about this sport.

Maki Riddington
07-15-2003, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by benchmonster


And Maki, if you were simply stating that it was not a RAW lift, that is fine. But we already knew that. Also, I believe you used language such as you did not respect the lift cause it was assisted. That is not just pointing out that it was not a RAW lift.


B.

*** I have great admiration for these great feats of strength that are displayed. However, I do not like the fact that these accomplishments are performed via the use of equipment. To me it takes away from the lift. Why, because I don't agree with the rules!

DK
07-15-2003, 05:17 PM
I think we have two groups here. Those who want to compete and those who probably won't ever compete. If you want to compete in a federation, you will have to wear equipment to have a chance. (unless you just want to go raw and lose)

I don't know where you got that information or if it is correct, but I'll go with it. Personally I don't feel like a bench shirt "assisting" you with 20% of the lift is such an awful thing. There are other sports that have progressed to equipment that would add 20% of an advantage for the player. There are a few that have already been mentioned, like the nascar one. I would start getting uncomfortable with the lift if the shirt automatically did the lift for you.

If you guys need your lifts raw, maybe you could start your own federation someday, something like the WPO where you could give away cash. All the lifts would be raw. just a thought.

Maki Riddington
07-15-2003, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by dkliewer
I think we have two groups here. Those who want to compete and those who probably won't ever compete. If you want to compete in a federation, you will have to wear equipment to have a chance. (unless you just want to go raw and lose)



*** I will compete at some point in my life, and I will do it using no equipment, not even a belt. I will do it because of the pleasure I get from being able to lift a weight by myself with no aid in the heat of a competition.

DK
07-15-2003, 05:32 PM
Good for you. You hold strongly to what you believe in. I hope you do well.

chris mason
07-15-2003, 06:08 PM
I am not implying that using equipment is cheating. Using steroids is cheating unless the federation allows for it (in the most technical sense). I do realize that essentially everyone uses them, thus making them less of a cheating issue (if everyone cheats, then is it cheating?).

I fully realize the big guys in the 70s used steroids and there have always been those who try to push the rules. That was not my point. My point was that the rules did not allow for the equipment . Thus, the majority of the time, and almost every time a record was set the men were checked for cheating (with the exception of drugs). That to me was a better deal.

Bench, I have no issue with you as well. I was stating facts as I see them, not making a real judgement on those facts. I have my opinions, you have yours.

Dk, if all goes well, I fully plan to sponsor lifting related events someday and you can be sure I will share the wealth and make the rules as I see fit.

HahnB
07-15-2003, 07:37 PM
The only thing that bohters me about the equipment and steroids used in competitions is I think most of the people in these competitions would answer the question "how much did you bench?" with a simple poundage answer-as if they "forgot" to mention they really can't lift that much if you threw them on a bench in street clothes.

What they forget to mention is, I'm on steroids and I use eqipment that allows me to bench a significant amount more than I really can. Therefore, how impressive is this? The whole point of bragging about any lift is because one thinks that said lift is significantly more than what everyone else can do, but how impressive is that when steroids and special equipment are involved.

Not to knock anyone that does steroids, but I never understood the point of working out( a hobby that has always intended to make one healthier) if your just going to damage your body for the future. If health isn't a factor in working out then why not juice with a crazy dangerous cycle just to see if you can lift more, who cares if it hurts you, health isn't a issue.

What I think chris and a lot of other guys are saying here is what is the point of using the shirts if everyones lifts go up the same amount, what is the point of moving the sport in that direction. If everyones lifts are increased in equal proportions with the shirts then what is the freakin point of the shirt?

JuniorMint6669
07-16-2003, 01:35 AM
Lemme just squeek in here and give my $0.02. I dont know jack about the history of the sport. Ill be damned if I even know what a bench shirt is, looks like, or does. But when I see a guy jack up 800+ , I dont know how much was him, and how much was assisted. This is purely from a spectator point of view.
I lift weights, yet I cannot relate to this guy.
But when I watch baseball, I can relate, because I played baseball with the same style glove they use. When I watch football, they use the same padding I used when I played.

Now Ive never much been into watching swimming or nascar or pole vault, but maybe thats because I dont have a slick suit or a really fast car or a decent pole vault. I cannot relate to these sports, so I dont watch them.

So if you are wondering if its good for the sport to help it grow, then I would have to vote "no". I'll likely never PL competively because its not the way Ive lifted my whole life. I know many that feel the same.
Now if you are wondering if its good for the sport for the people already in it... well honestly, what does it matter? Just go jack up as much weight as you can. You'll get props from me because I couldnt do it. But you wouldnt get the same respect that I would give to someone who benched raw. Because I can compare myself to him. You'll get respect still, just the same respect as nascar drivers and pole vaulters. If you're fine with that, more power to ya

ElPietro
07-16-2003, 07:04 AM
Originally posted by JuniorMint6669
Now Ive never much been into watching swimming or nascar or pole vault, but maybe thats because I dont have a slick suit or a really fast car or a decent pole vault. I cannot relate to these sports, so I dont watch them.

So if you are wondering if its good for the sport to help it grow, then I would have to vote "no". I'll likely never PL competively because its not the way Ive lifted my whole life. I know many that feel the same.

So then by this logic, Nascar should now start only allowing civics, accords and ford focuses, so you can relate to it?

With any sport, if you haven't been exposed to it, it will most likely need to be explained to you. Why people view plifting as anything different is beyond me. It's a sport, not just a show of strength. So much of it is technique. I watched curling for years and only recently figured out how this lame game works. Funny I didn't ask them to change it for my tastes. Change must come from within the sport, if organizations keep changing things simply to appease those who don't compete, and know nothing about it, then there is no integrity left.

Everything has a different direction of progression, plifting has progressed to bigger lifts via the introduction of equipment. It's in the rules and thus the playing field is level. I'm sure you could try to become an outfielder in baseball and not use a glove, but why bother playing. Powerlifting is a competitive sport, but in the end, you are competing against yourself. So you are always free to wear no equipment. You will most likely not win, but you can at least hold to your ideals, so there is no equipment forced upon you.

benchmonster
07-16-2003, 08:03 AM
I wonder, and I bet I already know the answer to this, but I wonder who on this thread has ever competed in a powerlifting event?

My guess is that those who are so violently opposed to equipment are those who have not competed, and those in favor of equipment are those who have competed. Just a thought.

I think that the people opposed to powerlifting equipment fall into one of 2 categories:

1. I don't like equipment cause I can't compare the feats of the old timers to those of today (Chris Mason)

2. I don't like equipment cause I can't compare the inflated numbers equipment allows to my own numbers (most of the others who have chimed in)

To the people from the first group, you have a valid gripe, but your validity is never going to change the fact that the sport has moved in the direction of equipped lifts, and most serious lifters like it that way, and thus it will stay that way.

To the people from the second group. . . there is no way you are going to be able to relate to/compare with, or whatever else you want to call it, to the level of strength of a big time powerlifter, RAW, equipped, juiced, clean, or whatever.

Kim Brownfield, who is a friend of mine, and a 620 bencher at 220 has used the most advanced powerlifting equipment available throughout his whole career, and has never once got more than 30 lbs of assistance out of a shirt.

So now, all of you 590 benchers, who also weigh 220 lbs, step up and claim your rightful place besides Kim. . . come on, where are you?

I currently hold the OK state APF bench record in the 275 class with a 550, and I of course was wearing a shirt when I did it. My training partner that same day did a 905 squat, while wearing breifs, belt, knee wraps and a double denim squat suit. Oh, and my partner who did that is also a 500 bencher. Do you really think that the average guy on this board whining about how the equipment is doing all the work could train with us RAW?

And I am just a bit above average as a powerlifter. I am nothing special at all, and have competed for exactly 2 years as this is being written.

How many of you think you could lift RAW what Chuck Vogelpohl (1000+ squat at 220) lifts RAW? Anyone want to try to train with Garry Frank? Yeah, that superheavyweight who has benched over 700, squatted a grand and pulled 900+? But he isn't strong, he just uses a lot of equipment, right? Please.

It is very insulting to these people, and any serious competitive powerlifter when you go around saying that the equipment is doing all the work. I doubt very seriously that there are more than 2 or 3 members of this board that can handle the types of weights we work up to RAW before shirting up in the warmup area before a meet.

And re: the 20 percent help that the equipment gives you. . . I don't know where that number came from, but I know a ton of guys who would give their left nut for a 20% increase from equipment. 30 lbs out of 600 is more like a 5% increase I think.

B.

Maki Riddington
07-16-2003, 09:04 AM
You thought wrong.

ElPietro
07-16-2003, 09:28 AM
Mak, the good thing about the sport though, is that it IS an individual thing. You can't really compete against someone else. A lift is a lift, and it's 100% individual. You can use someone else as motivation but nothing more. So since it's an individual thing, and there is no rule saying you HAVE to use equipment, you can always enter raw, as I believe you mentioned. If I enter a meet anytime within the next 3-5 months, I will probably go in completely raw as well. From what I understand, many lifters will cheer for you doing this. Many of them don't like the equipment, but accept the fact that it's part of the sport. You may not win, but in the end, all you are doing is competing against yourself anyway, so just progress however you like, and realize that you are handicapping yourself only in relation to other lifters at a meet. If winning is a priority, then maybe raw isn't for you, but if sticking to your lifting ideals is more important, than there's nothing stopping you from lifting totally raw. :)

Even without equipment there are other technique tricks that if you can get a judge to pass it, will allow you to lift more weight.

HahnB
07-16-2003, 10:24 AM
LIke I said before, if everyone's lifts are increased by let's say the same 10% with a shirt then why use it at all? Why not just do a raw lift and everyone's lifts would be decreased by 10% and the same contestants would get 1st, 2nd, 3rd etc...

ARe power lifters not happy with raw lift numbers that they have to use shirts just to increase them?

It's like taking the long jump in the olympics and saying that ok from now on everyone is going to lealp off a spring board at the end of the track so everyone can jump farther. What would be the point of that? The better jumpers would still jump farther because everyone's advantage is increased equally. Just like with the shirts.l

NateDogg
07-16-2003, 10:43 AM
I believe one reason for the equipment is to keep interest in the sport. IMO, people are only going to get so strong. What is the raw bench record compared to what it was 30 years ago? Not much different if I recall. Therefore, to keep interest, equipment must be used to allow records to be broken.

The general population, again IMO, would be more interested in seeing a record broken, than seeing some guy bench the same amount that many others, over many years, have benched?

ElPietro
07-16-2003, 11:44 AM
HahnB, just so you know, since you seem to continue with this, is that the equipment isn't just some specific number straight across the board. If you take 10 people with the same raw bench, they'd probably all have different equiped benches using the exact same shirt. It may give some people significant aid, and others virtually none at all. Depending on where your weak point is, and how you can maximize the use of the shirt, there will be so many discrepancies, you cannot just say that a shirt helps each lifter x%, and is therefore the advantage gained is a constant. It doesn't work that way.

nejar462
07-16-2003, 01:42 PM
umm BM, i don't think they're saying powerlifters with equipment are weak or nething


they're just saying they'd like to see how the powerlifters lift raw, so they can compare themselves to them, Granted you're right, they may not be able to compare in the sense they're close to equal, but its still fun fof average lifters to see how much bigger/stronger the pros are. I don't see why you get so mad about people saying they'd rather see p,lifters go without shirts, I mean no one is saying they're weak, they're just saying what they'd rather see, maybe someone should actually listen so the more average guy can have more interest in it.

benchmonster
07-16-2003, 01:55 PM
I don't care for the average guy to have more interest.

This is not a sport for the masses. It is for FREAKS. And no strong man that I have ever known, talked to, or even read about that is competing today complains about equipment, with the exception of J.M. Blakely. And you know what J.M.'s complaint is? That he can't seem to get as much out of his equipment as others are getting out of theirs.

Those that understand need no explanation, and it is becoming increasingly obvious that for those who don't understand, no explanation will ever suffice.

B.

NateDogg
07-16-2003, 02:30 PM
BM, or anyone else who knows, what is the raw bench record now compared to 30 years ago?

NateDogg
07-16-2003, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by benchmonster


Scott Mendelson's 713 done in competition within the last 6 months or so, was the most weight anyone has ever pressed RAW in competition. This beat James Henderson's 711 which has stood as the all time highest RAW mark for many years. Mendelson and Henderson are the only two men to have ever gone over 700 RAW.

B.

Ok, I just found this in this thread. So the raw bench press record has increase 2 lbs over "many years." It seems that without equipment, the sport of powerlifting, with respect to the bench press at least, has basically been at a plateau for a long time. It was my assertion that equipment is there to allow lifters to go beyond that plateau, thus keeping interest in the sport.

BTW, how many meets have corporate sponsors?

I also want to point out that I have no problems with anyone using equipment that is legal in the meet they are in. I am just trying to provide some perspective as to why it is used, beyond protection for the lifter. If that were the only reason, why keep coming out with new materials, double and triple ply, equipment that will help you lift more?

chris mason
07-16-2003, 02:56 PM
Jim Williams did 675 in 1973 or 1974. The highest raw bench today is 711 to my knowledge. Not much difference, eh? Even with westside etc.

ElPietro
07-16-2003, 02:57 PM
Well I just recently helped out as a volunteer for an Ontario powerlifting meet. It was pretty big for a local meet. I think there were just over 30 competitors.

Everyone that is associated with the event is a volunteer. I basically worked all sunday from 10am to 10pm, and the main guys running it were there earlier, and also the night before.

Trust me that I doubt there has been a single plifting meet that has made money. The charge was $50 per competitor to enter, and the prizes were trophies. The trophies cost quite a bit, along with the renting of almost an entire bottom, basement of the hotel. You need a big room to actually hold the competition, with room for seating and all the weights and judges and other crap, then you need another room with weights for the competitors to warmup, and also a weigh in area.

Sponsorship is generally just the plifting equipment makers, and maybe the odd sponsor. I think we had Labrada and Biotest as sponsors there. They made up t-shirts and sold them, taking a pretty big loss on those.

But regardless, it seemed that it was routine for them to pack up at the end of the day, and wonder what their losses would come in at for the event.

So let's cut out equipment, and basically eliminate half of the potential sponsorship for these already "money-losing" ventures. I guess it would make the idealists happy.

HahnB
07-16-2003, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by ElPietro
HahnB, just so you know, since you seem to continue with this, is that the equipment isn't just some specific number straight across the board. If you take 10 people with the same raw bench, they'd probably all have different equiped benches using the exact same shirt. It may give some people significant aid, and others virtually none at all. Depending on where your weak point is, and how you can maximize the use of the shirt, there will be so many discrepancies, you cannot just say that a shirt helps each lifter x%, and is therefore the advantage gained is a constant. It doesn't work that way.

That not only makes the shirt pointless, but unfair as well.

Chris Rodgers
07-16-2003, 03:13 PM
Benchmonster has basically said everything I'd like to say and more. The equipment in in the sport and no going anywhere. I use it and it definitely aids my lifts. Like Chris has argued though, I keep within the limits of the federations I compete in and have no unfair advantage over anyone.....except maybe that I am a psycho when I lift. ;)



If you don't like it, I don't care. I don't jump in a bicep thread and start bashing people for doing cheat curls.

tuttut

Maki Riddington
07-16-2003, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by ElPietro
Mak, the good thing about the sport though, is that it IS an individual thing. You can't really compete against someone else. A lift is a lift, and it's 100% individual. You can use someone else as motivation but nothing more. So since it's an individual thing, and there is no rule saying you HAVE to use equipment, you can always enter raw, as I believe you mentioned. If I enter a meet anytime within the next 3-5 months, I will probably go in completely raw as well. From what I understand, many lifters will cheer for you doing this. Many of them don't like the equipment, but accept the fact that it's part of the sport. You may not win, but in the end, all you are doing is competing against yourself anyway, so just progress however you like, and realize that you are handicapping yourself only in relation to other lifters at a meet. If winning is a priority, then maybe raw isn't for you, but if sticking to your lifting ideals is more important, than there's nothing stopping you from lifting totally raw. :)

Even without equipment there are other technique tricks that if you can get a judge to pass it, will allow you to lift more weight.

*** Great post El.

DK
07-16-2003, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by HahnB


That not only makes the shirt pointless, but unfair as well.

There is nothing unfair here at all. Everybody has the chance to maximize their own potential for the shirt. For example if you just threw on a shirt you would get lesser bench than you would if you had been practicing in the shirt and knew the correct way to use it and stay in the groove.

Saturday Fever
07-16-2003, 05:58 PM
I wonder, and I bet I already know the answer to this, but I wonder who on this thread has ever competed in a powerlifting event?

I did and I got DQ'd for cheating as I failed the piss test. So the cheating vs. non-cheating argument is moot. If you cheat you get caught. If you follow the rules of the meet you get records.

Folks, it's not a huge deal. If you don't think it's a "legit" lift, then disregard it. In 20 years none of us are going to care. Rules evolve in all sports. Look at the big 3 sports (basketball, football, baseball) and see how many rules they've changed. It happens. It happened. If you choose not to accept a lift, then don't. It's not like it really matters in the grand scope of things.

Xg74
07-17-2003, 01:25 AM
Originally posted by HahnB


That not only makes the shirt pointless, but unfair as well.

No, the shirt is not pointless, it also exists as a safety device, taking strain off of the shoulders.

chris mason
07-17-2003, 01:52 PM
Just like knee wraps take the pressure off of the knees? Untrue.

Here is the bottom line, when I compete I will most likely use equipment in order to be competitive. Personally, I think it sucks that I have to.

Saturday Fever
07-17-2003, 03:11 PM
I prefer to think of them simply as "meets" and not "competitions." I am competing against myself, but just meeting with the other lifters.

Adam
07-17-2003, 05:05 PM
:withstupi

chris mason
07-17-2003, 06:34 PM
To wax philosophical, that, to me, is a loser's attitude. I will not enter a contest unless I have a chance of winning, or at least having a high lift in one of the 3. When I go into a meet, I want to win.

That's just me, I am not saying that other ideas are wrong.

noraa
07-18-2003, 03:13 AM
So if your in the 110kg class, and had the chance to compete against the likes of Ed Coan, you wouldnt lift becaue eddie would squat, bench and deadlift one absolute fork load?

I would be pleased to be lifting on the same platform as him.

I have a pile of medals/tropheys from PL meets, all of them get stuck away, because they mean nothing to me. THe most important thing is my own personal improvement.
I broke a local record last weekend, but that doesnt really matter because I didnt get the lift I was wanting.

benchmonster
07-18-2003, 08:30 AM
I am with Chris on this one. Why do we run the race? Why do we compete? To win.

I cannot outsquat or outdeadlift Ed Coan, and we are in the same weight class. But if Mr. Coan wants to venture over into a bench only meet, then he has a run for his money.

I compete to win. However, I will not duck someone I know to be stronger than me. Jason Jackson benches almost 100 lbs more than I do in the same weight class, and I have competed in meets with him several times. Unless he bombs, and I have never seen him bomb, then he will beat me. . . for now. But Jason is 7 or 8 years older than me, and has been competing for quite a bit longer than I have. So I am still competing to win, it just may take me a while to catch up to some of the top guys.

You don't get to great numbers, IMHO, by being satisfied with losing to other competitors, but at the same time, you don't get anywhere by staying in the gym and away from the competition platform, waiting to compete only when you are sure you can win.

The thing to do, I think, is to just get in there, enter the novice, or amatuer division first few times, and do the best you can. You will meet some great people, and you will learn a lot.

I have been competing for exactly 2 years this month, and in those 2 years I have managed to put on 195 lbs on my contest bench. I have absolutely no doubt at all, that I would not have improved that much if I had been satisfied with coming in less than first place, or if I had just lifted in the gym and not competed during that time.

Powerlifting is about competing, and competing is about doing your best to win. Sometimes you come up short, that is life. But don't be satisfied with that. Learn from your mistakes, build upon what you have been doing right, and keep pounding away, working harder and smarter, and before you know it, you will be the one people are talking about in warmups when your big opener is posted.

B.

chris mason
07-18-2003, 11:20 AM
Ok, tell me if this is lacking in logic. If your true drive in weightlifting was only to outperform your previous best, to improve, then why compete at all? You can do that at your gym or home.

The idea of meets, or competitions is to live up to the name. At a powerlifting meet, they rank the lifters, someone wins. As I have a competitive nature, if I go, I want to win and to know I have a good chance to do so. In other words, I want to be competitive .

If I had no desire to compete with anyone but myself, then I would not enter a competition.

What would be the point? If you want camaraderie, go watch the meet and mingle with the people. If you want to compete, join.

Thus, those who claim to only enter a meet in order to compete with themselves is not telling the whole story.

Alex.V
07-18-2003, 11:25 AM
Damn right. Good stuff, chris and bench.

body
07-18-2003, 01:06 PM
if i had a chance of winning a powerlifting comp i would enter. its not a team sport where some times you meet better or worse teams.

DK
07-18-2003, 06:47 PM
There are team powerlifting meets. At least in high school. The one I went to in February was a team meet, but you also particpated as a individual, so your team could win and you could win.

I didn't have a team, because sadly no one from my school is serious about weight lifting.

Chris Rodgers
07-18-2003, 07:45 PM
I understand your argument about competing to win, but you take it too far. I wold rather have some balls and take an ass whooping trying my best than back out or stay away because someone better is competing. That is a loser's attitude.

Besides, competing in a meet with a platform in front of a crowd and 3 judges watching you like hawks is a lot different than lifting more than last time in the gym. Anyone can brag about a gym lift, but if you couldn't get white lights it doesn't matter in my world.

Saturday Fever
07-18-2003, 07:46 PM
Naturally we will all differ on the meet vs. competition idea.

I would like to win. I would like to beat everyone else in my weight class. But more importantly, to me anyways, is that I constantly beat myself. This is probably attributed to my personality. If I'm beating myself, I'm thrilled. If I'm beating other lifters, that's just the icing on the cake for me.

If I someday start reaching numbers that are worthy of winning, perhaps my attitude will change a bit. but since I'm not out to show the other guys what's up, I'll continue to be happy just beating myself.

As far as competing with yourself at home or in the gym, I don't think that counts. Folks have said, and I believe, that in order for a lift to be legit, it has to be judged by a set of rules. Whether those rules call for RAW or double shirts or whatever, I think that's irrelevant to the idea. You can cheat at home more obviously when you're your only judge. It's taking those gym/home lifts in front of judges and doing it that makes it a true score. You can judge yourself at home, but under your rules, another lifter might gain another 50 pounds. Maybe you don't think the pause is as big a deal or you think it's perfectly legit to pause very very briefly.

Anyways, there's 2 more cents from me.

Chris Rodgers
07-18-2003, 07:47 PM
Just to touch on that a bit more, it's the same with training for anything. If you train with the best, you will get better. If you compete with them, you will get better.

noraa
07-18-2003, 10:31 PM
Originally posted by chris mason
If I had no desire to compete with anyone but myself, then I would not enter a competition.

What would be the point? If you want camaraderie, go watch the meet and mingle with the people. If you want to compete, join.

Thus, those who claim to only enter a meet in order to compete with themselves is not telling the whole story. [/B]

So, lets go back to my ed coan concept.

When Ed was competiting in the IPF, he was winning by huge margins. What was the point of him competing to maximal capacity? whats the point, he held the records, won the titles. There was nothing in it. Except wanting to improve HIMSELF.

I have been competing for 14 years, and still dont really care if I win a title or not. Its great on the nite, especially with hte beers and comraderie. But once back in the gym, its back to improving myself and getting myself better.

Ok, tell me if this is lacking in logic. If your true drive in weightlifting was only to outperform your previous best, to improve, then why compete at all? You can do that at your gym or home. IPF world meets are classed as team events. You lift in a team, and individually. Quite often coaches will put the team above chances of personal bests and teh like.

chris mason
07-19-2003, 08:22 AM
Ed was competing for the glory of the victory (and of setting higher records), don't fool yourself by thinking enything else.

One more time for those who don't get it. If you only want to try to better yourself, you don't need to compete with others. If you train using a certain depth on the squat, regardless of whether or not it would hold up in a contest, as long as you lift more than previously, you should achieve that inner satisfaction you guys speak of.

You will also note that I said those who claim to only compete against themselves are not telling the whole story. Latman talks about having balls and getting his ass beat being a good thing. The only truth in that statement is the fact that he likes to be able to state he has competed and that he is a powerlifter. There is no joy in losing, but there is prestiege and individuality in stating that you are a "powerlifter". The real reasons behind his competing are not so romantic as "having the balls". I think he also competes because he realizes he is good at the sport and has a very good chance of winning his weight class in many meets. He also kindles thoughts of one day being world class, which may very well be possible. These are the thoughts that drive him to compete, not "having the balls".

Noraa, you may very well not care if you win and may not feel you have a chance to win, but you don't compete against yourself, that is not the reason you enter meets. You just told us that. You compete for the prestiege of calling yourself a powerlifter, for the camaraderie, and for other unknown to me personal reasons.

As I said, I compete primarily to win. That is me. Other have different motivations, but nobody enters a meet to compete with themselves. That is a dichotomy. If you want to compete with yourself you don't need others. That statement is a commonly regurgitated folly which many people who cannot articulate their true feelings (or don't wish to) use.

WeakSauceAsian
07-19-2003, 01:18 PM
Nice post Chris.

Saturday Fever
07-19-2003, 01:56 PM
As I said, I compete primarily to win. That is me. Other have different motivations, but nobody enters a meet to compete with themselves. That is a dichotomy. If you want to compete with yourself you don't need others. That statement is a commonly regurgitated folly which many people who cannot articulate their true feelings (or don't wish to) use.

AWFULLY broad statement. And flawed as well. I don't compete with others. I don't need others. What I need are judges so that I know I lift by the same standards as everyone else.

Call it whatever you want, but I know when I say "I can squat X amount of pounds." that I can indeed, by all existing standards, squat X amount of pounds. Maybe self-esteem is in there somewhere. I'd rather have a squat or deadlift that meets a standard rather than have a "Monstar-style 600lb squat".

(no digs on anyone intended)

chris mason
07-19-2003, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by Saturday Fever


Call it whatever you want, but I know when I say "I can squat X amount of pounds." that I can indeed, by all existing standards, squat X amount of pounds. (no digs on anyone intended)

The key to eliminating your ignorance over your own motivations is to ask yourself why. I will answer for you. Your desire to say that you can squat X amount by certain standards stems from your desire to compare yourself to others. Standards are established to allow for comparison. Thus you are not really interested in competing with only yourself, you wish to be able to compare your lifts to others.

That is the same reason anyone cares about form and why the journal forums are so popular. We want to know what others can do so we can compare ourselves to them. There is no other reason to know what someone else does. The ONLY reason is to compare, to create a heirarchy of lifting abilites. Hmmmm, sounds a lot like the idea behind a competition.

This brings us rather nicely full circle right back to the equipment argument. As you can see, lifters all want to compare themselves to others. The advent of equipment use violates this basic human desire (comparison) with regards to comparing ourselves to anyone other than our contemporaries. The best lifters of today cannot compare themselves to greats of the past because they are wearing equipment which precludes it. We are cheating ourselves out of one of our most basic human desires, a pity.

noraa
07-19-2003, 07:40 PM
Its nice how chris knows why others compete, because obviously they do not know themselves.
Nobody ever wants to improve themselves, they just want to proove to others that they are better than them.

And if I wanted to compare myself to the old greats, how do I. Even in the IPF, different rules, different judges and different drugs.
No sport can compare themselves to the past

unshift
07-19-2003, 07:42 PM
what if someone just enjoys competing? win or lose, what's wrong with going out there and throwing some weight around and having a good time doing so?

personally, i don't compete, but i would consider entering a competition under certain circumstances... you get to hang out with some cool people and do something you enjoy, what's wrong with that? i know i'm not strong enough to win or even come close, but why not enter just for the fun of it? it's like intramural sports in school, everyone has a good time and then goes home

chris mason
07-20-2003, 09:30 AM
Nothing wrong with that at all. I never said there was. Remember, I stated my motivations were mine. Of course, again, if you just want the camaraderie aspect, why enter the meet if you know you cannot be competitive? There really could be very few motivations. If you wish to lift with no chance of winning, but want the experience of lifting with judges etc., that might be a motivation. Individual motivation is a very interesting thing.

One more thing Unshift, if someone just enjoys competing knowing they will lose what does that say about them? When we compete, we pit ourselves against others. If we do know knowing we will lose, why would we do that? Maybe in some circumstances we might be made a martyr. In others, it might be so that we may define ourselves as a "lifter", or a football player. Maybe it will give us the leverage in online arguments, you know, the "you only can speak if you have competed" argument. If no one expects us to win, maybe it is to get the accolades of a "good showing". So many possibilities, I suppose that is the point of my posts, those who ascribe certain motivations to their actions often do so with very little thought as to their real motivations.


Noraa, it is a sad fact that most people really don't know themselves as well as they might think. Most people are not very introspective and are far from honest with themselves.

chris mason
07-20-2003, 09:33 AM
Originally posted by noraa
Its nice how chris knows why others compete, because obviously they do not know themselves.
Nobody ever wants to improve themselves, they just want to proove to others that they are better than them.



Read your own statement. If you truly only cared about improving yourself then you would have no care to join a competition whose stated purpose is to have individuals compete with each other and be ranked. You would only be concerned with your own form with lifts, not that of others. To say anything else is pure folly.

unshift
07-20-2003, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by chris mason
if someone just enjoys competing knowing they will lose what does that say about them?

perhaps it says that that person finds the sport enjoyable? not everyone there is to "compete" the same way you are, so i really think you can only speak for yourself. look at the thousands of marathon runners who know for a fact they're going to get beat by some kenyan but still train for the big day and go out and run. why? .... why not? for some people, that sort of thing is fun. not everything is always about winning or losing

chris mason
07-20-2003, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by unshift


perhaps it says that that person finds the sport enjoyable? not everyone there is to "compete" the same way you are, so i really think you can only speak for yourself. look at the thousands of marathon runners who know for a fact they're going to get beat by some kenyan but still train for the big day and go out and run. why? .... why not? for some people, that sort of thing is fun. not everything is always about winning or losing


Ok, go with that, why is it fun? What makes it fun?

unshift
07-20-2003, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by chris mason

Ok, go with that, why is it fun? What makes it fun?

lifting weights. (or running, or whatever you're doing)

chris mason
07-20-2003, 05:35 PM
Lol, that has the be the most unthinking response (well, maybe not the most) I have ever seen.

Can you please expand upon that. Why is it fun? If it is fun, why do you need to do it with others?

unshift
07-20-2003, 05:59 PM
i would say "unthinking" is the most unthunk word i've ever seen :)

why is it fun? i don't know, because it's an activity i enjoy?

why do it with others? why not? it's more exciting that way, theres something about meeting with a bunch of people with similar intrests that makes things fun. anyhow, this is the 100th reply to a pretty worthless argument, so i'm going to stop here. its obvious we're never going to agree

ElPietro
07-21-2003, 07:17 AM
Well, my opinion is that there are many different forms of competition. Chris, it's kinda arrogant to tell others WHY they are entering meets. There can be more than one answer. You most certainly compete against yourself and enjoy it. Many enter the meets and have absolutely no chance of winning, unless every other lifter in their class blows a hammy or something. They come in last every time, but maybe get whites on their three lifts, and are 20lbs stronger than last event. These guys come in last, and go home smiling and perfectly happy. Meanwhile the guy that finishes second goes home pissed off and angry for being beat.

No matter what you think, it IS an individual sport. Others can motivate you, or inspire you, but they won't directly make you better like other team sports. A great running back is nothing without blockers. In powerlifting it's just you the bar and the judges. To train at home would be to say that you have never entered a meet, and never will know what you could have lifted under meet rules and conditions.

Some people may measure success by whether they finish first, second or third. But is this as relevant as what your total is versus last time? You could finish 1st one meet, and then come to the next meet and increase your total by 50lbs and come in 3rd? Which is preferable? Winning the comp? Or knowing you made such significant progress in your lifts? One way of thinking, is dependent on the performance of others in relation to yourself, the other way, is measuring your own performance, in relation to previous performances.

And no, training at home is not the same thing. No matter how long you've been training, you won't know what your form was like on max lift attempts. If you see guys that have been competing all their life get red lighted at a meet, then why would it be any different at home. And also, simply by attending and competing, many of these guys simply enter to help further the sport. Powerlifting from my limited experience with it, is a very thankless sport, run by some very positive people, that are trying to get things rolling, and spend an exhorbitant amount of time and money promoting the sport. They love it, and will do whatever they can to encourage others to take it up. Not many sports have the same positive attitude from everyone towards one another. They may be competing, but 9 times out of 10, if you are in first, and a guy is trying to outlift your max total, you are the guy cheering the loudest for him.

Maki Riddington
07-21-2003, 08:27 AM
Powerlifters have to be the nicest bunch of athletes out there imo.
To compete on stage with fellow lifters is a great experience. I'm sure at some point I'll want to go in there to win, but for the time being any comp I may enter will be to lift along side my iron brothers, not against them.

chris mason
07-21-2003, 11:20 AM
Originally posted by ElPietro
Well, my opinion is that there are many different forms of competition. Chris, it's kinda arrogant to tell others WHY they are entering meets. There can be more than one answer. You most certainly compete against yourself and enjoy it. Many enter the meets and have absolutely no chance of winning, unless every other lifter in their class blows a hammy or something. They come in last every time, but maybe get whites on their three lifts, and are 20lbs stronger than last event. These guys come in last, and go home smiling and perfectly happy. Meanwhile the guy that finishes second goes home pissed off and angry for being beat.

No matter what you think, it IS an individual sport. Others can motivate you, or inspire you, but they won't directly make you better like other team sports. A great running back is nothing without blockers. In powerlifting it's just you the bar and the judges. To train at home would be to say that you have never entered a meet, and never will know what you could have lifted under meet rules and conditions.

Some people may measure success by whether they finish first, second or third. But is this as relevant as what your total is versus last time? You could finish 1st one meet, and then come to the next meet and increase your total by 50lbs and come in 3rd? Which is preferable? Winning the comp? Or knowing you made such significant progress in your lifts? One way of thinking, is dependent on the performance of others in relation to yourself, the other way, is measuring your own performance, in relation to previous performances.

And no, training at home is not the same thing. No matter how long you've been training, you won't know what your form was like on max lift attempts. If you see guys that have been competing all their life get red lighted at a meet, then why would it be any different at home. And also, simply by attending and competing, many of these guys simply enter to help further the sport. Powerlifting from my limited experience with it, is a very thankless sport, run by some very positive people, that are trying to get things rolling, and spend an exhorbitant amount of time and money promoting the sport. They love it, and will do whatever they can to encourage others to take it up. Not many sports have the same positive attitude from everyone towards one another. They may be competing, but 9 times out of 10, if you are in first, and a guy is trying to outlift your max total, you are the guy cheering the loudest for him.



Great points, but they have nothing to do with what I was talking about.

Saturday Fever
07-21-2003, 11:27 AM
This thread is stupid now. I know myself, I know why I compete. For us to honestly sit here and debate who knows what who is thinking, or why who competes for what resons is just juvenile. Next we'll be debating who really likes the color red.

Maki Riddington
07-21-2003, 11:34 AM
I don't undertsand these, "this is dumb" kind of posts. If it's stupid then don't post.

Saturday Fever
07-21-2003, 01:20 PM
Yeah, I don't understand replying to those types of posts either. :scratch:

DK
07-21-2003, 01:40 PM
:withstupi