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Khar
07-31-2003, 06:17 PM
Is there an agreed upon 'daily value' of n-3 fatty acids? On workout days I consume 10-12 1g fish oil caps which contain 180mg EPA/120mg DHA. If I only have 10 on a workout day that means I am also having 6oz of salmon for dinner. I also take 1 Tbsp on flax oil which contains 7700mg of ala. How much EPA/DHA is contained in 6oz of poached salmon? Is there any benefit to taking in higher than you need? Price really isn't a concern. I get my flax, fish caps, and salmon extremely cheap.

bradley
08-01-2003, 03:24 AM
Originally posted by Khar
Is there an agreed upon 'daily value' of n-3 fatty acids?

Well there have been minimum requirements set forth, but as far as what is "ideal" is up in the air. Most fish oil studies use 6g per day and is also the recommended intake that I see most often. Also the ratio of n-6 to n-3 fats is important as well, and somwhere in the neighborhood of 3-1:1 would be a good ratio to shoot for.

Although taking more will not hurt.:)



How much EPA/DHA is contained in 6oz of poached salmon?

This is for 3oz. of Atlantic Salmon (wild)

Lipids
Fatty acids, total saturated g 0.834
14:0 g 0.116
16:0 g 0.537
18:0 g 0.180
Fatty acids, total monounsaturated g 1.788
16:1 undifferentiated g 0.213
18:1 undifferentiated g 1.148
20:1 g 0.190
22:1 undifferentiated g 0.237
Fatty acids, total polyunsaturated g 2.158
18:2 undifferentiated g 0.146
18:3 undifferentiated g 0.251
18:4 g 0.071
20:4 undifferentiated g 0.227
20:5 n-3 g 0.273
22:5 n-3 g 0.244
22:6 n-3 g 0.948

EPA= 273mg
DHA= 948mg



Is there any benefit to taking in higher than you need? Price really isn't a concern.

I think the idea behind taking more than 6g per day is to ensure that your are reaping all the benefits of fish oil supplementation. The benefits of fish oil extend from general health benefits (cardiovascular) to nutrient partitioning effects.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11285313&dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2141757&dopt=Abstract

aka23
08-01-2003, 09:24 AM
Originally posted by Khar
Is there an agreed upon 'daily value' of n-3 fatty acids? On workout days I consume 10-12 1g fish oil caps which contain 180mg EPA/120mg DHA.

I believe that there is little need for very large doses of omega-3 or EPA/DHA supplements except for certain special cases. Most studies showing benefits of omega-3 EFAs only used 1-2g EPA/DHA. A few showed benefits of 2-4g, but these were usually for treatments of specific medical conditions. I think there is little evidence showing additional benefits for the very large doses that are sometimes used among bodybuilders. In some cases, the benefits decrease with increased dosage and the potential for negative side effects increases.

The AHA, British Nutrition Foundation, Health & Welfare Canada, NATO, COMA, and various other major health organizations recommend 0-2g/day of Omega-3 fatty acids. The 1st Congress on the International Society for the Study of Fatty Acids and Lipids suggested an optimal intake of 0.3 to 0.4 g/day EPA and DHA. The FDA has only approved 2 grams EPA/DHA per day because of their blood thinning properities. Even for specific medical conditions, the recommendations are usually low. The AHA recommends 1g day EPA/DHA for persons with coronary heart disease.

I believe that there are benefits of high doses for certain persons with poor/odd diets (lots of bad fats, unusually high ratio or large amount of of omega-6 fats, and/or lots of refined carbs), persons with specific medical conditions, and certain persons with a genetic predisposition to store fat. Much of the benefits of omega-3 EFAs are associated with correcting deficiencies, which are common among Americans. However, I think that most persons would have little additional benefits from large doses once the deficiency is corrected.

bradley
08-01-2003, 10:56 AM
Originally posted by aka23


I believe that there is little need for very large doses of omega-3 or EPA/DHA supplements except for certain special cases. Most studies showing benefits of omega-3 EFAs only used 1-2g EPA/DHA. A few showed benefits of 2-4g, but these were usually for treatments of specific medical conditions.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2141757&dopt=Abstract
This abstract above states that 3g of EPA/DHA yielded better results than the 1.5g dose.




The AHA, British Nutrition Foundation, Health & Welfare Canada, NATO, COMA, and various other major health organizations recommend 0-2g/day of Omega-3 fatty acids. The 1st Congress on the International Society for the Study of Fatty Acids and Lipids suggested an optimal intake of 0.3 to 0.4 g/day EPA and DHA. The FDA has only approved 2 grams EPA/DHA per day because of their blood thinning properities. Even for specific medical conditions, the recommendations are usually low. The AHA recommends 1g day EPA/DHA for persons with coronary heart disease.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2341828&dopt=Abstract
The above study states that 2.7g of EPA had no effect on bleeding time.



I believe that there are benefits of high doses for certain persons with poor/odd diets (lots of bad fats, unusually high ratio of omega-6 fats, and/or lots of refined carbs), persons with specific medical conditions, and certain persons with a genetic predisposition to store fat (endomorphs). Much of the benefits of omega-3 EFAs are associated with correcting deficiencies, which are common among Americans. However, I think that most persons would have little additional benefits from large doses once the deficiency is corrected.

While I agree that taking in too much fish oil would more than likely be overkill and I am sure there is a limit as to the benefits that can be derived from fish oil supplementation.

chops
08-01-2003, 05:11 PM
i bought fish caps at costo, 300mg EPA and 200mg DHA per 2 caps. http://www.usp-dsvp.org is the site the label refers to, for their testing standards.


i called the "vitamin hotline" listed on the label 800-428 7742 to ask if the caps are tested for mercury.

.005kg mercury per serving - i assume this is considered low and safe?

then the rep said something about the info not being on their website and referred to prop 65.

input?

restless
08-01-2003, 07:13 PM
Originally posted by chops



i called the "vitamin hotline" listed on the label 800-428 7742 to ask if the caps are tested for mercury.

.005kg mercury per serving - i assume this is considered low and safe?





If it had that much mercury people would dying left and right from it. 5 gr?? There has to be some missunderstanding in there.

restless
08-01-2003, 07:15 PM
Originally posted by aka23


I believe that there is little need for very large doses of omega-3 or EPA/DHA supplements except for certain special cases. Most studies showing benefits of omega-3 EFAs only used 1-2g EPA/DHA. A few showed benefits of 2-4g, but these were usually for treatments of specific medical conditions. I think there is little evidence showing additional benefits for the very large doses that are sometimes used among bodybuilders. In some cases, the benefits decrease with increased dosage and the potential for negative side effects increases.

The AHA, British Nutrition Foundation, Health & Welfare Canada, NATO, COMA, and various other major health organizations recommend 0-2g/day of Omega-3 fatty acids. The 1st Congress on the International Society for the Study of Fatty Acids and Lipids suggested an optimal intake of 0.3 to 0.4 g/day EPA and DHA. The FDA has only approved 2 grams EPA/DHA per day because of their blood thinning properities. Even for specific medical conditions, the recommendations are usually low. The AHA recommends 1g day EPA/DHA for persons with coronary heart disease.

I believe that there are benefits of high doses for certain persons with poor/odd diets (lots of bad fats, unusually high ratio of omega-6 fats, and/or lots of refined carbs), persons with specific medical conditions, and certain persons with a genetic predisposition to store fat (endomorphs). Much of the benefits of omega-3 EFAs are associated with correcting deficiencies, which are common among Americans. However, I think that most persons would have little additional benefits from large doses once the deficiency is corrected.

Aka, 10-12 caps of fish oils is not really a very large dose, it's only 3 gr of combined EPA/DHA. A very large dose would be the 18 gr the Enuit get per day.

Scott S
08-02-2003, 11:27 PM
A friend once told me that omega-3s increase insulin sensitivity on muscle cells and omega-6s increase insulin sensitivity on fat cells. Is this incorrect?

I'm still kinda confused on how the partitioning works.

Khar
08-03-2003, 04:24 AM
Originally posted by restless


Aka, 10-12 caps of fish oils is not really a very large dose, it's only 3 gr of combined EPA/DHA. A very large dose would be the 18 gr the Enuit get per day.

This is in conjunction with my flax oil and salmon steaks...

bradley
08-03-2003, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by Scott S
A friend once told me that omega-3s increase insulin sensitivity on muscle cells and omega-6s increase insulin sensitivity on fat cells. Is this incorrect?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11390373&dopt=Abstract

Also EPA/DHA have beneficial effects on the fluidity of the cell memebrane which could explain the the beneficial effect that n-3s have on insulin sensitivity.
http://www.omega3fishoil.org/fishoilresearch.asp?id=10

The abstracts below comment on high intakes of n-6 fatty acids.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8960090&dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8001841&dopt=Abstract




I'm still kinda confused on how the partitioning works.

Short answer would be gene expression.:)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11285313&dopt=Abstract

dirty-c
08-04-2003, 06:59 AM
Theres a lot of talk about the n-6:n-3 ratio, but what about the n-9's? Such as olive oil? Has anyone seen any recommendations about the dosage of n-9?

aka23
08-04-2003, 09:46 AM
A few experts have suggested that the anti-inflammatory nature of large doses of EPA/DHA may interfere with hypertrophy and muscle growth. This is not much of a stretch since several studies have suggested that other NSAIDs may interfere with muscle growth. For example:

http://www.jcb.org/cgi/content/abstract/161/1/111
"Given this novel role for PGF2 in skeletal muscle cell growth, these studies raise caution that extended use of drugs that inhibit PG production, such as nonsteroidal antiinflammatory drugs, may be deleterious for muscle growth. "

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11832356&dopt=Abstract
"These results suggest that over-the-counter doses of both ibuprofen and acetaminophen suppress the protein synthesis response in skeletal muscle after eccentric resistance exercise."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11600586&dopt=Abstract
"These results suggest that ibuprofen and acetaminophen have a comparable effect on suppressing the normal increase in PGF(2alpha) in human skeletal muscle after eccentric resistance exercise, which may profoundly influence the anabolic response of muscle to this form of exercise."

Other studies have found that certain side effects of fish oil combined with Aspirin and other NSAIDs are significantly greater than either alone. For example:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2109371&dopt=Abstract
"Aspirin alone prolonged bleeding times by 34% (p less than 0.05). Fish oil alone raised bleeding times only slightly (9%; N.S.), but aspirin plus fish oil raised them by 78% (p less than 0.01). "

I would be interested to know more about studies of fish oil combined with weight training. I would like to know if there was any effect on strength and hypertrophy and if so, what doses and what length of use are required to produce such an effect. I would also be interested to know if these effects were magnified when fish oil is combined with other NSAIDs, such as aspirin.

bradley
08-04-2003, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by aka23
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11832356&dopt=Abstract
"These results suggest that over-the-counter doses of both ibuprofen and acetaminophen suppress the protein synthesis response in skeletal muscle after eccentric resistance exercise."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11600586&dopt=Abstract
"These results suggest that ibuprofen and acetaminophen have a comparable effect on suppressing the normal increase in PGF(2alpha) in human skeletal muscle after eccentric resistance exercise, which may profoundly influence the anabolic response of muscle to this form of exercise."

While I am not disputing the effects that NSAIDs have on protein synthesis, but you also have to take into account the amount of ibuprogen and acetaminophen that these two studies were using (1,200mg and 4,000mg respectively).



Other studies have found that certain side effects of fish oil combined with Aspirin and other NSAIDs are significantly greater than either alone. For example:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2109371&dopt=Abstract
"Aspirin alone prolonged bleeding times by 34% (p less than 0.05). Fish oil alone raised bleeding times only slightly (9%; N.S.), but aspirin plus fish oil raised them by 78% (p less than 0.01). "


Interesting point and I never really considered the synergistic effects that fish oil and other drugs such as ibuprofen and aspirin could have on bleeding times.



I would be interested to know more about studies of fish oil combined with weight training. I would like to know if there was any effect on strength and hypertrophy and if so, what doses and what length of use are required to produce such an effect. I would also be interested to know if these effects were magnified when fish oil is combined with other NSAIDs, such as aspirin.

What about the indirect effects that fish could have on muscle cells, such as increased insulin sensitivity? Also the nutrient partioning benefits of fish oil?

bradley
08-04-2003, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by dirty-c
Theres a lot of talk about the n-6:n-3 ratio, but what about the n-9's? Such as olive oil? Has anyone seen any recommendations about the dosage of n-9?

Omega-9 fatty acids are monunsaturated fats which are not essential to the body, but they can be used to boost overall fat intake. Monounsaturated fats will not disrupt the n-6 to n-3 ratio so they can be thought of as a neutral fat.

Even though olive oil does not offer much in the way of essential fatty acids, it does offer other health benefits.

Here is one interesting study that I found interesting in relation to olive oil and monounsaturated fat.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12037652&dopt=Abstract

restless
08-04-2003, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by aka23
A few experts have suggested that the anti-inflammatory nature of large doses of EPA/DHA may interfere with hypertrophy and muscle growth. This is not much of a stretch since several studies have suggested that other NSAIDs may interfere with muscle growth. For example:

http://www.jcb.org/cgi/content/abstract/161/1/111
"Given this novel role for PGF2 in skeletal muscle cell growth, these studies raise caution that extended use of drugs that inhibit PG production, such as nonsteroidal antiinflammatory drugs, may be deleterious for muscle growth. "

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11832356&dopt=Abstract
"These results suggest that over-the-counter doses of both ibuprofen and acetaminophen suppress the protein synthesis response in skeletal muscle after eccentric resistance exercise."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11600586&dopt=Abstract
"These results suggest that ibuprofen and acetaminophen have a comparable effect on suppressing the normal increase in PGF(2alpha) in human skeletal muscle after eccentric resistance exercise, which may profoundly influence the anabolic response of muscle to this form of exercise."

Other studies have found that certain side effects of fish oil combined with Aspirin and other NSAIDs are significantly greater than either alone. For example:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2109371&dopt=Abstract
"Aspirin alone prolonged bleeding times by 34% (p less than 0.05). Fish oil alone raised bleeding times only slightly (9%; N.S.), but aspirin plus fish oil raised them by 78% (p less than 0.01). "

I would be interested to know more about studies of fish oil combined with weight training. I would like to know if there was any effect on strength and hypertrophy and if so, what doses and what length of use are required to produce such an effect. I would also be interested to know if these effects were magnified when fish oil is combined with other NSAIDs, such as aspirin.


It's a huge leap of faith to afirm that fish oils share the protein synthesis supressing qualities that NSAID's have just because they both have anti inflamatory properties. I'm curious, do you have any evidence on this? I have never heard anyone making such claims among the people I recognize as experts.

restless
08-04-2003, 12:42 PM
The only thing I've found was this one that shows a reduction in protein degradation and synthesis in diabetic rats with a 19% of total calories of omega 3, which would equal to 66 gr of omega 3 for someone eating 3000 Kcals a day. THi sis ridiculously high dosage. They also say that this intake resulted in a decrease in protein degradation, so the increment in protein synthesis must have been superior to the one in degradation.


Dietary omega 3 fatty acid alters prostaglandin synthesis, glucose transport and protein turnover in skeletal muscle of healthy and diabetic rats.

Sohal PS, Baracos VE, Clandinin MT.

Nutrition and Metabolism Research Group, Faculty of Medicine, University of Alberta, Edmonton.

The present study was designed to determine if dietary-fat-induced alterations in the fatty acid composition of skeletal-muscle lipid alters insulin-dependent and basal muscle metabolism, including glucose and amino acid transport, prostaglandin (PG) synthesis and protein turnover. Rats were fed on high-fat semi-purified diets providing 19% or 1% omega 3 fatty acids in the form of fish oil, for 6 weeks. After 3 weeks, half of the rats were made diabetic by a single injection of streptozotocin (50 mg/kg body wt.). After a further 3 weeks, contralateral epitrochlearis and extensor digitorum longus (EDL) muscles from each rat were incubated in vitro. High levels of dietary omega 3 fatty acids decreased PGE2 and PGF2 alpha synthesis in EDL and epitrochlearis muscle (P less than 0.0001). Diabetes and insulin had no effect on PG synthesis. Diet did not alter basal glucose or amino acid transport in EDL muscle from healthy or diabetic rats. Insulin increased glucose and amino acid transport (P less than 0.0001); the increase in glucose transport by insulin was significantly greater in muscles of rats fed on high levels of omega 3 fatty acids (P less than 0.05). Epitrochlearis from rats fed on high levels of omega 3 fatty acids showed decreased net protein degradation in the presence and absence of insulin, owing to decreased rates of protein degradation and synthesis. The data suggest that high levels of dietary omega 3 fatty acids that alter muscle membrane composition also result in alterations in glucose transport and the metabolism of muscle protein.

PMID: 1530573 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

aka23
08-04-2003, 02:11 PM
The first study I linked to stated that, "Given this novel role for PGF2 in skeletal muscle cell growth, these studies raise caution that extended use of drugs that inhibit PG production, such as nonsteroidal antiinflammatory drugs, may be deleterious for muscle growth." Omega-3 EFAs have been show to reduce PG production (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1971442&dopt=Abstract ) , so I do not consider it a huge leap of faith to suggest a connection. What I am interested in is the strength of this connection. Berardi and a couple others have also mentioned this link, but I have never seen studies, conclusive evidence, or dosages necessary to see such effects.

Rats tend to be a poor model for humans in protein/body composition related issues because they have different functional pathways, use dietary nutrients differently, and have different EAA requirements. Diabetic (rats or humans) are also not the best model since they handle insulin differently than the average person and are effected differently by changes in insulin sensitivity, as would occur under large dosages of fish oil supplementation. I would be more interested in studies of resistance training combined with large doses of fish oil in healthy humans. I did not provide more conclusive evidence in my post because I was unable to find any related studies myself.

Spartacus
08-04-2003, 02:32 PM
does the ratio of omega 3 to omega six depend on what kind of omega 3 you get? i'm wonderin because i understand that ALA is partially converted to other omega 3s and so perhaps smaller amounts of fish oil would have the same effect as larger amounts of Ala

also, is a cup of peanuts a significant amount of omega 6 (20g) ? i eat 1 or two a day. thanks

Scott S
08-04-2003, 04:19 PM
I'm starting to get it... thanks.

bradley
08-04-2003, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by Spartacus
does the ratio of omega 3 to omega six depend on what kind of omega 3 you get? i'm wonderin because i understand that ALA is partially converted to other omega 3s and so perhaps smaller amounts of fish oil would have the same effect as larger amounts of Ala

You are correct in that the conversion of ALA to EPA/DHA is not an effecient process in the body. Therefore you would have to consume more ALA to get the same amount of EPA/DHA that you would from fish oil.

You would be better served just supplementing with the fish oil over the flaxseed oil.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9637947&dopt=Abstract
"More specifically, most studies in humans have shown that whereas a certain, though restricted, conversion of high doses of ALA to EPA occurs, conversion to DHA is severely restricted. The use of ALA labelled with radioisotopes suggested that with a background diet high in saturated fat conversion to long-chain metabolites is approximately 6% for EPA and 3.8% for DHA. With a diet rich in n-6 PUFA, conversion is reduced by 40 to 50%. "



also, is a cup of peanuts a significant amount of omega 6 (20g) ? i eat 1 or two a day. thanks

Peanuts contain a higher amount of monounsaturated fat, but they do contain some n-6 fattty acids as indicated below.

Peanuts, raw (28.35g)

Lipids
Fatty acids, total saturated g 1.937
4:0 g 0.000
6:0 g 0.000
8:0 g 0.000
10:0 g 0.000
12:0 g 0.000
14:0 g 0.007
16:0 g 1.461
18:0 g 0.312
Fatty acids, total monounsaturated g 6.926
16:1 undifferentiated g 0.003
18:1 undifferentiated g 6.735
20:1 g 0.187
22:1 undifferentiated g 0.000
Fatty acids, total polyunsaturated g 4.411
18:2 undifferentiated g 4.410
18:3 undifferentiated g 0.001
18:4 g 0.000
20:4 undifferentiated g 0.000
20:5 n-3 g 0.000
22:5 n-3 g 0.000
22:6 n-3 g 0.000

Manveet
12-16-2003, 05:38 PM
bump.

Great thread, lots of info.

universal
12-17-2003, 09:47 AM
i am planning to take 3 g of eph/dha...assuming u can aford it, am i correct to assume this is the best dosage, and should be taken all year round? (im an endo and i ve heard it to be better to take fish all the time)

Manveet
12-17-2003, 10:16 AM
3g sounds pretty good.

manowar669
12-17-2003, 02:57 PM
In the breakdown of peanuts above posted by Bradley, which fats are the n-6? I see the n-3s. Sorry if I seem like a moronowar.

Spartacus
12-17-2003, 03:04 PM
18:2 undifferentiated ->linoleic acid which is omega 6.

DumbbellTosser
12-18-2003, 11:10 AM
Bradley, you say: "You would be better served just supplementing with the fish oil over the flaxseed oil."

Can you give reasons why you think supplementing with fish oil is better than flax oil as a source of omega 3's. I've been trying to decide which supplement to purchase.

Also, I heard fish oil caps aren't as good as taking straight fish oil with a tablespoon. anybody have an thought on that?

TheGimp
12-18-2003, 12:59 PM
Flax oil is in the form of ALA which your body needs to convert to EPA/DHA. The conversion is quite inefficient and can be influenced by things such as caffeine intake. Fish oil is already in the form of EPA/DHA.

Fish caps aren't as good as oil simply because its easier to take a lot more with a spoon. A teaspoon for example is about 5ml of oil, which would probably be equivalent to 5 capsules. And if you're supposed to take 10ml, well, you get the idea ;)

bradley
12-20-2003, 04:04 AM
Also, I heard fish oil caps aren't as good as taking straight fish oil with a tablespoon. anybody have an thought on that?

I use the fish oil caps out of convenience and taste, but I do not see any reason that one would be superior to the other. Fish oil is superior to flax oil for the reasons Gimp mentioned.