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Fenbay
07-25-2003, 02:34 PM
Doing a CKD/TKD type diet.

I've heard varying claims of morning cardio on keto being oh so horribly catabolic due to increased levels of catabolic hormones etc.

So question is: Would I burn a buncha fat and still save my muscle if I consumed high GI carb like dextrose right after a cardio workout similiar to after weightlifting exercises or would my muscle start burning the minute I started the aerobic activity??

greekboy80
07-25-2003, 03:39 PM
bump i would like to know also(same diet--CKD). but i always eat before, so not really sure. what kind of cardio do you do? i dont think it starts to catobolize the minute you start, i would believe that if it was prolonged for more than 45min to and hour then you prob would be taxing you body more.

Bradley---------little help?

bradley
07-25-2003, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by Fenbay
I've heard varying claims of morning cardio on keto being oh so horribly catabolic due to increased levels of catabolic hormones etc.

Well technically when you are in ketosis you are in a catabolic state due to the increase in glucagon, decrease in insulin and
IGF-1, etc.



So question is: Would I burn a buncha fat and still save my muscle if I consumed high GI carb like dextrose right after a cardio workout similiar to after weightlifting exercises or would my muscle start burning the minute I started the aerobic activity??

Well you will mobilize more fat performing cardio in a depleted state, but you also run the risk of catabolizing LBM. This risk would increase as exercise intensity increases.

Although this is just speculation but I really do not think you are going to see much difference if you were to perform the cardio on an empty stomach or have a protein/fat meal before hand. A protein/fat meal could possible help preserve some LBM, but you will still be in a depleted state due to the lack of liver glycogen (catabolic state).

Consuming dextrose post workout would be beneficial in that it would put the body in a more anabolic state, but you would also kick yourself out of ketosis. Another thing to keep in mind is that a ketogenic diet will support low/moderate intensity cardio, but higher intensity cardio would not be ideal due to the lack of muscle glycogen. You would want to conserve muscle glycogen for your weight training sessions. Since you would be performing low/moderate intensity cardio the addition of dextrose would just end up eliminating any calorie deficit that you created from the cardio.

greekboy80
07-26-2003, 04:48 PM
so walking for 30 min(4mph), uphill, is ok...right?

bradley
07-26-2003, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by greekboy80
so walking for 30 min(4mph), uphill, is ok...right?

Should be fine.:)

AJ_11
07-27-2003, 03:23 AM
Originally posted by bradley


Well technically when you are in ketosis you are in a catabolic state due to the increase in glucagon, decrease in insulin and
IGF-1, etc.



When your in ketosis, your body uses fat as a fuel source. I don't believe that your in a catabolic state nescessarily, unless you overdo it on the cardio.




Consuming dextrose post workout would be beneficial in that it would put the body in a more anabolic state, but you would also kick yourself out of ketosis.

If you take in a small amt. w/ whey you should be fine, but it depends on your workout and how your body responds to is.

If it is just low/mod cardio that you are doing I would recommend just taking in some whey. Not too much but enough to counter catabolism. I don't think that you will really benefit from an insulin response doing cardio, and taking dextrose.

I would also recommend that you do not go on a empty stomach. Have a protein and fat meal, preferably some saturated fat, MCT oil, as it is excellent for energy.

What works for me is a bacon and egg breakfast.

After take in some slow digesting protein like egg, caesin. Then have a regular p+F meal about two hours later.

If your training w/ weight go w/ some dextrose maybe 15-30g with some whey. 30-40g. If doing proper carb ups you should be ok.

bradley
07-27-2003, 05:41 AM
Originally posted by AJ_11
When your in ketosis, your body uses fat as a fuel source. I don't believe that your in a catabolic state nescessarily, unless you overdo it on the cardio.

I have to disagree. As I stated above looking at it from a hormonal aspect your body is in a catabolic state due to the decreased levels of insulin and IGF-1 and the increase in hormones such as glucagon. The liver is also in a fasted state which is another indicator of being in a catabolic state.

While I am not saying that you are burning up muscle for fuel, but the ketogenic diet is far from anabolic, and there is no in between.



If you take in a small amt. w/ whey you should be fine, but it depends on your workout and how your body responds to is.


I am unsure as to what the benefit of taking in dextrose post workout would be. If you are just performing low/moderate intensity cardio then glycogen levels would be pretty much unaffected so why add carbs or whey for that matter? The whey itself would cause enough of an insulin response without the carbs to disrupt fat burning. What I am getting at is that after cardio just have a regularly scheduled meal or a shake that contains a slow digesting protein with some fat.



If it is just low/mod cardio that you are doing I would recommend just taking in some whey. Not too much but enough to counter catabolism. I don't think that you will really benefit from an insulin response doing cardio, and taking dextrose.

As I stated above the whey would cause an insulin response.



I would also recommend that you do not go on a empty stomach. Have a protein and fat meal, preferably some saturated fat, MCT oil, as it is excellent for energy.

While I agree that consuming something before hand would be a good way to ensure that you are not using LBM for fuel, but I also feel that it is not going to make that much of a difference if you stick with low/moderate intensity cardio.



If your training w/ weight go w/ some dextrose maybe 15-30g with some whey. 30-40g. If doing proper carb ups you should be ok.

I am assuming you are referring to pre-workout.

bradley
07-27-2003, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by AJ_11
Have a protein and fat meal, preferably some saturated fat, MCT oil, as it is excellent for energy.


Ran across this on pubmed while looking for something else. Anyway thought it was interesting. Good call on the MCTs:)

--------------------------------------

Medium-chain triglycerides increase energy expenditure and decrease adiposity in overweight men.

St-Onge MP, Ross R, Parsons WD, Jones PJ.

School of Dietetics and Human Nutrition, McGill University, Ste-Anne-de-Bellevue, Quebec, Canada.

OBJECTIVE: The objectives of this study were to compare the effects of diets rich in medium-chain triglycerides (MCTs) or long-chain triglycerides (LCTs) on body composition, energy expenditure, substrate oxidation, subjective appetite, and ad libitum energy intake in overweight men. RESEARCH METHODS AND PROCEDURES: Twenty-four healthy, overweight men with body mass indexes between 25 and 31 kg/m(2) consumed diets rich in MCT or LCT for 28 days each in a crossover randomized controlled trial. At baseline and after 4 weeks of each dietary intervention, energy expenditure was measured using indirect calorimetry, and body composition was analyzed using magnetic resonance imaging. RESULTS: Upper body adipose tissue (AT) decreased to a greater extent (p < 0.05) with functional oil (FctO) compared with olive oil (OL) consumption (-0.67 +/- 0.26 kg and -0.02 +/- 0.19 kg, respectively). There was a trend toward greater loss of whole-body subcutaneous AT volume (p = 0.087) with FctO compared with OL consumption. Average energy expenditure was 0.04 +/- 0.02 kcal/min greater (p < 0.05) on day 2 and 0.03 +/- 0.02 kcal/min (not significant) on day 28 with FctO compared with OL consumption. Similarly, average fat oxidation was greater (p = 0.052) with FctO compared with OL intake on day 2 but not day 28. DISCUSSION: Consumption of a diet rich in MCTs results in greater loss of AT compared with LCTs, perhaps due to increased energy expenditure and fat oxidation observed with MCT intake. Thus, MCTs may be considered as agents that aid in the prevention of obesity or potentially stimulate weight loss.

dirty-c
07-28-2003, 10:14 AM
So what foods contain these wonderful MCTs?

bradley
07-28-2003, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by dirty-c
So what foods contain these wonderful MCTs?

Coconut oil and palm kernel oil are good sources of MCTs, although supplementation is probably one of the more common methods of incrorporating them into your diet.