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View Full Version : Ketogenic diets = maintain muscle why? and how much?



Fenbay
07-16-2003, 07:13 AM
I've heard people say that a ketogenic diet naturally preserves more lean body mass than just an iso caloric diet with normal macro break down.

Couple questions: why does it affect lean body tissue better?

How much does it help? IE: on my keto diet can I cut my calorie deficit even deeper because of the natural tendency for keto diets to maintain muscle mass?

technogeeky
07-16-2003, 08:06 AM
I'm still interested in a CKD diet...

I just don't know how many carbs I could take in at that low body weight.

Plus, how do you eat protien shakes after working out.. if you can't take any carbs, that would suck!

Relentless
07-16-2003, 08:14 AM
I think the point is that you don't NEED to take a huge caloric deficit to progress in fatloss on keto.

I cut from 235->195 in ~3 months on keto, on about 2400 cals a day.

For specific details on the physiology of why keto works, one of the best investments you can make is in Lyle MacDonald's ebook. Worth every penny.

The oversimplified answer is that basically, keto mimics certain aspects of starvation. Your body stores fat against the day when you will be starving. It's adaptive, really. When you are starving, your body actually goes into keto. ;) It's just not as healthy a form of keto.

From Lyle's book (p.11)
"Under ‘normal’ dietary conditions, the body runs on a mix of carbohydrates, protein and fat. When carbohydrates are removed from the diet, the body’s small stores are quickly depleted. Consequently, the body is forced to find an alternative fuel to provide energy. One of these fuels is free fatty acids (FFA), which can be used by most tissues in the body. However, not all organs can use FFA. For example, the brain and nervous system are unable to use FFA for fuel ; however, they can use ketone bodies.

Ketone bodies are a by-product of the incomplete breakdown of FFA in the liver. They serve as a non-carbohydrate, fat-derived fuel for tissues such as the brain. When ketone bodies are produced at accelerated rates, they accumulate in the bloodstream, causing a metabolic state called ketosis to develop. Simultaneously, there is a decrease in glucose utilization and production. Along with this, there is a decrease in the breakdown of protein to be used for energy, referred to as ‘protein sparing’. Many individuals are drawn to ketogenic diets in an attempt to lose bodyfat while sparing the loss of lean body mass."

technogeeky
07-16-2003, 08:20 AM
Still, though. I don't know if a keto diet or my diet would be easier. I don't even know if I'm losing weight reguarly, yet. Damn this taking so long :)

Relentless
07-16-2003, 08:24 AM
the trick is not expecting it to be easy.
expect it to be hard. Expect it to be painful. Expect to feel pain and privation.
then resolve to do it anyway. ;)



It does get easier... but results take time. Months of time. Most of us spend years ****ing up our bodies. From that perspective, even achieving progress in 6 months to a year is AMAZING.

Fenbay
07-16-2003, 08:31 AM
My new work-out partner had an awesome quote last night. We were talking about describing why we do it to our wives/girlfriends who seem to think making our bodies look good is only to attract the opposite sex, which of course is not most of our PRIMARY motivations. Anyways he said

"It's about making my body into my slave"

Thought that was a great quote. After all, between the diets, supplements, workouts, timing of training, sleep cycles etc etc etc etc that's exactly what were trying to do. Make our bodies the body of our mind's eye.

Calla is right, I'm going on over a year of serious training and I'm just now to the mental point where I KNOW this keto diet will succeed, simply because failure is not an option. I've invested too much at this point to let it go. It will be hard. Will it be worth it? I'll let you know when I get there.

AJ_11
07-16-2003, 10:29 AM
There are tonnes of sites that are dedicated for Keto Diets. They are there to help you out. Check out this forum, it has alot of info on CKD and everybody there is in the same shoes.

www.c-k-d.com

bradley
07-16-2003, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by Fenbay
I've heard people say that a ketogenic diet naturally preserves more lean body mass than just an iso caloric diet with normal macro break down.

Couple questions: why does it affect lean body tissue better?


Well the keto diets may be protein sparing in a couple of ways. The first of which Callahan already pointed out is that the bodies glucose requirements are decreased so therefore less protein will be converted to glucose.

The kidneys can also help in preventing nitrogen losses due to the adaptations that are seen during ketosis. Since ketones are acidic the kidneys must increase the amount of ammonia, which will be used as a base to make sure that the urine does not become to acidic. The increase in ammonia production will cause more nitrogen to be used, because nitrogen is needed to make the ammonia.

After a while the kidneys will adapt so as to not have to make the extra ammonia, and this is accomplished by increased absortption of ketones in the kidneys.

A ketogenic diet will also cause a drop in T3 levels which will affect protein synthesis.

Fenbay
07-16-2003, 11:43 AM
Well, now I know why the urine smells like amonia!

aka23
07-16-2003, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by Fenbay
I've heard people say that a ketogenic diet naturally preserves more lean body mass than just an iso caloric diet with normal macro break down.

Studies suggest that when there is adaquate protein, muscle loss is roughly the same between high and low carb diets, so long as calories are kept constant.

Lyle Mcdonald wrote,
"Ketosis isn't required for losing fat, and doesn't spare muscle in lean individuals anyhow.... I'd say below 15% there's no protein sparing advantage to the ketogenic part of the CKD."

"When I wrote the book, I still had the false hope that ketogenic diets offered protein sparing effects to lean individuals. It's been since then (the book is 3 years old and already obsolete) that I realized that they offer no real advantage in *that* aspect."

Regardless of whether ketosis is a less catabolic environment, it certainly is not anabolic, and may result in lost potential muscle by interfering with workouts and recovery. In addition protein usage for energy increases dramatically during high intensity exercise (like weightlifting or HIIT) under conditions of glycogen depletion or ketosis.

AJ_11
07-16-2003, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by aka23


Studies suggest that when there is adaquate protein, muscle loss is roughly the same between high and low carb diets, so long as calories are kept constant.

Lyle Mcdonald wrote,
"Ketosis isn't required for losing fat, and doesn't spare muscle in lean individuals anyhow.... I'd say below 15% there's no protein sparing advantage to the ketogenic part of the CKD."

"When I wrote the book, I still had the false hope that ketogenic diets offered protein sparing effects to lean individuals. It's been since then (the book is 3 years old and already obsolete) that I realized that they offer no real advantage in *that* aspect."

Regardless of whether ketosis is a less catabolic environment, it certainly is not anabolic, and may result in lost potential muscle by interfering with workouts and recovery. In addition protein usage for energy increases dramatically during high intensity exercise (like weightlifting or HIIT) under conditions of glycogen depletion or ketosis.

I have to disagree, if done properly. The weekend Carb ups are done to restore glycogen levels in the muscles as well there is a post work out shake that includes dextrose to prevent catabolisim. You still benefit from both worlds, without constantley spiking ones insulin.

For me I have seen my libido rise drasticially and testosterone levels increase from what I can tell. Also it allows a person to eat more sensible. I eat alot more veggies, and portions are now smaller. Strength is actually increasing, and actaully seeing muscle definitions. It is definetley something that I am glad I did and for me in is not just a diet, it is a way of life.

I beleive that you will lose some muscle with any type of Diet. As long as you don't do something drastic for a long period of time I think it may go unnoticed by the individual.

The best way of dieting is not to diet at all. Maintain maintence cals and eat properly all the time. You will get there but it just takes time.

When I get to my desired goal I plan to try to bulk using this diet.

aka23
07-16-2003, 02:31 PM
The original question did not specify the type of ketogenic diet. I agree that a carb-up is protein sparing and anabolic. However, I do not feel that a ketogenic diet + carb-ups will be more protein sparing than a regular iso-caloric diet + carb-ups/refeeds, except perhaps for overweight/obese persons. Frankly I see little benefit to the ketogenic state. It does not seem to aid fat loss or spare muscle for leaner persons. It may result in a number of negative leptin, health, workout, and hormonal issues; many of which can be negated with frequent carb-ups/refeeds.

AJ_11
07-16-2003, 06:14 PM
Originally posted by aka23
I do not feel that a ketogenic diet + carb-ups will be more protein sparing than a regular iso-caloric diet + carb-ups/refeeds, except perhaps for overweight/obese persons.

I Agree. The good point about this diet though is mainly the fact that it is easier to stick to it. Knowing that a carb up is on the way, it is easier for one not to cheat.

Remember that each individual is different and different types of food work better for some and not other.

When I first started working out I lost alot weight about 3 yrs ago. Over 100llbs and it was more of a balanced diet. At the same time I had lost alot of muscle becasue I never kept track of anything and overtrained. This time around I seem to be "gaining" LBM while on this diet due to me eating EFA and healthy fats, alot of veggies and my workouts have gotten shorter. A person should follow a diet that they are able to stick to and really that is the bottom line. Whether it high carb/low fat, high fat/ low carb or Iso Caloric. The key is sticking to it.

Also I tend to overdo it on carbs when I eat them and that it why I feel that I had some success with this one. I am allowed to eat all the carbs I want on refeeds enough to make me not wantto touch another bowl of oats for at least another week.

But yes you are correct, it is not more muscle sparring than any other diet in lean individuals, but if it work for you than all the best.