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John0101
08-02-2003, 07:17 PM
In my last bulk I was eating high protien, high carbs and high fat (I gained about 20-25 pounds). I definally gained some muscle, but I also gain quite a bit of fat. Within a few months I am planning a bulk and I am wondering what kind of diet will add the most amount of LBM and the least amount of fat. I am going to eat about 750-1000 calories over each day, and looking to try to gain 25-35 pounds over 6-8 months.

I was thinking...

High protein, moderate carbs, moderate fat?

or

High protein, high carbs, low fat?

or

high protein, low carbs, moderate fat?

or...? I just don't know.

SoulOfKoRea
08-02-2003, 08:54 PM
well the best way to gain weight and keep fat as low as possible would be to only increase calories enough to where you're gaining weight gradually, while increasing cardiovascular exercise. the macro breakdown alone couldn't play that significant of a role during your bulking state as long as you have enough protein, and enough omega 3 and omega 6's, just fill in the gaps with carbs or more fats.

of course it's going to take longer to gain and stay at a lower bodyfat than compared to a traditional bulk of 1 lb/week.

bradley
08-03-2003, 04:57 AM
Originally posted by John0101
I am going to eat about 750-1000 calories over each day, and looking to try to gain 25-35 pounds over 6-8 months.


Gaining 25-35lbs. over the course of 6-8 months is possible, but that is a little ambitious IMO. You might try concentrating on gaining a smaller amount of weight each week which would help to minimize fat gains.

Dedicated
08-03-2003, 10:07 AM
Originally posted by bradley

Gaining 25-35lbs. over the course of 6-8 months is possible, but that is a little ambitious IMO.
When I was 18 I gained 25 pounds in about 3-4 months. Not all of it was muscle and some was fat. With it also came some slight stretch marks on my chest. So yea I'd try to minimize fat gain while doing this so you don't stretch the skin to much. Goodluck, I think bulking is easy as long as you eat enough and work hard, it's not gaining the fat that is hard!

HORNEDFROGS07
08-03-2003, 10:18 PM
Without fail, you will gain a little amount of fat with any bulking cycle. Just do like Soul said and increase the cardio to keep it lower.

dirty-c
08-04-2003, 10:49 AM
This thread provoked a question in me that I have always wondered by never knew the answer to. I know that in order to gain muscle, you must be consuming more calories than you take in. However, exactly HOW MUCH above maintenance does one need to be? 100, 250, 500 calories?

Is there a direct correlation between your amount of calories over maintenance and the rate at which you can add muscle? I imagine that like all things, you hit a point of diminishing returns. I'm sure you can add more muscle eating 2000 calories over maintenance that you can at 200 over, but you'll also probably gain A LOT more fat.
However, that point aside, my question is would you EVER want to be consuming 1000 (or maybe even 2000) calories over maintenance?

bradley
08-04-2003, 11:24 AM
There are other things that would come into play besides calorie intake. One thing in particular that comes to mind would be hormones, and obviously someone that has more test floating around in there system would be able to add more LBM in a shorter amount of time. Insulin would also be another important hormone in regards to adding LBM.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11255140&dopt=Abstract
"The response of muscle protein metabolism to a resistance exercise bout lasts for 24-48 hours; thus, the interaction between protein metabolism and any meals consumed in this period will determine the impact of the diet on muscle hypertrophy. Amino acid availability is an important regulator of muscle protein metabolism. The interaction of postexercise metabolic processes and increased amino acid availability maximizes the stimulation of muscle protein synthesis and results in even greater muscle anabolism than when dietary amino acids are not present. Hormones, especially insulin and testosterone, have important roles as regulators of muscle protein synthesis and muscle hypertrophy. Following exercise, insulin has only a permissive role on muscle protein synthesis, but it appears to inhibit the increase in muscle protein breakdown."

Another thing that comes to mind is the difference in somatotypes.

There is much more to it than this, obviously. I feel safe in saying that there is not a recommended amount that one needs to eat over maintenance to accomplish optimal LBM gains. Experimentation with different calorie levels will yield the best results, and the best way to go about doing this would be to track your body composition and strive for the largest amount of weight gain with the smallest increase in LBM. Also incorporating sound nutirtional strategies such as pre/post workout nutrition will help in regards to muscle hypertrophy.


originally posted by dirty-c
I know that in order to gain muscle, you must be consuming more calories than you take in.

This would not necessarily be the case all the time. Untrained or overweight individuals are likely to be able to lose bf while adding LBM.

LAM
08-04-2003, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by John0101
In my last bulk I was eating high protien, high carbs and high fat (I gained about 20-25 pounds). I definally gained some muscle, but I also gain quite a bit of fat. Within a few months I am planning a bulk and I am wondering what kind of diet will add the most amount of LBM and the least amount of fat. I am going to eat about 750-1000 calories over each day, and looking to try to gain 25-35 pounds over 6-8 months.

I was thinking...

High protein, moderate carbs, moderate fat?

or

High protein, high carbs, low fat?

or

high protein, low carbs, moderate fat?

or...? I just don't know.

go isocaloric (33/33/33) to minimize fat gains

bradley
08-04-2003, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by LAM


go isocaloric (33/33/33) to minimize fat gains

What advantage would this ratio have as opposed to 40/30/30 or 35/40/25, in relation to fat gain? Assuming that all essential nutrients are being provided.

SoulOfKoRea
08-04-2003, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by dirty-c
This thread provoked a question in me that I have always wondered by never knew the answer to. I know that in order to gain muscle, you must be consuming more calories than you take in. However, exactly HOW MUCH above maintenance does one need to be? 100, 250, 500 calories?


well, one pound is equal to 3500 Calories. To gain 1 lb. per week, you would need 3500 Calories/7 days = 500 Calorie surplus a day.

bradley
08-04-2003, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by SoulOfKoRea
well, one pound is equal to 3500 Calories. To gain 1 lb. per week, you would need 3500 Calories/7 days = 500 Calorie surplus a day.

You would have to take into account other factors as well, such as increased metabolism, glycogen storage, etc. The numbers just would not work out that cleanly.

Think about an all out cheat day where an individual consumes 3,500 calories over maintenance. That would correspond to an increase in weight, but not exactly 1lb.

John0101
08-04-2003, 07:03 PM
After looking at people's journal's they seem to eat foods high in protein and carbs and some fat. I'm just going to try to eat clean without excessive amounts of fat. I also may try to do some cardio while i bulk, but I dunno kinda of seems counterproductive.

How can I alter my hormones so my body can be in a more anabolic state? are their some suppls. that can help with this? any of it legal?

bradley
08-05-2003, 02:38 AM
Originally posted by John0101
How can I alter my hormones so my body can be in a more anabolic state?

There have been some studies that show saturated fat corresponds can be related to testosterone levels.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=6538617&dopt=Abstract
"Our results indicate that in men a decrease in dietary fat content and an increase in the degree of unsaturation of fatty acids reduces the serum concentrations of androstenedione, testosterone and free testosterone. "

The excerpt from the article below describes what the author believes to be the best approach in order to maximize test levels in the body, although you should also take into consideration that this may not be the healthiest of diets.

http://www.thinkmuscle.com/articles/incledon/diet02.htm
"So, what is the best type of diet to follow if your only concern is to increase T levels and make more of it available to the body for the purpose of improving lean body mass and/or performance? It would seem that CHO intake must exceed PRO intake by at least 40% to keep the bioactive fraction of T high. Fat intake should be at least 30%, saturated fat needs to be higher than PUFA, and fiber intake needs to be low. A sample diet would have roughly the following calorie breakdown: 55% CHO, 15% PRO and 30% fat. "

I tend to think the best approach would be to make sure that you are eating enough protein and EFAs and not really worry about trying to increase hormone levels through diet alone.



are their some suppls. that can help with this? any of it legal?

There are plenty of products such as 1-test, 4-AD, etc., which are legal in th U.S. At least at this point in time.

Scott S
08-05-2003, 11:25 AM
That ThinkMuscle diet is an interesting one, if a very unhealthy-sounding one. Do you think that the low protein in it would hamper the anabolic effects of the diet? Also, they mention later in the article the idea of switching between their diet during bulking and then switching back to a healthier diet at other times. WHat do you think of that?

bradley
08-05-2003, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by Scott S
That ThinkMuscle diet is an interesting one, if a very unhealthy-sounding one. Do you think that the low protein in it would hamper the anabolic effects of the diet?

For any diet aimed at increasing LBM you have to make sure that you are taking in adequate amounts of protein to support muscle hypertrophy. With that being said, even if your test levels were increased, but you were not taking in adequate amounts of protein then there would really be no point in attempting to maximize testosterone production.

Although you also have to keep in mind that most bodybuilders take in more protein than the body requires, and I have not seen anything that would suggest 1g per lb. of bw. would not be a sufficient amount to support muscle hypertrophy. What I am saying is that you would probably be able to get close to the recommended amount of protein while keeping the ratios within what the article recommended, but again this would depend on total calorie intake.



Also, they mention later in the article the idea of switching between their diet during bulking and then switching back to a healthier diet at other times. WHat do you think of that?

Well it would definitely be easier to follow the guidelines set forth by the article if you were to be following a higher calorie diet.

Although, I doubt that you will see a significant difference between the approach outlined in the article above and a more conventional approach to dieting. The high saturated fat intake and low fiber that is recommended by the article is enough for me to shy away from ever trying such a diet.

LAM
08-05-2003, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by bradley


What advantage would this ratio have as opposed to 40/30/30 or 35/40/25, in relation to fat gain? Assuming that all essential nutrients are being provided.

all of those macros are comparable.