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intensity
07-20-2003, 10:37 AM
Is something like Tropicana fruit punch good after a workout? I mix my protein powder with it, and I always figured after a workout you need carbs and protein, so this would be ok. But now I am thinking that fruit punch isn't the right type of carb I need at this time. Would I be better off mixing the protein powder with water, and then having something like a potato with this meal as the carb, or is the protein power in the fruit punch fine?

Just checked, and the amount of fruit punch I drink is basically pretty equal in calories and carbs to the amount of potato I would eat. So it basically comes down to which type of carb is better, since everything else is pretty much equal.

Holto
07-20-2003, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by intensity
Is something like Tropicana fruit punch good after a workout?

*** if it's predominantly fructose then no, it would be a bad choice

Would I be better off mixing the protein powder with water, and then having something like a potato ?

*** I assume you don't do pre or during workout nutrition, in which case the potato will take too long

intensity
07-20-2003, 11:32 AM
I assume you don't do pre or during workout nutrition, in which case the potato will take too long

I'm not sure what you mean by this. If the potato and the fruit punch are both not good after a workout, what should I have? During my workout I don't have anything but water. Pre workout (which is also my Meal 1) I have about 35 grams of protein from a scoop of whey and egg whites, 2 pieces of whole wheat bread and 2 red potatoes and a cup of 2% milk. Is this also not so good?

I always assumed my pre and post workout meals were ok, maybe they aren't. I am very willing to learn.

bradley
07-20-2003, 11:49 AM
Originally posted by intensity


I'm not sure what you mean by this. If the potato and the fruit punch are both not good after a workout, what should I have? During my workout I don't have anything but water. Pre workout (which is also my Meal 1) I have about 35 grams of protein from a scoop of whey and egg whites, 2 pieces of whole wheat bread and 2 red potatoes and a cup of 2% milk. Is this also not so good?

I always assumed my pre and post workout meals were ok, maybe they aren't. I am very willing to learn.

What he is saying is that the potato would take a while to be digested/absorbed by the body, which would not be ideal post workout.

As far as the fruit punch goes it more than likely contains high amounts of fructose which is not really an ideal carb source. You would have to check the ingredients to be sure.

If you are supplying your body with carbs and protein pre-workout then post workout becomes less of a concern because you have already begun supplying your body with nutrients before the workout began. How much time is there between your first meal and your workout?

IMO your pre-workout meal should consist of a small amount of carbs and protein ~30 minutes before training. If you are going to use whole food it would probably be more like an hour to give the food a chance to digest. You could use something like white bread, white rice, bagels, potato, etc. along with a small amount of whey (~25-35g of carbs and ~10-15g of protein).

intensity
07-20-2003, 12:27 PM
Thanks for the replies, by the way.


As far as the fruit punch goes it more than likely contains high amounts of fructose which is not really an ideal carb source. You would have to check the ingredients to be sure.

I checked, fructose it is.


What he is saying is that the potato would take a while to be digested/absorbed by the body, which would not be ideal post workout.

So then what food can I eat post workout, along with my protein shake (which I guess I will now start mixing in water instead of fruit punch) that will be ideal?


How much time is there between your first meal and your workout?

I eat the pre-workout meal at around 7:00am-7:30am.
I'm in the gym from around 8:30am-9:45am.
I eat the post workout meal as soon as I get home, which is about 10:00am.


I think my whole diet needs a good looking over. Sometime today I'm going to type it all up and get all calories/carbs/protein/fat numbers and then post it along with my weight and goals, etc. Hopefully you guys can get a chance to check it out and give me some feedback on it.

SoulOfKoRea
07-20-2003, 12:40 PM
^^ mix your shake in water, with maltodextrin or dextrose or both

bradley
07-20-2003, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by intensity
[B]So then what food can I eat post workout, along with my protein shake (which I guess I will now start mixing in water instead of fruit punch) that will be ideal?

Something along the lines of white rice, white bread, bagels, oats, baking potato, etc. If you are taking in some carbs and protein pre-workout the post workout shake is not as important.



I eat the pre-workout meal at around 7:00am-7:30am.
I'm in the gym from around 8:30am-9:45am.
I eat the post workout meal as soon as I get home, which is about 10:00am.

For you pre-workout meal try and keep fat to a minimum, and take in some carbs and protein. I would recommend eating your pre-workout meal ~60 minutes before training so as to give it time to digest. You could eat some of the same carb choices that I mentioned above along with some egg whites or maybe a whey shake (~25-35g of carbs and 10-15g of protein).

intensity
07-20-2003, 05:04 PM
Something along the lines of white rice, white bread, bagels, oats, baking potato, etc.

I thought a potato wasn't good post workout? Unless it was a typo?

noraa
07-20-2003, 06:10 PM
What he is saying is that the potato would take a while to be digested/absorbed by the body, which would not be ideal post workout.
confusin people Bradley :D
a hot baked potato is high gi

a cold baked potato is lower gi (resistant starch)

bradley
07-21-2003, 02:27 AM
Originally posted by intensity


I thought a potato wasn't good post workout? Unless it was a typo?

What I was trying to say is that as long as you are taking in pre-workout carbs a potato would be fine post workout. Since you are taking in pre-workout carbs and protein you are ensuring that you will have nutrients available during and immediately after training.

If you were not taking in carbs pre-workout then the potato would not be ideal because it would take too long too digest. Just because you are eating something does not mean the nutrients are immediately available for the body to use. I am not trying to give you conflicting advice and I hope that helps clear things up:)

intensity
07-21-2003, 08:49 AM
I am not trying to give you conflicting advice and I hope that helps clear things up

I see, I got ya now... :D

Just 2 more questions on this subject. Lets pretend that pre workout I didn't eat enough carbs, what THEN would be the ideal type of food to have with my protein shake post workout?

Do I have this all right now:
Mixing my post workout shake with fruit punch = bad idea
Mixing it with water = good idea
Having something like fruit punch at any time of the day, cutting or bulking, since it is mainly fructose = bad idea
Along with this protein powder/water shake, I should still have some type of carb post workout, such as a potato (as long as I ate correctly pre workout) = good idea
These pre-workout/post-workout questions get asked wayyyy too much so I should shut up already = good idea ;)

bradley
07-21-2003, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by intensity
Lets pretend that pre workout I didn't eat enough carbs, what THEN would be the ideal type of food to have with my protein shake post workout?

The first thing that comes to mind would be some type of candy that contains dextrose, such as smarties. Otherwise you would probably be better off using some of the same foods that I mentioned above (potatos, rice, bagels, white bread, etc.) You could use something like grape juice which is ~50/50 glucose and fructose, but I would be careful about taking in too much fructose.

You could just sip on a Gatorade or something similar during you workout and then follow up your workout with your post workout meal.




Do I have this all right now:
Mixing my post workout shake with fruit punch = bad idea
Mixing it with water = good idea
Having something like fruit punch at any time of the day, cutting or bulking, since it is mainly fructose = bad idea

Looks right to me:)



Along with this protein powder/water shake, I should still have some type of carb post workout, such as a potato (as long as I ate correctly pre workout) = good idea

:nod:



These pre-workout/post-workout questions get asked wayyyy too much so I should shut up already = good idea ;)

Repetition is the mother of learning:D

intensity
07-21-2003, 12:50 PM
The first thing that comes to mind would be some type of candy that contains dextrose, such as smarties.

Smarties? lol.. here is something I didn't think I'd ever say in my life: How many smarties will be ideal for my post workout meal? lol... Like a pack? Is some form of dextrose at this time really THAT needed that people are really sitting there eating smarties?

So right now my new post workout meal is going to be the protein powder mixed in water, potato, and maybe some smarties. Sounds good to me.

Thanks a lot for help by the way, it is very much appreciated.

bradley
07-21-2003, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by intensity
How many smarties will be ideal for my post workout meal? lol... Like a pack?

There are different sized rolls that smarties come in so it would depend on the size of the roll. Just check the nutrition label and go from there.


Is some form of dextrose at this time really THAT needed that people are really sitting there eating smarties?

Well not really, although it could make a small difference. Will this make or break your training, no.

IMO consuming enough protein and carbs for pre/post workout nutrition is the main thing, and then fast/slow proteins, type of carbs, etc. would be a secondary concern.

furious
07-24-2003, 10:32 AM
So where would you people stand on mixing a post workout shake with wter and a fruit itself for the sugar, such as a banana?

Tru
07-24-2003, 10:40 AM
Don't have fruit postworkout. I really think the whole sugar postworkout is bull****. The scale might go up but most of the people I see that do this continue to look like ****. I guess try it and see if it works for you. Maybe I'm missing out on better gains, but I doubt it.

I would just make sure to get 40-60g whey protein pre and postworkout, complex carb like oatmeal an hour before the workout and then some veggies postworkout.

Holto
07-24-2003, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by Tru
I really think the whole sugar postworkout is bull****.

*** Why do you think that ?
*** ( insulin is 3x more anabolic than test)

The scale might go up but most of the people I see that do this continue to look like ****.

*** if the cals (from sugar) are counted toward your daily total they are no more likely to contribute to fat gain

I would just make sure to get 40-60g whey protein pre and postworkout, complex carb like oatmeal an hour before the workout and then some veggies postworkout.

Tru:

your body is converting a great deal of that whey to glucose you may as well just take something that becomes/is glucose with less load on your liver etc...

bradley
07-24-2003, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by Tru
Don't have fruit postworkout. I really think the whole sugar postworkout is bull****. The scale might go up but most of the people I see that do this continue to look like ****. I guess try it and see if it works for you. Maybe I'm missing out on better gains, but I doubt it.

It has been well established that taking in adequate amounts of carbs pre/post workout will help refill muscle glycogen and promote an overall anabolic effect in the body.

Taking in high GI carbs such as dextrose and maltodextrin will accomplish this the fastest, but that is not to say that whole food carbs sources would not work.


[b]
I would just make sure to get 40-60g whey protein pre and postworkout, complex carb like oatmeal an hour before the workout and then some veggies postworkout.

While I agree that protein and carbs preworkout is a good idea, I disagree with the protein and veggies post workout. You would have to eat a large amount of vegetables to get enough carbs to replinish muscle glycogen, and not to mention the fiber would slow the digestion of the whey which would not be ideal post workout.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1601794&dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12235033&dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8226443&dopt=Abstract

bradley
07-24-2003, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by furious
So where would you people stand on mixing a post workout shake with wter and a fruit itself for the sugar, such as a banana?

Well a banana would be a good choice if you were intent on consuming fruit postworkout. It contains a lower amount of fructose than some other fruits, and is also high on the GI (ripe banana).

http://www.geocities.com/perfectapple/sugar_carbohydrates_acid.html

If you do go with a banana post workout then I would recommend choosing a ripe banana due to the more available sugars that it will contain.

Although I would imagine that you might need more carbs than one banana post workout, but this would depend on other factors such as pre-workout nutrition, size of the banana, etc.

Tru
07-24-2003, 05:27 PM
But if you spike your insulin, you lose the fat burning effect of exercise also.

If insulin is really 3x more anaolbic than test and spiking it via simple carbs really works then how come people who do this don't see incredible gains?

Do you know of any articles, besides t-mag bull****, describing WHY simple carbs postworkout works?
I might give it a try, but most the people I see who do this are skinny fats but then again it might just be their training.

bradley
07-25-2003, 03:02 AM
Originally posted by Tru
But if you spike your insulin, you lose the fat burning effect of exercise also.

While you are correct in your statement above you also have to keep in mind that you are remaining in a catabolic state and promoting an insulin repsonse post workout will blunt the effects of cortisol post workout.

http://www.poweringmuscles.com/musclerecovery.asp?article_number=6

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8175597&dopt=Abstract



If insulin is really 3x more anaolbic than test and spiking it via simple carbs really works then how come people who do this don't see incredible gains?

IMO insulin is more of an anti-catabolic hormone than an anabolic hormone.



Do you know of any articles, besides t-mag bull****, describing WHY simple carbs postworkout works?

The one article I posted above might be of interest and I have already posted abstracts that also back up my point.



I might give it a try, but most the people I see who do this are skinny fats but then again it might just be their training.

The statement above is really not relevant to the discussion at hand. Without knowing what the rest of these people's diet and training looks like how can you assume that their post workout shake is to blame?

It is more important to take in adequate amounts of carbs pre/post workout than the type of carbohydrate (high or low GI). High GI index carbs will be digested/absorbed the fastest which will refill muscle glycogen faster than low GI carbs post workout, but if you are consuming pre-workout carbs then high GI post workout would be less of an issue.

Tru
07-25-2003, 10:34 AM
So do you think simple carbs postworkout would be beneficial even on a cut?

Holto
07-25-2003, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by Tru
If insulin is really 3x more anaolbic than test and spiking it via simple carbs really works then how come people who do this don't see incredible gains?

I do :D

post w/o spikes only last so long

if you could significantly eleveate them all day it would be like doing an AS cycle or better

I know 2 firefighters that did an insulin only cycle and put on serious muscle about 20lbs each and they were fairly big lads to begin with

this is also why pro's take so much inulin

they wouldn't risk death if it wasn't going to make a pretty big difference

a few bb's die every year from injecting too much

Tru
07-25-2003, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by Holto


I do :D

post w/o spikes only last so long

if you could significantly eleveate them all day it would be like doing an AS cycle or better

I know 2 firefighters that did an insulin only cycle and put on serious muscle about 20lbs each and they were fairly big lads to begin with

this is also why pro's take so much inulin

they wouldn't risk death if it wasn't going to make a pretty big difference

a few bb's die every year from injecting too much

Couldn't you "spike" them just like you do postworkout all throughout the day with simple carbs?

When did you start using simple carbs postworkout? You still stay lean--you do it on a cut?

I know pro's take insulin, I just think this spiking with simple sugars is really hyped to be more than it really is...I could be wrong. How did you decide to start doing this? I know there are a lot of articles on it on sites like T-mag (basically all worthless imo, besides a few of their Charles Poliquin ripoff articles)...Any legit sources though?

bradley
07-25-2003, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by Tru
So do you think simple carbs postworkout would be beneficial even on a cut?

IMO the anabolic/anti-catabolic effects of a pre/post workout shake outweigh the decrease in fat burning that will occur due to the increase in insulin levels.

The main determining factor as far as weight loss is concerned is overall calorie balance at the end of the day.

bradley
07-25-2003, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by Holto
*** ( insulin is 3x more anabolic than test)

Insulin itself would be more anti-catabolic than anabolic, due to it's effects on glucagon, cortisol, etc.

It could be termed anabolic since it shuttles nutrients into the muscles which would be considered anabolic.

bradley
07-25-2003, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by Tru


Couldn't you "spike" them just like you do postworkout all throughout the day with simple carbs?

You could but why would you want to? Creating an insulin spike post workout is a fast way to get nutrients into the muscle cells post workout and bring the body into a more anabolic state. There would really be no need to spike insulin levels all throughout the day.:)




I know pro's take insulin, I just think this spiking with simple sugars is really hyped to be more than it really is...I could be wrong. How did you decide to start doing this? I know there are a lot of articles on it on sites like T-mag (basically all worthless imo, besides a few of their Charles Poliquin ripoff articles)...Any legit sources though?

Did you read the abstracts and article that I posted earlier in the thread?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8226443&dopt=Abstract

There are many more on the topic and I would be happy to find some more.:)

Also if you are taking in a pre-workout shake the need for simple sugars would not be as great post workout, since the pre-workout carbs would be available to the body immediately post workout. If you feel uncomfortable loading up on simple carbs post workout the addition of a pre-workout shake would be a good option IMO.

Tru
07-25-2003, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by bradley


You could but why would you want to? Creating an insulin spike post workout is a fast way to get nutrients into the muscle cells post workout and bring the body into a more anabolic state. There would really be no need to spike insulin levels all throughout the day.:)




Did you read the abstracts and article that I posted earlier in the thread?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8226443&dopt=Abstract

There are many more on the topic and I would be happy to find some more.:)

Also if you are taking in a pre-workout shake the need for simple sugars would not be as great post workout, since the pre-workout carbs would be available to the body immediately post workout. If you feel uncomfortable loading up on simple carbs post workout the addition of a pre-workout shake would be a good option IMO.

Yea, I read that paragraph... GH levels higher with the protein + carb drink than others.


Why I said if this actually works to spike Insulin, insulin that is anabolic, then why not do it the whole day?
Your body isn't just recovering postworkout, it's recovering all throughout the next day, the next, etc.
I don't think it makes sense either, bradley... If it actually did create an anabolic environment for the body, then it would.

Sure, post some other studies, so far I don't see anything that makes simple carbs post workout undeniably great..

Holto
07-25-2003, 10:35 PM
Originally posted by Tru


Couldn't you "spike" them just like you do postworkout all throughout the day with simple carbs?

*** I really doubt it because I think at some point your body would regulate insulin release or production

*** either way the effect of elevated insulin levels all day would have a negative influence on insulin sensitivity which would reduce the anabolic effects of inslulin among other bad side effects

When did you start using simple carbs postworkout?

*** 2 years ago

You still stay lean

*** why wouldn't I, sugar dosen't automatically make you fat
there is no magical effect if total cals are in check

you do it on a cut?

*** I take even more when cutting
up to 150g's

How did you decide to start doing this?

*** after reading posts from a guy named LAM (here and other boards) and a pharmacist who works in the supp industry and was a pro bb


as Bradley has pointed out the greatest benefit is the anti-catabolic effects of insulin

post workout you are losing hard earned muscle

to gain tissue the key is to never lose any

you lose enough from training alone

without a decent insulin response you allow cortisol to break down muscle

a pre/during shake is also an excellent way to prevent this but these shakes involve copius amounts of sugar also

Holto
07-25-2003, 10:37 PM
tru:

just out of curiosity are you taking 60g's of protein before and after a workout

what exactly do you do?

pre & post

Tru
07-26-2003, 12:26 AM
pre: 40g whey (optimum, has glutamine too) + 30g carb (oatmeal)
post: 40g whey (w/ glut)

What is the reasoning behind taking in more sugar postworkout on a cut?

bradley
07-26-2003, 04:57 AM
Originally posted by Tru
Why I said if this actually works to spike Insulin, insulin that is anabolic, then why not do it the whole day?
Your body isn't just recovering postworkout, it's recovering all throughout the next day, the next, etc.

I agree that your body is recovering constantly, but your body is not in a catabolic state all day as it would be immediately following a hard workout. Consuming carbs pre/post workout will help bring the body back into an anabolic state, and this would be accomplished by refilling glycogen stores and the decrease in cortisol levels.

There would be no reason to spike insulin levels all day, but there is a reason post workout, as mentioned above.



I don't think it makes sense either, bradley... If it actually did create an anabolic environment for the body, then it would.


It does create an anabolic environment for the body.:)



Sure, post some other studies, so far I don't see anything that makes simple carbs post workout undeniably great..

Like I said in my previous posts you do not have to use sugars post workout. There are plenty of people that use low GI carbs pre/post workout, although IMO high GI carbs are better pre/post workout, due to the increased rate of digestion/absorption.

If you are consuming 40g of oats ~60 minutes before training then that would be fine, but you also need to take in carbs post workout as well. The type of carbohydrate is not as important as the amount of carbohydrate because your ultimate goal is glycogen replenishment. High GI carbs will accomplish this goal faster than that of low GI carbs such as oats, but how much of a difference will this make is the main question.

Although it seems that your biggest concern is fat gain from the high GI carbs, which should not really be a concern IMO.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12580650&dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9480948&dopt=Abstract

Holto
07-26-2003, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by Tru
pre: 40g whey (optimum, has glutamine too) + 30g carb (oatmeal)
post: 40g whey (w/ glut)


so in effect you ARE taking a fair bit of sugar because a great deal of that whey is being converted to glucose which could be leaving you SHORT of protein



What is the reasoning behind taking in more sugar postworkout on a cut?

I don't do refeed days when I cut so my glycogen gets low

post w/o my glycogen stores are really low so I try to fill them up totally post w/o

I started doing this after reading about a system called carb stacking where you take in the majority of carbs for the week post w/o

I train with weights 3x a week so I take advantage of the increased cellular sensitivity post w/o to refill glycogen as much as possible

I take 100g's after push or pull days and 125-150 on leg days

this way my diet is very consitant throughout the week

if I didn't do it I would tend to overeat after working out

to the point where I feel like I can't leave my house

after a 6:00 workout I was eating like 3-4 complete meals before I started doing the bigger shakes

Tru
07-26-2003, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by Holto


so in effect you ARE taking a fair bit of sugar because a great deal of that whey is being converted to glucose which could be leaving you SHORT of protein

***Why is it being converted to glucose? You think it's too much protein?

I don't do refeed days when I cut so my glycogen gets low

post w/o my glycogen stores are really low so I try to fill them up totally post w/o

I started doing this after reading about a system called carb stacking where you take in the majority of carbs for the week post w/o

***You don't take in carbs preworkout or at breakfast?

I train with weights 3x a week so I take advantage of the increased cellular sensitivity post w/o to refill glycogen as much as possible

***I train 6x a week so would extremely high amounts of simple sugars benefit on a cut?

I take 100g's after push or pull days and 125-150 on leg days

this way my diet is very consitant throughout the week

if I didn't do it I would tend to overeat after working out

to the point where I feel like I can't leave my house

after a 6:00 workout I was eating like 3-4 complete meals before I started doing the bigger shakes

I think I might give your simple carb system a try for a few weeks.

Holto
07-26-2003, 12:57 PM
when you take whey it must travel through the liver to make it into the circulation

if your muscles and liver are low on glycogen ie: post w/o
your body does not have the choice to use the whey to build muscle it must first meet it's energy needs

for this reason the majority of the whey you are taking post w/o is converted to sugar

this is a common problem with whey and it's why you should never take whey without fat or carbs as it will be used for energy

this will happen at any time of the day and even more so post w/o

I don't use the carb stacking method ( I eat a balanced diet all day)

I just mentioned that in answer to your question as to my rationale for using more sugar when cutting

if you are taking a post w/o shake with carbs 6x/wk I don't think you would need the extra carbs as much as I would training only 3x/wk

you would have a chance to top up your glycogen levels practically every day so I don't think they would get as low

Tru
07-26-2003, 05:49 PM
So if I try the simple sugar spike method, how many grams should I take postworkout?

Holto
07-26-2003, 06:00 PM
try 75 with what you're doing pre w/o

dirty-c
07-28-2003, 10:31 AM
If I understand you correctly Holto, you do the carb stacking method on workout days only, and then eat a balanced diet on your off days? How many carbs will you eat for the rest of the day on your workout days (other than the post w/o ones)?

Holto
07-28-2003, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by Holto
I don't use the carb stacking method ( I eat a balanced diet all day)

I DO NOT use the carb stacking method EVER

it was simply something I read which made me realize my body is capable of absorbing a great deal of carbs into gylcogen post w/o

if you wan't to try a diet where you are depriving yourself of carbs for a long time try a CKD, or TKD

Stephen Riddington
07-29-2003, 10:10 PM
I just mix creatine and dextrose with Minute Maid Cranberry juice since there's a Safeway in the same building as my gym.