PDA

View Full Version : ratio of protein/carbs/fat when bulking and cutting?



intensity
07-19-2003, 07:13 PM
Since I have been lifting, I never paid much, if any, attention to ratios or even to how many calories I eat a day. When I first started I knew I needed to bulk, so I just came up with a diet, watched and saw if I gained or not, and if I didn't, I just added more food. With the exception of making sure I eat 1-1.5 grams of protein per pound a day, I never paid any attention to calories or ratios or how many carbs or anything like that. It was always, "ok, I'm not gaining, I'll add a second can of tuna or 2 potatoes or a cup of milk or more nuts" etc. and that was how I did it. When I cut I just took out a food similar to how I added it when I bulked. I again never looked at calories or ratios. I just knew that if I wasn't gaining weight I needed more, and if I wasn't losing, I needed less. I just never paid attention to what the 'more' or 'less' was. Hopefully that made sense, lol.

Now I'm thinking I shouldn't be doing it like this, and that watching the ratios will be a smart move. So, I will. I just wanted to know what the normal ratios are of protein, carbs and fat when cutting and when bulking. When I say normal, I mean gaining the least amount of fat and most amount of muscle when you bulk, and losing the least amount of muscle and the most amount of fat when you cut.

Thanks in advance.

SoulOfKoRea
07-19-2003, 07:57 PM
there are no set ratios, experiment!

intensity
07-19-2003, 08:20 PM
This I know.

I just need an idea. Like right now my diet seems to be about 38/34/28 (carbs/protein/fat).

Is this like even close to anything kinda normal? Like I said, I never paid ANY attention to this stuff, so I am kinda clueless here.

JuniorMint6669
07-19-2003, 09:39 PM
That looks perfectly fine to me. From what I hear, as long as you are getting 1g protein per pound, and enough EFA's, the rest hardly matters. My macros have been about 50/30/20 carb/pro/fat, not neccessarily by design, its just thats how its easiest for me to get my calories in.

SoulOfKoRea
07-20-2003, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by JuniorMint6669
That looks perfectly fine to me. From what I hear, as long as you are getting 1g protein per pound, and enough EFA's, the rest hardly matters.

restless
07-20-2003, 01:22 PM
I stay pretty close to the 30P-30F-40C most of the time. It's not really that important as long as you do what JuniorMint6669
mentioned the rest is mostly a matter of calories.

Mic Soloist
07-21-2003, 12:27 AM
I try to get it at


30/40/30

or

30/45/25

But I often fail because I like to eat more carbs

I hardly never let my carbs get any higher than my protein though... unless I'm drinking that night:)



-peace-

robthoburn
07-22-2003, 07:13 PM
Originally posted by intensity
I just wanted to know what the normal ratios are of protein, carbs and fat when cutting and when bulking. When I say normal, I mean gaining the least amount of fat and most amount of muscle when you bulk, and losing the least amount of muscle and the most amount of fat when you cut.


Intensity: If you read the article on the link provided below, you'll find some really simple guidelines for an eating approach that will let you build muscle and lose fat at the same time.

http://www.1fast400.com/article.php?articleID=22&aCatID=

Hope this helps.

Rob

JustinASU
07-23-2003, 07:00 AM
That's an interesting link but can one really get enough EFAs with that? And a guy my size has to eat over 500 gr of carbs daily....on a diet! That seems a bit extreme to me.

aka23
07-23-2003, 09:08 AM
Originally posted by robthoburn
Intensity: If you read the article on the link provided below, you'll find some really simple guidelines for an eating approach that will let you build muscle and lose fat at the same time.

http://www.1fast400.com/article.php?articleID=22&aCatID=

Hope this helps.

Rob

That diet is somewhat similar to my own. I also eat a high carb/low fat diet with ~1.2g/lb protein. The only supplements I use are the same two you listed -- EFAs and an occasional multivitamin/mineral. The main differences are I eat more calories, a higher percent fat, and do a lot of high-intensity, carb-burning exercise.

Why do you feel that such a diet would "let you build muscle and lose fat at the same time?" Do you mean that it would be possible for some persons (untrained or overweight) to build muscle while losing fat, or that anyone could build muscle and lose fat with your diet?

As I wrote in another post:

You can find studies where subjects gained muscle and lost fat with strength training alone, strength training + cardio, or cardio alone (usually HIIT type). In such studies the subjects are almost always overweight or untrained, usually both.

http://www.exrx.net/FatLoss/DietExStudy.html
http://www.exrx.net/FatLoss/WTCalLBWStudy.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3337037&dopt=Abstract

As a person becomes more trained, it becomes more difficult to gain muscle, and gaining muscle usually requires a postive calorie balance. Similarly the body likes to maintain a certain body fat set point. As body fat decreases, it becomes increasingly difficult to continue to lose fat, and gaining muscle while losing fat becomes more difficult.

This body fat set point can be manipulated in several ways including improving training (weightlifting, doing cardio), dietary changes, and supplementation. Certain types of exercises have more effect than others. A trained/lean person may be able to gain muscle and lose fat by eating near maintenence calories and using such methods, but at some point they will also reach a plateau where further changes are not possible. For example, during my curent bulk I have gained about 15 lbs muscle while losing about 0.5lb fat. I started out both trained and lean. Most of my fat loss occured towards the start. After I reached a certain bf, fat loss slowed down to the point that it was insignificant.

Generally it is more efficient to focus on one activity or the other - gaining muscle or losing fat. You can minimize the amount of fat gained or muscle lost by eating near calorie maintenance (such that you gain/lose under 1lb per week), and by doing a combination of weightlifting and cardio.

robthoburn
07-23-2003, 10:53 AM
All of the points you made are great. In case you're interested, I've discussed the 'building muscle and losing fat simultaneously' issue on Avant Lab's forum (see link below). It became a bit of a 'Thoburn witch trial', but perhaps you'll find it useful.

http://forum.avantlabs.com/index.php?act=ST&f=12&t=4757


I agree that with time and training experience, the rate of muscle growth tends to decline remarkably (and frustratingly).

That being said, most people (including many bodybuilders) eat too much and have a good margin of body fat to lose. For these persons, losing fat and building muscle simultaneously may be more likely.

I've been training since the summer of 1986. I was 16 and weighed about 148 pounds at near the height I am now (6'1"). I'm now about 215 pounds with about 7.5-8% body fat.

Myself, I feel like I've pretty much 'capped out' as far as muscle gains go. That is, I've put on about as much muscle as I likely ever will. So for me, the building muscle/losing fat simultaneously thing doesn't really apply. I never go off my diet or stop working out, so a 'before/after' opportunity isn't a possibility. This is another scenario where losing fat and building muscle simultaneously is feasible.

As far as essential fatty acids (EFAs) go, it's probably not a bad idea to add some cold-water fish oils in order to get eicosapentanoic acid (EPA) and docosahexanoic acid (DHA). The eating approach I outline is noticeably absent in these important n-3 (omega-3) fatty acids.

Thanks for your interest,
Rob