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Meat_Head
09-08-2003, 10:57 PM
What do you all think of this.....

Mon Wed Fri

1. warm-up 1. warm-up 1. warm-up
2. stretch 2. stretch 2. stretch
3. snatch 3. jerk from rack 3. snatch
4. clean & jerk 4. power snatch 4. clean & jerk
5. front squat 5. power clean 5. back squat
6. snatch pull 6. step-ups 6. clean pull
7. overhead squat 7. stiff leg dead lifts 7. press behind neck
8. abdominal exercise 8. hyperextension 8. Abdominal exercise
9. jumps 9. jumps 9. jumps
10. stretch 10. stretch 10. stretch

All olympic type lifts are 5x3, all others 5x5 with the exception of abs, hyperextensions, jumps, and stepups. Last set or 2 are heavy and hard on most lifts. Your opinions?

I was thinking about trying a week of this, then continueing if I liked it. Do you all think I can get much hypertrophy out of this routine, or just strength gains? What if I added in a day or 2 for bodybuilding type movements?

IceRgrrl
09-09-2003, 05:41 AM
Oly lifts are not well suited to hypertrophy, but they are great for working on power and coordination. They are mainly full body movements that incorporate many muscle groups AND make use of controlled momentum. Also, they are very fatiguing to the CNS, and most set of Oly lifts are done with no more than 5 reps with long rest periods in between for full recovery between sets. Small muscles and the CNS will fatigue first, at which point technique and form fall apart, meaning that to continue will probably result in poor technique and possibly hurting yourself at worst/getting into bad habits at best. How much experience do you have with these lifts? They're very technical and having a good trainer/coach is essential if you're just getting started.

For hypertrophy, you'd probably want higher reps per set and less rest in between sets with a combination of controlled compound exercises (like the bench/squat/deadlift triad) to work the large muscle groups and isolation exercises to further target the smaller muscles. Hypertrophy lifting aims to eliminate momentum from the lift, unlike the Oly lifts.

What are your goals? I think you'd have to stick with a program for more than a week to see if it was doing something for you...just curious :)

ElPietro
09-09-2003, 06:58 AM
Almost none of this is advantageous for hypertrophy or strength. So if those are your two goals, this is probably the furthest from what you'd want to be doing.

unshift
09-09-2003, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by ElPietro
Almost none of this is advantageous for hypertrophy or strength. So if those are your two goals, this is probably the furthest from what you'd want to be doing.

not advantageous to strength? i disagree.

ElPietro
09-09-2003, 12:39 PM
In his first 6 points, only the back squat is a viable strength training option. Oly lifts are about form and explosiveness, not strength. You do not gain much strength from doing limited reps of exercises that stress your muscles for fractions of seconds.

But of course you could elaborate on why this is a great strength training routine feel free to elaborate.

PowerManDL
09-09-2003, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by ElPietro
You do not gain much strength from doing limited reps of exercises that stress your muscles for fractions of seconds.

Errrrr.......

ElPietro
09-09-2003, 01:30 PM
So are you saying Oly lifts are an effective means of strength training Matt? You know what I meant, so if you disagree explain.

unshift
09-09-2003, 01:36 PM
i would definitely think so, but have absolutely no scientific data to back it up. but who cares, you should believe everything i say anyway :cool:

from my experience, anyway, i think olympic lifts translate well into real-world strength. maybe the effect is the same as speed benching or speed squatting, i don't know, but i would think that speed and explosiveness translate directly into real-world strength (it doesn't take you 5 seconds to pick up your bookbag off the floor, for example, though it might take you that long to complete a deadlift)

as for his particular routine, i agree with you, i don't think it's all that great. but i was talking about olympic lifting in general (or as a supplement to other strength training)

PowerManDL
09-09-2003, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by ElPietro
So are you saying Oly lifts are an effective means of strength training Matt? You know what I meant, so if you disagree explain.

Well, I was actually talking about the particular statement I quoted ;)

But just on the side, yeah, I do. But that all depends on your contextual definition of "strength," and your given goals at the time.

ElPietro
09-09-2003, 01:45 PM
There is a difference between power and strength. It is all interrelated, but cleans and such are not really strengthening the muscle, so much as training you mechanically better at that movement. I'm not saying it won't make you stronger, but on the whole you are not focusing any any specific area as much as you would a squat or deadlift, or bench. Or leg press, or military press or whatever. Also, oly lifts will fatigue a great number of muscle groups at once, but probably not as targetted as a conventional split. So for strength in general, I would say no, they are not a good option, they are a good option if you want to compete in oly lifts, or just some GPP or explosiveness on lfits that they represent a correlated ROM to.

I'm sure you can equate anything at a given time to strength. I could say resting an extra day will help me with my strength training. Does that mean rest is strength training? So I could just have a 7 day split of rest and i'd get strong? No. So sure many things can aid in "strenght" some things aren't directly impacting it though. And yes, there are many terms for the concept of strength. I would define strength as lifting the most amount of weight via muscular contraction, not superior leverage, or better form. I can get better at benching by getting a better arch. Am I stronger now? Or did I just adjust angles to incorporate stronger muscles, and eliminate weaker ones, while shortening the ROM?

PowerManDL
09-09-2003, 01:50 PM
That's some nice rambling Pete, but there are still multiple kinds of strength.

The type you listed is absolute and limit/maximal strength (absolute being the maximum force capacity of the muscle, limit being the maximum voluntary capacity).

Speed-strength, which broadly encompasses power, explosive strength, and other high-RFD activities, is a discrete motor quality, and a separate form of strength.

As the axiom goes, a strong lifter isn't always powerful, but a powerful lifter is always strong. Seeing as maximal strength is at the root of all other forms of strength, and Olympic lifters display speed-strength quite proficiently, they're developing it *somehow*

I do realize they train with squats, but cleans, clean pulls, jerks, etc, can't be discounted for their strengthening effects on the body.

ElPietro
09-09-2003, 01:54 PM
Here is a simple question then:

If a new trainee asked for you to design him a program, and his goals were to increase strength and muscle mass, would the program you give him consist of 50-60% olympic lifts, and no direct training to the pectorals or lats?

PowerManDL
09-09-2003, 01:55 PM
My program design skills weren't the issue :)

ElPietro
09-09-2003, 01:56 PM
Answer the question b!tch. :)

PowerManDL
09-09-2003, 01:58 PM
For a wet beginner, I wouldn't assign that much to it.

For someone that's got a basic foundation, 6 months or more, and wanted to learn the lifts, sure. Though I doubt I'd personally ever drop direct pec/lat work, I could easily see orienting a program around Oly work for a beginner concerned with strength and a bit of size.

ElPietro
09-09-2003, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by IceRgrrl
Oly lifts are not well suited to hypertrophy, but they are great for working on power and coordination. They are mainly full body movements that incorporate many muscle groups AND make use of controlled momentum. Also, they are very fatiguing to the CNS, and most set of Oly lifts are done with no more than 5 reps with long rest periods in between for full recovery between sets. Small muscles and the CNS will fatigue first, at which point technique and form fall apart, meaning that to continue will probably result in poor technique and possibly hurting yourself at worst/getting into bad habits at best. How much experience do you have with these lifts? They're very technical and having a good trainer/coach is essential if you're just getting started.


I agree with Icer's statement above, and think you are just arguing points as it's easy to take single statements and debate them on minute detail. I personally don't think in a million years you would recommend anything remotely resembling the program posted above given the goals listed. There are far better ways to achieve the goal. As Icer said and I agree, "small muscles and the CNS will fatigue first," so in strength training I generally consider it a good idea to have the largest muscle groups as the primary mover. That definitely would be the case with hypertrophy.

Lifting more weight doesn't always mean getting stronger, and with oly lifts that is probably more often the case than not.

PowerManDL
09-09-2003, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by ElPietro


I agree with Icer's statement above, and think you are just arguing points as it's easy to take single statements and debate them on minute detail.

Seeing as I said that at the beginning, yes. :)


I personally don't think in a million years you would recommend anything remotely resembling the program posted above given the goals listed. There are far better ways to achieve the goal.

Of course. And as should have been obvious, I wasn't referring to that program with any of my statements. What he has is a pure OLer's program, not one designed to improve mass.

All I said was that I wouldn't discount the Oly movements.


As Icer said and I agree, "small muscles and the CNS will fatigue first," so in strength training I generally consider it a good idea to have the largest muscle groups as the primary mover.

Small muscles, sure. CNS, not really.

But that's a big physiology presentation to show why, and I know how much you hate when I cut and paste :D


Lifting more weight doesn't always mean getting stronger, and with oly lifts that is probably more often the case than not.

For a beginner, sure. For somebody that's been doing them a few years, don't be so sure.

ElPietro
09-09-2003, 02:22 PM
Remember, I am not saying that you will not gain strength and some size, for that then we could all just do 3 sets of 10 of everything and go home and eat a steak. But if we are trying to judge what is optimal, as a static program, than the above is definitely quite a ways off.

Sure I have goals of strength and power, and will probably take advantage of oly lifts in a periodized manner, but that isn't the type of approach meat head is taking, so I of course am going to try to steer him away from it.

WillKuenzel
09-09-2003, 02:35 PM
I thought he wanted this routine for the oly lifts. He asks about strength and mass but I took it as that would be an added bonus. Why steer him away from it if he's interested in the oly lifts?

ElPietro
09-09-2003, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by xMeat_Headx
Do you all think I can get much hypertrophy out of this routine, or just strength gains? What if I added in a day or 2 for bodybuilding type movements?

I was basing my comments on this.

If he simply wants to do an oly program then that's fine.

WillKuenzel
09-09-2003, 02:42 PM
I kind of took that as he wanted to get some size while working on the oly lifts mainly and was wondering if adding an extra day here or there would hurt as far as that goes. Eh, who knows. Only he can tell us.


I like oly lifts. :)

IceRgrrl
09-09-2003, 02:55 PM
I swear, you guys can take anything and turn it into a semantics/hair splitting pissing match :p

ElPietro
09-09-2003, 02:56 PM
I disagree. :p

Meat_Head
09-09-2003, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by IceRgrrl
I swear, you guys can take anything and turn it into a semantics/hair splitting pissing match :p

I AGREE!

The routine is obviously an olympic lifting routine. I'm almost offended by the fact that someone would think I would do it for hypertrophy. I asked a simple question at the end, could I expect to see any kind of hypertrophy from this routine?

I believe that even though its an olympic program with very little negatives and blah blah if I used progressive resistance and got my diet straight that it very well could produce a good amount of hypertrophy, obviously not as much as a bodybuilding directed program, but nonetheless....

Forgive my bluntness, but to say olympic lifts and hybrid olympic lifts don't build strength couldn't be more false. There are plenty of explosive guys. I'd hate to use an example like this, but hell there are guys who are 5'9 who can dunk. But how many of them can clean and jerk 300lbs+? On the other hand, there are plenty of superheavyweights under 6' who can dunk with ease. That's just one example of course.

Also, do you really think that a man who can do cleans or snatches with 300lbs+ would have any problem at all deadlifting 500+?

Eh, sorry to go off on a rant, but I know that when I've incorporated oly lifts into my regular routines I've had some damn good strength gains overall, for example, by deadlift or squat going up when I didn't train them for over a month....

And another thing, when I post a routine don't think I'm immediately going to switch over and do it completely forgetting about previous training. I'm trying out new things every once in a while, but mostly sticking to raw instinctive type training.

Blitzforce
09-09-2003, 05:40 PM
I think there is way too much in that routine to do in one session :)

http://www.qwa.org/programs/content.asp

chris mason
09-09-2003, 06:51 PM
Actually, I had read Olympic lifting was not very fatiguing to the CNS, hence the reason Olympic lifters can train more frequently than bodybuilders and powerlifters (in general).


Anyway, MeatHead, you are getting Monstar syndrome:D . You need to stick with something for some period of time greater than a week or two.

ElPietro
09-09-2003, 09:34 PM
Chris if you use a smiley when referring to Monstar, you should always double up. :D:D

Just thought I'd point that out.

:thumbup::thumbup:

PowerManDL
09-09-2003, 09:43 PM
:cool::cool:

Blitzforce
09-10-2003, 02:42 AM
Only if you drop the Bar after each rep.

And you still need to build up work capacity over a few years.

Muscles are one thing, Tendons are a different matter :)

noraa
09-10-2003, 04:24 AM
I have met many people who have done nothing much but OL based programs, and most are extremely well developed.
Maybe not a BBing physique but not exactly babies.

IceRgrrl
09-10-2003, 05:18 AM
Originally posted by Blitzforce
Only if you drop the Bar after each rep.

And you still need to build up work capacity over a few years.

Muscles are one thing, Tendons are a different matter :)

:withstupi

Yup...

Meat_Head
09-10-2003, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by chris mason
Actually, I had read Olympic lifting was not very fatiguing to the CNS, hence the reason Olympic lifters can train more frequently than bodybuilders and powerlifters (in general).


Anyway, MeatHead, you are getting Monstar syndrome:D . You need to stick with something for some period of time greater than a week or two.

Actually I've been progressing in the same basic movements for a while now. Almost no matter what routine I'm doing, I try to include the same lifts at least somewhat so I can keep getting bigger and stronger even if I change it up a little bit.

I wasn't planning on trying the olympic routine for a while anyway, just wanted people's opinions.