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harryhoudini66
08-06-2003, 01:58 PM
Hello everyone,

I am currently taking in 1800-2100 calories per day. My calories breakdown consists of 40/40/20. I am thinking of changing my diet to a CKD but realize that it may be a dramatic change. I have been lowering my Carbohydrates for the last week or so and hope to make the transitions smoothly. I have a list of foods that I can eat and it looks like having a keto diet can get more expensive then a balanced diet. For those of you that have tried CKD what do you think? I want to loose about 12-15 pounds in two months and hope to retain the muscle mass I have. I understand that this diet is great for that purpose. I have read the articles on these boards and main webpage along with interviews with Lyle and also bought the book. What are you impressions on the subject?

The main reason why I am switching my diet is because my wife has gotten inspired by my recent accomplishments and hopes to reach her own. However, she wants to go with a keto diet and it would be hard to have different foods at home because of two different diets.

harryhoudini66
08-08-2003, 06:33 PM
wow guys not one single reply. I need some love yo!

Holto
08-08-2003, 10:32 PM
:D

bradley
08-09-2003, 04:51 AM
Originally posted by harryhoudini66
I am currently taking in 1800-2100 calories per day. My calories breakdown consists of 40/40/20. I am thinking of changing my diet to a CKD but realize that it may be a dramatic change. I have been lowering my Carbohydrates for the last week or so and hope to make the transitions smoothly. I have a list of foods that I can eat and it looks like having a keto diet can get more expensive then a balanced diet. For those of you that have tried CKD what do you think? I want to loose about 12-15 pounds in two months and hope to retain the muscle mass I have. I understand that this diet is great for that purpose. I have read the articles on these boards and main webpage along with interviews with Lyle and also bought the book. What are you impressions on the subject?

I would stick with the balanced diet because I really do not see many benefits associated with the keto diets. The body is technically in a catabolic state when you are in ketosis so you are pretty much eliminating any chance of building muscle, which would not be the case if you were following a more balanced diet.

The CKD does include refeeds/carb ups which can be beneficial when dieting, and also the strict guidlelines/food choices associated with keto diets can be helpful to people who have trouble sticking with a balanced diet.

Don't get me wrong the keto diets will work, but any diet will work as long as you are in a calorie deficit and supplying your body with the appropriate amounts of eseential nutrients. It really comes down to what works the best for you.:)

The article written by Severed Ties brings up some good points as well. I would recommend taking a look if you have not done so already. Best of luck.

http://www.wannabebig.com/article.php?articleid=67

harryhoudini66
08-09-2003, 11:19 AM
Thanks Bradley. I am just looking in to using and burning some of this stored energy. I have plenty of it. Anyway, I am thinking of doing this for a month or two. The max will definitely be two months. After that, I am going back to my balanced diet.

I have tried so many diets, but never really tried a keto one. I wonder since I have not if my results will be good.

Also, there are foods that are low in carbs and minimal fat. Since this involves eating lots of fats, I am thinking about supplementing the fats with EFAs. What do you think about that? Should I make EFAs the majority of my fat intakes during this diet?

Holto
08-09-2003, 11:37 AM
WOW that was a good read

not that we need ST around the supp and diet forums (Bradley has this on lock) but it would be interesting to read some more from him outside of the Anabolic forum

question for that wise old skull:

when your body is in keto does a lb of fat still yield ~ 3500 cals ?

I thought that was the reason keto worked so fast allthough drastic was that fat needs the presence of carbs to be totally burnt and when in keto a lb of fat it more like 2000 cals or something

I hope I'm wrong though as I am a firm believer in a balanced diet

1 more question Bradley:

when you eat nothing but fat and protein it must be converted to glucose and then can that glucose not make it into glycogen ?

bradley
08-09-2003, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by harryhoudini66
Also, there are foods that are low in carbs and minimal fat. Since this involves eating lots of fats, I am thinking about supplementing the fats with EFAs. What do you think about that? Should I make EFAs the majority of my fat intakes during this diet?


Supplementing with large doses of EFAs could have negative effect (bleeding time, cholesterol issues, vitamin defeciencies, etc.), and I would recommend taking in a modest amount of omega-3 fatty acids (~3g EPA/DHA) along with a good ratio of omega-6 to omega 3 fatty acids(3-1:1).

You can make up the rest of your fat calories using something like olive oil, which has many beneficial health effects, and olive oil will not upset the ratio of omega-6 to omega-3 fats.

While what you described above would work, I tend to think it would make your daily diet lack any sort of variety. Although it would be healthier than say eating hot dogs and pork rinds.:)

bradley
08-09-2003, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by Holto
when you eat nothing but fat and protein it must be converted to glucose and then can that glucose not make it into glycogen ?

Excess amounts of protein will be converted to glucose which could be used to refill muscle glygogen, but you would have to be taking in large amounts of protein to be getting a signficant amount of glucose to refill muscle glycogen.

Another thing that comes to mind is that once you are in ketosis the bodies glucose requirements are decreased because of the availability of ketones and free fatty acids, and there is no need to convert protein to glucose unless you are consuming excessive amounts of protein.

There is more to it that what I stated above. ~57% of the amino acids that reach the liver are broken down there (further broken down into a keto-acid and nitrogen), and they are used in different ways depending on whether the liver is in a fed or unfed state.:D

bradley
08-09-2003, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by Holto
when your body is in keto does a lb of fat still yield ~ 3500 cals ?

I thought that was the reason keto worked so fast allthough drastic was that fat needs the presence of carbs to be totally burnt and when in keto a lb of fat it more like 2000 cals or something


You are correct in that carbs must be present to completely breakdown fat into water and carbon dioxide, and if no carbs are present there is no fuel for the Kreb's Cycle which leads to an excess of acetyl-CoA. When acetyl-CoA levels get too high the acetyl-CoA is then converted into ketones.

My point being is that even though the fat is not completely oxidized into water and carbon dioxide, the ketones are still a source of energy. The law of thermodynamics would come into play, at least that is my line of thinking. No matter how you break it down a pound of fat is still 3,500 calories.

Although you would lose a small amount of calories due to the acetone that is excreted through your breath and urine.

harryhoudini66
08-09-2003, 10:22 PM
Man, this thing is more expensive. I just came back from the store and spent about $200 in groceries. I guess it is not that bad considering that it is two weeks worth for two people. I am definitely not doing this for more then two months. It will take a toll financially also.

My wife started her diet three days ago and lost 4 pounds. I am sure most of the weight loss was water though.

Holto
08-10-2003, 10:56 AM
thanks Bradley

harryhoudini66:

just my opinion but after reading the article by ST I think you would be missing out on some serious gains by going keto at this point

you are still just getting back into it

if you were squatting 2-300lbs then it might be more appropriate

harryhoudini66
08-10-2003, 11:51 AM
Yeah dude but I have alot of body fat. I am way too fat and think this will help me out. Besides it is only going to be for two months or maybe just one if I get too bored with it.

harryhoudini66
08-11-2003, 11:30 PM
I had a terrible workout today. I also realized that I am not as alert as usual. I was so tired after I was done too. I guess I need those carbs bad. They also help me feel full. I keep getting hungry with protein only. On the upside, though I lost 7 pounds since starting.

bradley
08-12-2003, 02:33 AM
Originally posted by harryhoudini66
I had a terrible workout today. I also realized that I am not as alert as usual. I was so tired after I was done too. I guess I need those carbs bad. They also help me feel full. I keep getting hungry with protein only. On the upside, though I lost 7 pounds since starting.

The first week or so will be the worst as you make the "transition" into ketosis.

What does your diet currently look like? What are your plans as far as carb loads go, and how will your training be structured around your carb intake?

If you are using lean protein sources and supplementing with oils to get your fat then this could be one reason for your hunger, but I am sure this will get better as the diet progresses, seeing as how "most" people experience a reduction in appetite when following a ketogenic diet.

holly1221
08-12-2003, 01:46 PM
i'm so confused.... according to my ketosis strips, I am indeed in moderate ketosis; however, since starting the diet ... I haven't dropped a pound. What am I doing wrong? I am so frustrated. In the passed three months, I have gained 25 pounds and now I am desperately trying to use ketosis (or anything) to get rid of it as soon as possible!!

P.S. My diet is about 50/50 carb to fat and no more than 8 carbs a day. It has been 7 days since starting. I am drinking plenty of water too. Please help!! I am also confused on how many calories to take in, as Atkins says eat as many calories as you like as long as carb free. Any recommendation too on what are the best proteins and fats to be eating on this diet.

AllUp
08-12-2003, 02:07 PM
Holly if you wanna drop weight you should drop cal intake by 500cals below recommended for your height/weight. Also get protein(Whey is absorbed best/fastest) and Essential Fatty Acid's, B-Vitamins, Include some cardio and stay hydrated. The pounds should shed off like crazy.Also I should note that the first week and a half may make you dizzy or mentally fatigued, this seems to go away. With me there was a point where in my diet I lost 7lbs in a week. About 1.5lbs was waterweight that i got back 2 or 3 days later. :o

Goodluck

-AllUp

AllUp
08-12-2003, 02:10 PM
Harry try one or the other. Theyre both sorta counter-productive in your current situation.
If you cut cals you wont build mass, If you increase cals you wont get thin. You should prolly try to get thin, Tone a little to get rid of the loose skin, then bulk and see how you look, Just my HO. Id ask someone with more experience hehe. :D

bradley
08-12-2003, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by holly1221
i'm so confused.... according to my ketosis strips, I am indeed in moderate ketosis; however, since starting the diet ... I haven't dropped a pound. What am I doing wrong? I am so frustrated. In the passed three months, I have gained 25 pounds and now I am desperately trying to use ketosis (or anything) to get rid of it as soon as possible!!

If you are not eating below your maintenance level then you will not lose weight, regardless if you are following a ketogenic diet or a balanced diet.



P.S. My diet is about 50/50 carb to fat and no more than 8 carbs a day. It has been 7 days since starting. I am drinking plenty of water too. Please help!! I am also confused on how many calories to take in, as Atkins says eat as many calories as you like as long as carb free. Any recommendation too on what are the best proteins and fats to be eating on this diet.

Like I stated above you still need to be below your maintenance calories to lose weight, so it sounds as though you need to decrease your current calorie intake. The body does not require insulin to store bf, thanks to ASP.

I would say take in ~1g of protein per lb. of bw and fill in the rest of your cals with fat. Ideally you would want to consume lean protein sources and supplement with healthy fats such as fish oil, olive oil, flaxseed oil, etc., but this would get quite boring.

Make sure that you are consuming adequate amounts of essential fatty acids and then get the rest of your fat from dietary sources. Foods such as sausage, bacon, hot dogs, steaks, pork chops, etc. are popular on keto diets, but keep an eye out for hidden carbs. Also combining things like tuna and mayo make a decent meal when on a keto diet.

Welcome to WBB:)

harryhoudini66
08-12-2003, 04:38 PM
I am taking in about 1700-2000 calories each day. In total I am eating about 200 grams of protein and 125-150 grams of fat. About 15 percent of my fats are from Fish Oil caps and peanut butter. I eat from 10-25 grams of carbs. My foods include eggs, bacon, sausage, hamburger, pork chops, Jell-O, chicken, ground beef, protein shakes, cottage cheese, t-bone steaks, double quarter pounder with cheese.


Still following wbb1 routine.

bradley
08-12-2003, 04:50 PM
How much do you weigh harry? If you have the protein to spare, you could try bumping the fat intake up a bit, but I would not do this at the expense of reducing protein below 1g per lb. of bw.

greekboy80
08-12-2003, 05:27 PM
bradley, im on the CKD as well, and im having great results. i was wondering, since its all based on cals in and cals out, why would it matter if you are in ketosis or not? ive been on this diet for a while, and i like it...but, i was just thinking the other day and it popped in my head. why would it matter if i had under 20 carbs per day or 60, if i was in a cal deficit?

harryhoudini66
08-12-2003, 08:11 PM
I am down to 209 pounds. I lost about 30 pounds with balanced diet and 7 with keto.



Reefed: I am thinking pastas, breads and potatoes. What do you think?

I read in Lyle's book that some peeps have used a keto diet without causing calorie deficit and still loose weight.

As far as carbs intake, it is also my understanding that you begin to use the stored energy (fat) to function instead of carbs (what you run on normally).

bradley
08-13-2003, 02:31 AM
Originally posted by greekboy80
bradley, im on the CKD as well, and im having great results. i was wondering, since its all based on cals in and cals out, why would it matter if you are in ketosis or not? ive been on this diet for a while, and i like it...but, i was just thinking the other day and it popped in my head. why would it matter if i had under 20 carbs per day or 60, if i was in a cal deficit?

It does not matter.:)

Some people find that a keto diet blunts their appetite, which is one reason that you might want to remain in ketosis, but as far as weight loss is concerned it is not going to matter. Although you should keep in mind that if you start incorporating carbs back into your diet you might see some weight gain due to water/glycogen.

Ketosis is just a state that the body enters due to the lack of glucose in the body, and it really has nothing to do with weight loss.

bradley
08-13-2003, 02:42 AM
Originally posted by harryhoudini66
Reefed: I am thinking pastas, breads and potatoes. What do you think?

The above foods sound fine to me, but I would might have a little fun with my carb up day and throw in some kid's cereals or something similar.:D



I read in Lyle's book that some peeps have used a keto diet without causing calorie deficit and still loose weight.


You might lose some water/glycogen weight, but you are still going to have to eat below maintenance cals to lose weight. I have seen Lyle post on various sites that you have to be below maintenance to lose weight and that in the grand scheme of things ketosis is relatively unimportant.



As far as carbs intake, it is also my understanding that you begin to use the stored energy (fat) to function instead of carbs (what you run on normally).

While you are correct in that the body switches to a "fat burning" state while in ketosis, but you also have to take into account the extra energy that you are taking in from dietary fat. The body will be burning dietary fat and stored bodyfat (if under maintenance), but the idea that the body uses more stored bf while in ketosis is not really accurate.

You can think about it like this. Whenever dieting there are two essential components of a diet, protein and EFAs. Once these two essential components are taken care of you can make up the rest of the cals with either carbs, fat, protein, or a combination of all three.

Holto
08-13-2003, 10:24 AM
Originally posted by bradley
Ketosis is just a state that the body enters due to the lack of glucose in the body, and it really has nothing to do with weight loss.

thanks for clearing that up

I will offically never try a keto based diet

I really thought there would be some benefit due to how radical the diet is even as much as I believe in cals in VS cals out

makes total sense

I wonder if the reason why people lose so much weight is simply loss of muscle (or at least ZERO gain)

AllUp
08-13-2003, 10:53 AM
Hmm, but you really shouldn't be losing any muscle as long as you load on the weekends and keep hydrated. Ketosis looks almost more or less like a way to see if your burning off fat via means of ketosis, You can check whit KetoStix. Its worked OK for me so far and once I get to my desired weight I figure I'll kill the cardio/Toning and then bulk, then cut. :)

-AllUp

-AllUp

bradley
08-13-2003, 11:22 AM
Originally posted by Holto
I wonder if the reason why people lose so much weight is simply loss of muscle (or at least ZERO gain)

The main advantages that I can see to a keto diet are psychological, and I say this for a couple of reasons.

1) Most people feel "inspired" to continue following the diet when they see that initial 5-10lb. weight loss that occurs at the beginning of the diet.

2) It gives people a specific foods to eat and sets others "off limits," which gives people less freedom and ends up causing them to follow a more structured diet.

3) Some people also experience a loss in appetite while in ketosis, which we all know that appetite control has a positive impact on any weight loss attempts.

The ketogenic diet has been referred to as protein sparing which could very well be true for a couple of reasons (decreased glucose requirements, affect on thyroid, etc.), but as compared to a more balanced approach it will probably all balance out in the end. The ketogenic diet is far from anabolic so the chances of you gaining muscle are slim, although you could possible see some muslce growth during the carb up phase of a CKD.

In the end it comes down to personal preference, and what works best for your current goals.

bradley
08-13-2003, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by AllUp
Hmm, but you really shouldn't be losing any muscle as long as you load on the weekends and keep hydrated.

While I agree that keto diets do seem to be more protein sparing than a balanced diet at the same calorie level, there is no solid proof of this. I think the main thing is the individual performing the diet, and what I mean by this is that one person may experience more muscle loss on a keto diet as opposed to an isocaloric diet and vice-versa.



Ketosis looks almost more or less like a way to see if your burning off fat via means of ketosis

Ketosis is not the cause of fat loss, but it is the result of incomplete free fatty acid oxidation in the liver.

harryhoudini66
08-13-2003, 05:20 PM
Well guys I will post again on this same thread in about a month to give you all an update on my achievements if any.

harryhoudini66
10-03-2003, 10:48 PM
Okay guys, here is an update. I am now down to 194.5. I have lost about 22 pounds on Keto Diet.

My wife has gone down from 192 to 165 in the same time frame.



I am going to hang in there until the end of October and then go back to balanced diet. I figure I will weigh about 175-180 by then.

TiGeR AK
10-04-2003, 03:18 PM
when i did a keto diet... i DEFINITELY was not eating below-maintenance calories. i was way over.

i was eating eggs, bacon, steak for like every meal.

and yet i lost a lot of fat a lot quicker than on a reduced calorie diet.

if diets really are about getting calories below maintenance... how do you explain my results on the keto diet? and it's definitely not just water weight, because i dieted for over 2 months on keto.

bradley
10-04-2003, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by TiGeR AK
when i did a keto diet... i DEFINITELY was not eating below-maintenance calories. i was way over.

i was eating eggs, bacon, steak for like every meal.

and yet i lost a lot of fat a lot quicker than on a reduced calorie diet.

if diets really are about getting calories below maintenance... how do you explain my results on the keto diet? and it's definitely not just water weight, because i dieted for over 2 months on keto.

You would be the first person that I have heard of that altered the law of thermodynamics. If you take in energy it has to go somewhere, so I find it hard to imagine that you were eating well over maintenance calories and still losing fat. It could be possible that your overall body composition was changing. i.e. gaining muscle and losing fat, or you just were not eating as much as you thought you were.

Spartacus
10-04-2003, 05:20 PM
what about refeeds on the keo you did? did you refeed on your reduced calorie diet?

harryhoudini66
10-04-2003, 07:50 PM
Brad, Lyle's book has indicated that some subjects have lost weight even wihtout a calorie deficit.

harryhoudini66
10-04-2003, 07:52 PM
My refeeds were big. I went way over maintenance. Sometimes I about 300 grams of carbs.

Dedicated
10-04-2003, 07:57 PM
Didn't read the whole thread, but just want to add that I think keto diets are terrible. I was doing a low carb type diet before and even though I had energy my strength sucked. Now that I am eating everything I have a lot more strength. The comparison is just unreal, keto is really bad imo. There are better ways to burn fat.

Dedicated
10-04-2003, 08:00 PM
Originally posted by bradley
The main advantages that I can see to a keto diet are psychological, and I say this for a couple of reasons.

1) Most people feel "inspired" to continue following the diet when they see that initial 5-10lb. weight loss that occurs at the beginning of the diet.

Yup exactly sounds like me. However after the initial weight loss and when I noticed my lifts were not improving I think it was really bad on me psychologically.

harryhoudini66
10-04-2003, 09:09 PM
I cannot say my lifts decreased. They have however not gone up. I don't plan on doing keto much longer. I love my 40/40/20

bradley
10-05-2003, 04:39 AM
Originally posted by harryhoudini66
Brad, Lyle's book has indicated that some subjects have lost weight even wihtout a calorie deficit.

I have read the book, but he indicated that he was eating significantly over maintenance.

I could be mistaken, but I do not think the subjects that Lyle was referring to in his book were not eating above maintenance calories, but were eating maintenance calories. This very well could be possible due to a greater TEF associated with higher protien intake, but to think this would contribute significantly to weight loss would not be accurate.

Ketosis is not what causes weight loss, and it is an adaptation associated with carb intake.

Big John
10-05-2003, 12:35 PM
Hi H/66, I have used this "Atkins" diet with great results.I lost 39 IIbs in 7 Months, Lost next to NO Muscle size at all. Lay off BREAD,PASTA,RICE, ALL Crap Foods ie: cakes sweets,chocolate,ice-creams, all treats are OUT. Limit Carbs to 25g per day for the first 2 weeks, drink gallons of water, eat whole-some foods, Chicken,Steak,all Fish, Corned Beef, eggs, Full Fat Cheese, cottage cheese, Hi-Bran for early mornings with semi/milk 40g hibran/125g milk. 2000cals- first 2 weeks- 2250- next 4 weeks- 2500- 4 weeks, supplement with Multi vit/mineral, Calcium 1000mg/ day, Glucosiamine 1500mg, oils to use Olive oil and omega 3, forget all the other SH*t you don't need it.Weigh every morning (same Time), First 2 weeks No Power, after that it will get better, Train HARD, YOU WILL LOSE. Big John

harryhoudini66
10-05-2003, 04:13 PM
Thank John, but I do not think you read the whole thread. I started the diet about two months ago and was just providing an update. I have done everything you mentioned except mine was a CKD and involved carb loading. My measurements have remained the same so I do not think I have lost much muscle. I have dropped however 22 pounds since starting.

I will bump this post again at the end of October to give the total tally of lost weight and status.

AJ_11
10-05-2003, 08:12 PM
Originally posted by Dedicated

Yup exactly sounds like me. However after the initial weight loss and when I noticed my lifts were not improving I think it was really bad on me psychologically.


Good for you.:thumbup:


Really I did KETO a few weeks back and strength actually went up. I got PB on the Deadlift and Squat. And actually My meals Before was something like a steak with bacon. Maybe It was the tabasski sauce that gave me a kick in te ole' arse.

harryhoudini66
10-05-2003, 08:15 PM
I love eating pork chops before my workout. The chili is what gets me going. Oh man they are so good.

johnny123
10-06-2003, 10:14 AM
ive known several (4 family members and 3 friend) and i have done the same back in 2000). that all have done atkins. they all had calorie surpluses. the fat is more dense calorie wise, so i think thats where the surplus came from, and all lost weight. i think with this diet, being in a surplus of calories, you can lose weight. now i dont think they were eating double the calories or anything, but they were above. there really is no calorie counting in this diet. i was in a surplus of 300-600+ on certain days, when i counted for the heck of it. i dont know how (or why you would) upward you could go before the results would be negative however.

bradley
10-06-2003, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by johnny123
the fat is more dense calorie wise, so i think thats where the surplus came from, and all lost weight. i think with this diet, being in a surplus of calories, you can lose weight. now i dont think they were eating double the calories or anything, but they were above. there really is no calorie counting in this diet. i was in a surplus of 300-600+ on certain days, when i counted for the heck of it. i dont know how (or why you would) upward you could go before the results would be negative however.

I think the key phrase here is "on certain days." A couple of days above maintenance, followed by a couple of days below maintenance could still cause fat loss.

If you have something documented that shows following a keto diet while above maintenance calories will lead to weight loss, I would be very interested in reading it.

As stated above, the energy has to go somewhere. There have been plenty of people who have not lost weight on keto diets, due to the fact that they ate excessive amounts of calories.

johnny123
10-06-2003, 11:27 AM
well lets say 2 identical people have 2000 as being the # of cals that keeps them the same weight. now...

one does a 40/30/30 diet of 2000 cals

one does atkins @ 2000 cals

would this mean the person in keto wouldnt lose weight?

what would be the point of it, if you had to be below maintenance on atkins to lose weight? there would be no market for atkins books or lifestyle, etc. my friend has a few of the new diet revolution books, ill see if i can cite the book, if not on the net.

AJ_11
10-06-2003, 12:17 PM
I think that there are too many factors that some into play here. WE have to look at their diets before. Most people that do Atkins are overweight, generally eating fast food, refined suger and high fat meals wth high GI(pizza)

So on average for the week the cals would be alot higher, even though some days they remain low.

One they make the transition they cut all refined, and processed food out of their diet even taking in some EFA, probably for the first time, and viola. Controlled Blood suger levels, and as fat without the carbs keeps you satisfied longer, then they will be in a calorie defcient.

Alot of people bad mouth the atkins/keto dieting. But for most americian it teaches then on how to eat in my opinion. Veggies, are eaten quality protein is eaten and they get enough fat without the suger in their diets. But then again there are experts that will pull arguments for both sides of the fence.

bradley
10-06-2003, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by johnny123
well lets say 2 identical people have 2000 as being the # of cals that keeps them the same weight. now...

one does a 40/30/30 diet of 2000 cals

one does atkins @ 2000 cals

would this mean the person in keto wouldnt lose weight?

There would be no significant difference, once you accounted for the water weight that was lost when following the Atkins diet (keto).



what would be the point of it, if you had to be below maintenance on atkins to lose weight? there would be no market for atkins books or lifestyle, etc. my friend has a few of the new diet revolution books, ill see if i can cite the book, if not on the net.

As AJ11 stated, the whole diet is a "gimmick" so to speak. You are eating below maintenance, even though it might not be intentional. Keto diets in general decrease appetite, and also food choices are much more limited, and both of these factors would contribute to the dieter eating below maintenance calories.

johnny123
10-06-2003, 01:47 PM
so the whole concept of ketones making a difference in weight loss is a myth then? if the only thing that makes the weight loss is eating below calories.

im not saying this is the be all end all of diets, and i think it has negative aspects of it, and it does decrease appetite. but with something this popular (as far as diets and fads go). that every single person who has lost weight, and maintains the lost weight eats below maintainence. with foods like steak, sour cream eggs, bacon, oils, etc. its an interesting conversation, ill research some info to support it.

bradley
10-06-2003, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by johnny123
so the whole concept of ketones making a difference in weight loss is a myth then? if the only thing that makes the weight loss is eating below calories.

Ketosis is not the cause of weight loss, but rather the result of eliminating carbs from your diet.

johnny123
10-06-2003, 02:40 PM
http://atkins.com/Archive/2001/12/18-934442.html

Let's look at the results of the study that supports these conclusions. Researchers at New York's Schneider Children's Hospital studied 40 obese patients, ages 12 to 18, who were split into two groups. The low-fat group lost half as much weight on 1,100 calories per day as did the controlled carbohydrate group, which was allowed unlimited calories and, on average, ate 1,830 calories per day.


i know that link and this excerpt from it isnt enough scientific reasearch to support what im saying, as im no expert on ketogenic diets, aside from doing it a few years ago. i do know that there is no real calorie restriction, although at some point excess cals on a ketogenic im sure can have a negative and adverse effect.

bradley
10-06-2003, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by johnny123
http://atkins.com/Archive/2001/12/18-934442.html

Let's look at the results of the study that supports these conclusions. Researchers at New York's Schneider Children's Hospital studied 40 obese patients, ages 12 to 18, who were split into two groups. The low-fat group lost half as much weight on 1,100 calories per day as did the controlled carbohydrate group, which was allowed unlimited calories and, on average, ate 1,830 calories per day.

First we have no idea what the maintenance calorie intake was for the participants of the study, so for all we know both groups were still below maintenance.

The paragraph also does not state if water weight was taken into account, which would explain the reason that the low carb group lost significantly more weight. Notice they do not discern between weight and bodyfat.

This was taken from the above link and goes right along with what I am saying.

"Instead, they may end up eating fewer calories because they are generally less hungry and no longer obsessed with food. "

raniali
10-06-2003, 04:31 PM
on my first try with keto diets i did a ckd and did not count calories at all - but just changed my food choices and ate protein and fats to my enjoyment. after 4 weeks, i felt i looked better (and received numerous compliments to such), my strength was high and i was excited to step on the scale. my excitement quickly faded as i actually gained almost 8 pounds. i finally calculated my average daily calories and realized i had been eating close to 500-1000 cals over maintenance. no wonder i gained although i wonder if it was water weight or not. when i refined my ckd, counting cals and percentages, i would fluctuate 8-10 pounds after refeeds. but when i started restricting cals, i basically lost all appetite and could function normally on 1k cals a day. i had to start forcing myself to eat. i followed a ckd for a few months and lost a considerable amount of weight (for me) - but i hated my workouts on this.
i think there is a happy medium somewhere with keto diets.

one thing i have been thinking about is the efficacy of keto diets between normal metabolisms and people who claim some level of insulin sensitivity. i would think the latter group would be more significantly affected by the removal of carbs from the diet and would perhaps find better results with keto than a balanced diet. i don' t have anything to back that up, but it is just a theory.

AJ_11
10-06-2003, 04:34 PM
Actually I have read some people eating above maintence and still getting cut, as well. But these people almost never count cals. So you never know. I think that it is quite possible.

I am not doing a KETO based diet but my fat intake is alot higher than my carb intake. I only take carbs around training and even then I want to get rid of them(b4 training at the very least) becasue they make me feel worse, trigger a homormonal response that I dislike in my body. So know I usually take in some oatmeal.

From everywhere I read, even Lyle Macdonald the King of Keto and cyclical diets has mention that ketones don't cause a greater fat loss, then standard dieting. JUst that they are easier to follow and people people once making the metabloic shift feel better ( I know I do)

harryhoudini66
10-23-2003, 01:30 PM
Update, I started losing weight after I had stalled a bit. I am now down to 185. I am now only 10 pounds above my goal weight of 175.


The only adjustment I made was to my workout. I am now doing high rep/sets low weight exercises during the week and heavy low rep/sets exercises on Saturday. I think that by doing high 15-20 low weight sets I am depleting glycogen deposits quicker.

I have also substantially reduced my cardio and do only about 10 minutes before and sometimes 15 after my weight session.

harryhoudini66
11-23-2003, 02:46 PM
I know I have been on the keto longer then I expected, but I am almost at my goal. I am now down to 179. Jut wanted to give an update for those people considering a CKD.