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Berserker
07-20-2003, 07:46 PM
Lately I have been working out before bed. I just don'thave the time or really the motivation until about 9:00 pm and I go to bed abut 10:15-10:30. My wos have be short. Mainly a big lift, squat, bench and DL. Maybe another smaller exercise. Around 30 mins.

What should I be doing for pwo nutriention. I've been mainly having some whey and a little bit of juice, and thats it. But now I am thinking maybe I should have some whey and maybe cottage cheese. Which is better whey absorbing right away then nothing to morning or slowing the aborbsation but not getting a large protein intake right after wo?

Anhy suggestions?

unshift
07-20-2003, 09:28 PM
cottage cheese and whey sounds good to me, although i don't know if the cottage cheese will slow the absorption of the whey. either way i don't think it really matters, just make sure you're getting enough throughout the day

bradley
07-21-2003, 03:19 AM
Originally posted by Berserker
Lately I have been working out before bed. I just don'thave the time or really the motivation until about 9:00 pm and I go to bed abut 10:15-10:30. My wos have be short. Mainly a big lift, squat, bench and DL. Maybe another smaller exercise. Around 30 mins.

What should I be doing for pwo nutriention. I've been mainly having some whey and a little bit of juice, and thats it. But now I am thinking maybe I should have some whey and maybe cottage cheese. Which is better whey absorbing right away then nothing to morning or slowing the aborbsation but not getting a large protein intake right after wo?

Any suggestions?

I would take in a small amount of carbs and protein pre-workout then have a whole food meal after training or a shake that contains a slow digesting protein. IMO having a slow digesting protein would be better than just whey post workout due to the overnight fast, especially if you are taking in some protein and carbs pre-workout.

Just make sure that you are taking in an adequate amount of carbs and protein between your pre/post workout meals.

bradley
07-21-2003, 03:32 AM
Originally posted by unshift
cottage cheese and whey sounds good to me, although i don't know if the cottage cheese will slow the absorption of the whey.

The casien in the cottage cheese would slow the absorptoin of the whey:)

Frankster
07-21-2003, 07:07 AM
Originally posted by bradley


The casien in the cottage cheese would slow the absorptoin of the whey:)

I thought the protein in cottage cheese was whey protein? Does it contain both? So I guess cottage cheese is a good choice before going to bed huh.

bradley
07-21-2003, 10:55 AM
Originally posted by Frankster


I thought the protein in cottage cheese was whey protein? Does it contain both? So I guess cottage cheese is a good choice before going to bed huh.

Cottage cheese is primarily casein because the whey is seperated during the cheese making process. :)

http://www.milkingredients.ca/dcp/article_e.asp?catid=145&page=1010

Frankster
07-21-2003, 01:05 PM
ahhh.. cool, thanks :)

Berserker
07-21-2003, 03:58 PM
I am pretty much on the idea eat good before wo. Especially carbs. I am still not conveinced that it doesn't matter taking carbs before bed. Also there short wos so I haven't been burning alot gylcogen(sp).
In all reality it probably doesn't matter. As long as I am getting protein after and enough during the day.
Just curious what people think. Probably gonna have whey whey and something else.

aka23
07-21-2003, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by Berserker
I am pretty much on the idea eat good before wo. Especially carbs. I am still not conveinced that it doesn't matter taking carbs before bed. Also there short wos so I haven't been burning alot gylcogen(sp).

If I understand the theory correctly, the idea is that if you eat carbs at night, they will get converted to fat. Glyogen stores will spillover because glycogen is not being burned while sleeping.

This is not accuracte for many reasons. The body does not convert significant amounts of carbs to fat, excluding certain unusual situations (very low fat diet, very high fructose/sucrose consumption, medical conditions, ...). The study at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8675642&dopt=Abstract found that when subjects ate a diet with a 50% caloric surplus of carbohydrates, less than 5g of fat per day was created via DNL (converting carbs or protein to fat).

The body burns a mixture of fat and carbs (glycogen/glucose) all day and while resting. During low intensity activities, fat is usually the primary fuel source. As intensity increases, more glucose/glycogen is used. Instead of converting carbs to fat, the body likes to save energy and change its fuel mix to burn more carbs (glucose/glycogen) and less fat. In this way caloric balance over a long period becomes a much more important factor in fat balance than fat/carb ratios or times foods are eaten.

One of the times when it is most important to eat carbs is after a workout. The carbs help restore glycogen levels and promote an anabolic response. Skipping carbs in your postworkout meal could easily interfere with your gains. In my opinion there is a significant benefit to eating carbs after your nighttime workout, and little risk of a significantly increased fat gain.

I also workout at night. I eat my highest % carb meal before I go to bed, and I often eat carb-based snacks in the middle of the night. I have had no problems maintaining a body fat under 5% while following this approach.

Berserker
07-21-2003, 06:33 PM
Thanks for the response. I'll probably add more carbs. I know tonight I will. I got a roast and yam in the oven.

EdgarMex
07-21-2003, 07:59 PM
I'm very interested in this. I workout at night too, usually start between 9:30 and 10:00 pm. The workout duration is around 1 hour. Usually I have a full last meal (beef or chicken, rice and maybe some veggies) around 8:00-8:30 and I have a shake (2 scoops of whey and 1 scoop of dextrose) right after my workout (10:30-11:00), then go to bed half-hour to one-hour after that. Is that good enough? Can it be improved?

Berserker
07-21-2003, 08:16 PM
Tonight I had a scoop of whey and water during my workout and a roast beef and yams after my wo.

bradley
07-22-2003, 02:38 AM
Originally posted by EdgarMex
I'm very interested in this. I workout at night too, usually start between 9:30 and 10:00 pm. The workout duration is around 1 hour. Usually I have a full last meal (beef or chicken, rice and maybe some veggies) around 8:00-8:30 and I have a shake (2 scoops of whey and 1 scoop of dextrose) right after my workout (10:30-11:00), then go to bed half-hour to one-hour after that. Is that good enough? Can it be improved?

Have you thought about eating you whole food meal ~2-2.5 hours before training and then having a small pre-workout shake immediately before training? Then after your workout take in some slow digesting protein and low GI carbs since you will be sleeping for ~8 hours or so. The whey and high GI carbs would be digested/absorbed to too quickly IMO to be the last meal of the day.

dirty-c
07-22-2003, 07:20 AM
aka23, I read the article you posted. If I ciphered through the jargon correctly, they basically found the following:

1.) excess carboydrate intake DOES basically stop the use of fat as fuel (lipolysis)
2.) excess carbs DOES increase the rate of fat storage (lipogenesis, aka DNL) by a factor of 10, although the absolute DNL is still relatively low.
3.) If one were given no previous knowledge, DNL could be examined qualitatively (i.e, to give a general indication) to determine if there had been a previous state of excess carb intake.
4.) quote: "+50% fat diet had no effects on HGP, DNL, or fuel selection." This basically means that increasing fat intake will not necessarily decrease fat production (lipogenesis) like all the low-carb gurus suggest, nor will it increase fat production like the traditional low-fat/high-carbers would have you believe.

aka23
07-22-2003, 08:13 AM
Originally posted by dirty-c
aka23, I read the article you posted. If I ciphered through the jargon correctly, they basically found the following:

1.) excess carboydrate intake DOES basically stop the use of fat as fuel (lipolysis)
2.) excess carbs DOES increase the rate of fat storage (lipogenesis, aka DNL) by a factor of 10, although the absolute DNL is still relatively low.
3.) If one were given no previous knowledge, DNL could be examined qualitatively (i.e, to give a general indication) to determine if there had been a previous state of excess carb intake.
4.) quote: "+50% fat diet had no effects on HGP, DNL, or fuel selection." This basically means that increasing fat intake will not necessarily decrease fat production (lipogenesis) like all the low-carb gurus suggest, nor will it increase fat production like the traditional low-fat/high-carbers would have you believe.

For the most part I agree, with some minor clarifications.
1. This study involved a carbohydrate surplus at 50% above maintenance calories. At such levels the use of fat for fuel would drop dramatically since the body needs to increase its fat stores to account for the increased calories. However, at more typical calorie levels the body still burns a reasonably normal mixture of fat and carbs (glucose/glycogen), just the fraction of carbs gets higher as the ratio of carb/fat intake increases.
2. The study found that 50% surplus of carbs increased DNS by a factor of 10, which was under 5g per day. I would expect the results to lower and insignificant when there was not such an extreme surplus of calories.
3. I agree.
4. I interpret this to mean that with 50% surplus calories from fat, the body did not effect the amount of carbs/protein being converted to fat (DNL) and did not effect the breakdown of muscle/liver glycogen (HGP). Basically the excess calories were being stored as fats. In the end, the excess calories over a long period are usually going to result in increased fat stores. The mechanism is just different when the surplus calories are from fat or carbs.

dirty-c
07-22-2003, 09:01 AM
Maybe one of my problems is that I don't understand what HGP is. Is it the process of gettin glucose from ONLY muscle/liver breakdown, or can it also applied to the general process of glucose production?

Maybe an explanation of the following statement will help me. Quote: "Increased HGP on surplus CHO occurred despite significantly higher serum insulin concentrations." Is this suggesting that the breakdown of muscle/liver glycogen occurs despite elevated carb levels? That also brings up the issue, what does "breakdown" mean in this context? Does it refer to the normal process where by muscle and liver use their glycogen stores? Or does it refer to the catabolic state in which lean mass is broken down and used as fuel in the form of glucose?

Thanks for your patience with me aka!

aka23
07-22-2003, 09:47 AM
HGP stands for hepatic (liver) glucose production. It occurs from glycogenolysis (the breakdown of glycogen, the storage form of glucose) and gluconeogenesis (the synthesis of glucose from fats/protein). Insulin controls hyperglycemia (high blood sugar, often related to diabetes) by inhibiting hepatic glucose production. The researchers found that despite the increased insulin, the HPG increased. This probably means that the body was converting its glycogen reserves into fuel to avoid a spillover. Lean mass was not being broken down.

dirty-c
07-22-2003, 10:28 AM
Hmmm, interesting. Everything I've read suggests that the body has a very specific order in which it seeks energy. First, it checks the blood stream for glucose. If it finds it, then insulin is released and the insulin helps transport the glucose into the cells for immediate use as energy (and hence no need to use stored glycogen). If it doesn't find enough blood sugar, then it will break down glycogen stores to supply glucose.

This is just me hypothesizing, but this research seems to suggest that as long as the carb-up period is kept short in duration (less that 5 days), this process actually occurs in reverse. If the body detects high blood sugar levels, the body will release insulin, but the cells will FIRST use stored glycogen and THEN replenish their glycogen stores (the reverse of what common teachings say).

If I am correct, I think this is good news for bodybuilders who want to make sure they have plenty of energy and minimal fat storage. Lets hope so.

EdgarMex
07-22-2003, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by bradley


Have you thought about eating you whole food meal ~2-2.5 hours before training and then having a small pre-workout shake immediately before training? Then after your workout take in some slow digesting protein and low GI carbs since you will be sleeping for ~8 hours or so. The whey and high GI carbs would be digested/absorbed to too quickly IMO to be the last meal of the day.


Thanks for the info, Brad. I'm about to get done with the TKD and this will be very helpful on the new diet plan I'm working on.

bradley
07-22-2003, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by dirty-c
Hmmm, interesting. Everything I've read suggests that the body has a very specific order in which it seeks energy. First, it checks the blood stream for glucose. If it finds it, then insulin is released and the insulin helps transport the glucose into the cells for immediate use as energy (and hence no need to use stored glycogen). If it doesn't find enough blood sugar, then it will break down glycogen stores to supply glucose.

This might help clear things up, but the body will use fuel from various sources depending on the circumstance (anaerobic/aerobic pathways).

http://www.exrx.net/Nutrition/Substrates.html