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TiGeR AK
08-18-2003, 04:16 AM
i was just thinking... don't all diets basically boil down to calories in minus calories out?

if such is the case...

how can you explain a keto diet?

will you lose weight if you eat beef 6 times a day just because it doesn't contain carbs? Those 6 meals of beef will undoubtedly be more than maintenance, calorie-wise. So why would you lose weight? or would you lose weight?

GhettoSmurf
08-18-2003, 07:31 AM
you wouldnt lose weight.

eating carbs doesnt mean you'll gain weight. not eating carb doesnt mean you wont gain weight. the beef contains calories, and if you eat more calories then you burn, you'll gain weight.

Holto
08-18-2003, 09:45 AM
exactly

rgkfit
08-18-2003, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by TiGeR AK
i was just thinking... don't all diets basically boil down to calories in minus calories out?

if such is the case...

how can you explain a keto diet?

will you lose weight if you eat beef 6 times a day just because it doesn't contain carbs? Those 6 meals of beef will undoubtedly be more than maintenance, calorie-wise. So why would you lose weight? or would you lose weight?

A keto diet "teaches" your body to use fat for fuel. Whether a CKD or TKD, or even Atkins, this is the case. However, hard for a bodybuilding diet. If you would go this route, a TKD would probably be the best of the 3. However, a more sound, rounded calorie smart diet would be optimal for our purposes.

rgkfit
08-18-2003, 11:08 AM
Originally posted by rgkfit


A keto diet "teaches" your body to use fat for fuel. Whether a CKD or TKD, or even Atkins, this is the case. However, hard for a bodybuilding diet. If you would go this route, a TKD would probably be the best of the 3. However, a more sound, rounded calorie smart diet would be optimal for our purposes.

To add to that, fats are only 10% likely to be converted to glycogen, and proteins 58% I believe. As we all know, carbs are 100%. This is the reasoning behind the high fat,moderate protein approach to these diets.

bradley
08-18-2003, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by rgkfit


To add to that, fats are only 10% likely to be converted to glycogen, and proteins 58% I believe. As we all know, carbs are 100%. This is the reasoning behind the high fat,moderate protein approach to these diets.

Where did you find these numbers, just out of curiosity?;)

Carbs can be converted to fat or used as energy, and they are not all necessarily stored as glycogen. You also have to take into account that not all carbs can be digested by the body (fiber), hence the reason I am curious as to where these numbers came from.

greekboy80
08-18-2003, 04:37 PM
and, sometimes 6 meals of beef might not be over maintenance. it depends how much beef you eat. but if your under you caloric needs for the day then you will loose weight.

rgkfit
08-18-2003, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by bradley


Where did you find these numbers, just out of curiosity?;)

Carbs can be converted to fat or used as energy, and they are not all necessarily stored as glycogen. You also have to take into account that not all carbs can be digested by the body (fiber), hence the reason I am curious as to where these numbers came from.

I believe one source close to home for you would be the wannabebig roundtable discussion. There are others, but thought this one might be the easiest for you, it is "home". http://www.wannabebig.com/article.php?articleid=88

bradley
08-18-2003, 06:03 PM
Originally posted by rgkfit


I believe one source close to home for you would be the wannabebig roundtable discussion. There are others, but thought this one might be the easiest for you, it is "home". http://www.wannabebig.com/article.php?articleid=88

Well the article states the following:
"Fats are the most ketogenic item since only 10% can be converted to glucose. Proteins convert to glucose with 58% efficiency. Carbohydrates convert to blood sugar with 100% efficiency."

There would be a difference between saying 100% of carbs are converted to glucose, and 100% of carbs are converted to glycogen, even though glycogen is a stored form of glucose.

If you were to eat an excess of carbs then you could cause some of the carbs to be stored as fat and not glycogen. I also think more accurate description would be that 100% of all digestable carbs can be converted to glucose, because not all carbs can be digested (i.e. fiber).

Dr X
08-18-2003, 06:13 PM
Some people have been known to lose scale weight when on a Keto diet even though they are eating at or a little above maintenance. The primary source of the weight loss is water loss. The problem is that if you go off the keto diet after a few weeks you will gain that weight back.

The diet is used to drop body fat weight while adding mass weight for a weight gain or constant weight.

like any "diet" there are good and bad sides to it.

TiGeR AK
08-18-2003, 06:30 PM
so what makes a keto diet any more effective than a reduced calorie diet?

in essence... both diets require that you go below maintenance calorie-wise in order to lose weight...

so why would you restrict yourself of carbs?


say you try out both a keto diet and a reduced calorie diet with carbs included.

both diets contain the same amount of calories, and are both below maintenance.

would you lose any more weight on the keto diet over the reduced-calorie diet? or vice versa?

TiGeR AK
08-18-2003, 06:31 PM
also... would the keto diet be more protein-sparing than the reduced calorie diet... thereby allowing you to retain more muscle?

Spartacus
08-18-2003, 07:13 PM
does anyone have links to studies comparing how effective various diets are for muscle gain? ie comparing gains between people on keto, high carb, etc.

bradley
08-19-2003, 02:26 AM
Originally posted by TiGeR AK
also... would the keto diet be more protein-sparing than the reduced calorie diet... thereby allowing you to retain more muscle?

Well the keto diets may be protein sparing in a couple of ways. The first of which Callahan already pointed out is that the bodies glucose requirements are decreased so therefore less protein will be converted to glucose.

The kidneys can also help in preventing nitrogen losses due to the adaptations that are seen during ketosis. Since ketones are acidic the kidneys must increase the amount of ammonia, which will be used as a base to make sure that the urine does not become to acidic. The increase in ammonia production will cause more nitrogen to be used, because nitrogen is needed to make the ammonia.

After a while the kidneys will adapt so as to not have to make the extra ammonia, and this is accomplished by increased absortption of ketones in the kidneys.

A ketogenic diet will also cause a drop in T3 levels which will affect protein synthesis.

The main question is how much of a difference will this make in relation to a more balanced diet, and I would also think that different people will experiece different effects from a keto diet. What I mean is that some may find it more protein spariing than others.

bradley
08-19-2003, 02:36 AM
Originally posted by TiGeR AK
so what makes a keto diet any more effective than a reduced calorie diet?

Nothing really, although you might see some protein sparing effects associated with a low carb diet. Some people also experience a drop in appetite when following a keto diet.



in essence... both diets require that you go below maintenance calorie-wise in order to lose weight...


Yes, there is nothing magical about ketosis.



so why would you restrict yourself of carbs?


Some people find that it does offer some psychological benefits, such as specific foods that you can and can not eat. The large initial drop in weight loss is also a boost when you are wanting to see quick results, even though this initial weight loss is just water/glycogen.

Although when you restrict carbs your chances of adding any LBM while dieting decrease, because of the effect of low carb diets on hormone levels (insulin, glucagon, IGG-1, etc.). This is the main reason that you do not see people using low carb diets when trying to increase LBM.

I understand that adding LBM while dieting usually does not occur, but I at least like having the chance to add a little LBM while dieting.:)

This article was written by Severed Ties, and it brings up some good points about low carb diets.

http://www.wannabebig.com/article.php?articleid=67

bradley
08-19-2003, 02:47 AM
Originally posted by Spartacus
does anyone have links to studies comparing how effective various diets are for muscle gain? ie comparing gains between people on keto, high carb, etc.

Effect of weight loss plans on body composition and diet duration.

Landers P, Wolfe MM, Glore S, Guild R, Phillips L.

Department of Nutritional Sciences, University of Oklahoma Health Sciences Center, PO Box 26901-CHB 469, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma City, OK 73190, USA.

Are low carbohydrate high protein (LCHP) diets more effective in promoting loss of weight and body fat and can individuals stay on an Atkins-like diet more easily than on a conventional weight loss diet? A pre-test/post-test randomized group design composed of three cohorts was utilized to test 1) a LCHP ketogenic diet; 2) the Zone diet; and 3) a conventional hypocaloric diabetic exchange diet that supplied < 10%, 40%, and 50% of calories from carbohydrate, respectively. Body composition was measured before and after the intervention treatment period with dual energy X-ray absorptiometry. Mean weight loss was 5.1 kg for those who completed the 12-week program. There were no significant differences in total weight, fat, or lean body mass loss when compared by diet group. Attrition was substantial for all plans at 43%, 60%, and 36% for LCHP, Zone and conventional diets, respectively.
-------------

Similar weight loss with low- or high-carbohydrate diets.

Golay A, Allaz AF, Morel Y, de Tonnac N, Tankova S, Reaven G.

Department of Medicine, Geneva University Hospital, Switzerland.

The goal of this study was to evaluate the effect of diets that were equally low in energy but widely different in relative amounts of fat and carbohydrate on body weight during a 6-wk period of hospitalization. Consequently, 43 adult, obese persons were randomly assigned to receive diets containing 4.2 MJ/d (1000 kcal/d) composed of either 32% protein, 15% carbohydrate, and 53% fat, or 29% protein, 45% carbohydrate, and 26% fat. There was no significant difference in the amount of weight loss in response to diets containing either 15% (8.9 +/- 0.6 kg) or 45% (7.5 +/- 0.5 kg) carbohydrate. Furthermore, significant decreases in total body fat and waist-to-hip circumference were seen in both groups, and the magnitude of the changes did not vary as a function of diet composition. Fasting plasma glucose, insulin, cholesterol, and triacylglycerol concentrations decreased significantly in patients eating low-energy diets that contained 15% carbohydrate, but neither plasma insulin nor triacylglycerol concentrations fell significantly in response to the higher-carbohydrate diet. The results of this study showed that it was energy intake, not nutrient composition, that determined weight loss in response to low-energy diets over a short time period.


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bradley
08-19-2003, 02:50 AM
**I found this abstract as well that showed initial weight loss to be greater when following the low carb diet, but this could possibly be attributed to the initial loss in water/glycogen.

------------------

A randomized trial of a low-carbohydrate diet for obesity.

Foster GD, Wyatt HR, Hill JO, McGuckin BG, Brill C, Mohammed BS, Szapary PO, Rader DJ, Edman JS, Klein S.

University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine, Philadelphia, PA 19104-3309, USA. fosterg@mail.med.upenn.edu

BACKGROUND: Despite the popularity of the low-carbohydrate, high-protein, high-fat (Atkins) diet, no randomized, controlled trials have evaluated its efficacy. METHODS: We conducted a one-year, multicenter, controlled trial involving 63 obese men and women who were randomly assigned to either a low-carbohydrate, high-protein, high-fat diet or a low-calorie, high-carbohydrate, low-fat (conventional) diet. Professional contact was minimal to replicate the approach used by most dieters. RESULTS: Subjects on the low-carbohydrate diet had lost more weight than subjects on the conventional diet at 3 months (mean [+/-SD], -6.8+/-5.0 vs. -2.7+/-3.7 percent of body weight; P=0.001) and 6 months (-7.0+/-6.5 vs. -3.2+/-5.6 percent of body weight, P=0.02), but the difference at 12 months was not significant (-4.4+/-6.7 vs. -2.5+/-6.3 percent of body weight, P=0.26). After three months, no significant differences were found between the groups in total or low-density lipoprotein cholesterol concentrations. The increase in high-density lipoprotein cholesterol concentrations and the decrease in triglyceride concentrations were greater among subjects on the low-carbohydrate diet than among those on the conventional diet throughout most of the study. Both diets significantly decreased diastolic blood pressure and the insulin response to an oral glucose load. CONCLUSIONS: The low-carbohydrate diet produced a greater weight loss (absolute difference, approximately 4 percent) than did the conventional diet for the first six months, but the differences were not significant at one year. The low-carbohydrate diet was associated with a greater improvement in some risk factors for coronary heart disease. Adherence was poor and attrition was high in both groups. Longer and larger studies are required to determine the long-term safety and efficacy of low-carbohydrate, high-protein, high-fat diets. Copyright 2003 Massachusetts Medical Society

TiGeR AK
08-19-2003, 05:39 AM
Originally posted by bradley

I understand that adding LBM while dieting usually does not occur, but I at least like having the chance to add a little LBM while dieting.:)


and this "chance to add a little LBM" is more feasible (although significant gains should not be expected) on a reduced calorie diet as compared to a keto diet... is that what you are saying?

so keto diet is a little more protein sparing but it is difficult to produce LBM...

while reduced cal diet holds a slightly better chance of producing LBM, but a little less protein sparing...



so in the end... do they pretty much balance each other out?

bradley
08-19-2003, 06:06 AM
Originally posted by TiGeR AK
and this "chance to add a little LBM" is more feasible (although significant gains should not be expected) on a reduced calorie diet as compared to a keto diet... is that what you are saying?


Yes



so keto diet is a little more protein sparing but it is difficult to produce LBM...


The protein sparing effect of a ketogenic diet is debatable, but in general, yes.



while reduced cal diet holds a slightly better chance of producing LBM, but a little less protein sparing...


Again this would be debatable, and creating a small calorie deficit would probably be the best route as far as preserving LBM.



so in the end... do they pretty much balance each other out?

That would depend on factors such as bf%, training experience, etc. An individual with a higher bf% who just started training would be better off following a balanced diet because the probability of adding LBM while losing bf would be much greater, as opposed to a well-trained individual trying to go from 12% bf to 8%.

I have yet to see any definite proof that would convince me that a ketogenic diet holds any significant metabolic benefit over a more balanced approach.

Although I do understand the psychological benefits that one could associate with a ketogenic diet.

TiGeR AK
08-19-2003, 06:44 AM
wow.. thanks for the awesome responses as usual.

rgkfit
08-19-2003, 08:06 AM
Originally posted by bradley


Well the article states the following:
"Fats are the most ketogenic item since only 10% can be converted to glucose. Proteins convert to glucose with 58% efficiency. Carbohydrates convert to blood sugar with 100% efficiency."

There would be a difference between saying 100% of carbs are converted to glucose, and 100% of carbs are converted to glycogen, even though glycogen is a stored form of glucose.

If you were to eat an excess of carbs then you could cause some of the carbs to be stored as fat and not glycogen. I also think more accurate description would be that 100% of all digestable carbs can be converted to glucose, because not all carbs can be digested (i.e. fiber).

OK, point well taken....

Dr X
08-19-2003, 01:39 PM
I do not remember the studies I was reading some time back but here is another observation one should also look at.

The larger than normal initial drop in weight from the Keto diet also equates to a more rapid gain when going back to a normal diet. What this told me again was the large amount of weight loss from "water" and that you put it right back on if stopping the diet.

rgkfit
08-19-2003, 03:58 PM
Agreed totally.