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Mic Soloist
09-16-2003, 09:00 AM
When I began training in Jan. 03 I was a skinny dude

5'11
151
31.5 waist
39 chest


Now I am

5'11
164
33.5 Waist
41.5-42 Chest


My body has made some crazy changes in this 8 months. The problem is I feel like I've gained to much on my waist. My stomach will stick out further than my chest after I've eaten and even with a caliper saying I was 10% BF I'm not really close to having a defined midsection with abs showing. I got some cuts on my lower stomach(the v shape) but I still feel like I am gaining to much waist for the amout I've gained on the rest of my body.

I am bigger now and I look it but I don't look a lot more cut than I was before. I'm still trying to gain weight but I don't want to gain anymore on my waist. I want my waist at 31-32 inches max.

How can I continue to bulk and not gain so much on my waist?


-mic-

TheGimp
09-16-2003, 10:09 AM
It's not really possible. That's just where your body stores its fat. Keep bulking until you can't live with your waist any longer and then cut :)

Saint Patrick
09-16-2003, 11:53 AM
damn dude, 2 inches on the waist is a LOT for only gaining 13 lbs.


you been drinking beer or something? :alcoholic:

I suggest counting calories, if you're not already.

harryhoudini66
09-16-2003, 01:21 PM
Your body fat is low enough, why don't you try Lipoderm-Y? I heard and read it is very good and works best on people with lower body fat. Or that it is much more noticeable on someone with a 10% or lower.

Mic Soloist
09-16-2003, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by harryhoudini66
Your body fat is low enough, why don't you try Lipoderm-Y? I heard and read it is very good and works best on people with lower body fat. Or that it is much more noticeable on someone with a 10% or lower.


what is that???

bradley
09-16-2003, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by harryhoudini66
Your body fat is low enough, why don't you try Lipoderm-Y? I heard and read it is very good and works best on people with lower body fat. Or that it is much more noticeable on someone with a 10% or lower.

From what I understand products such as Lipoderm-Y are best used when in a calorie deficit.

bradley
09-16-2003, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by Mic Soloist



what is that???

It is a topical fat loss aid that contains yohimbine HCL, and is used in spot reduction of stubborn bf.

Dedicated
09-16-2003, 02:46 PM
I think my waist is the same as yours cause I was wearing a size 36 belt and had to buy a size 34 belt cause my pants were falling off. So we are prolly close in waste size. I lost 10.5 pounds to do this, so it's very possible that your 13 pounds caused an increase in waste size. Btw I weigh 162.5 pounds and am 5"10 - 5"11.

That cream sounds interesting, anyone here actually use it and see results?

bradley
09-16-2003, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by Dedicated
That cream sounds interesting, anyone here actually use it and see results?

You should be able to get some opinions on the product by running a search, as some members have documented the use of these types of products in their journal(s).

harryhoudini66
09-16-2003, 04:33 PM
Yeah, also read it works well with an ECA. Many people have posted on this board about this product.

Dedicated
09-16-2003, 07:26 PM
Awesome thank you I will do that.

EdgeCrusher
09-16-2003, 08:51 PM
whoa whoa whoa, i thought spot reduction was bull****...

!?!?!?!?!?!?!

bradley
09-17-2003, 01:59 AM
Originally posted by EdgeCrusher
whoa whoa whoa, i thought spot reduction was bull****...

!?!?!?!?!?!?!

It is if you are referring to spot reducing through diet and/or exercise, but there are supplements that can spot reduce fat.:)

BobbyRS
09-17-2003, 08:53 AM
Yohimbine HCl, and products that include it, have been known to help a person that is already low in bf% lose the "stubborn" fat on their body. Since Yohimbine HCI is an alpha-antagonist, and "stubborn" fat tends to have higher concentrations of alpha receptors than beta receptors, it can be taken to help lose fat in those "stubborn" areas.

A good place to buy it is here:
http://www.1fast400.com/product_info.php?products_id=107

They also have the LipoDerm-Y here:
http://www.1fast400.com/product_info.php?products_id=105

As for the comment on combining Yohimbine HCl and a EC/ECA stack, read this quote from Lyle McDonald:


In the body, there are two general types of adrenoreceptors (receptors
which interact with the adrenal hormones adrenaline and
noradrenaline). They are beta-receptors (of which there are 3, maybe
4 types) and alpha receptors (of which there are two).

Beta receptors can generally be thought of as accelerators, like the
one in your car. When they are stimulated (or agonized), they speed
up certain processes including heart rate, blood pressure, calorie
burning, and fat burning.

alpha receptors can genrally be likened to braks, like the ones in
your car. When agonized they slow things down, like heart rate, blood
pressure and fat burning.

Ephedrine is a beta agonist, meaning it stimulates fat and calorie
burning (and also raises heart rate and blood pressure).

Yohimbe is an alpha-antagonist (meaning it blocks the effects of alpha
receptors). By blocking a blocker, it has the effect of also
increasing fat breakdown and heart rate and blood pressure.

Important note: although ephedrine and yohimbe have similar end
results, they work through two totally different mechanisms.

So what's the deal with ECA and yohimbe.

Many bodybuilers use (abuse?) ECA to improve their dieting. ECA
increases metabolic rate, increases fat burning and may spare muscle
loss during dieting.

Yohimbe can be used to increase fat loss as well. Yohimbe seems to be
more effective for 'stubborn' fat deposits (like women's hips and
thighs, and maybe men's abdominal fat) since those 'stubborn' deposits
tend to have higher concentrations of alpha receptors than beta
receptors (making it more logical to block te alpha receptors than to
stimulate teh alpha receptors).

Some have combined ECA with yohimbe in the hopes that you will get
maximal fat mobilization (remember: E and Y work through different
mechanism so their effects should be additive). The problem is that
combining the two tends to lead to freaky heart rate and blood
pressure responses in some people. In general, Y probably shouldn't
be combined with anyting more potent than caffeine, the potential for
side effects is simply to high.

One last thing: yohimbe should not be taken with meals or any fat
mobilizing effects are lost. In fact, taking yohimbe with carbs will
give you a larger insulin response than you would have gotten
otherwise.

this led to the idea of using yohimbe first thing in the morning
before cardio by itself (or with some caffeine, which also increases
fat breakdown). By using it at this time, insulin is low, and you're
not eating, and you should get maximal fat burning effects. If you
tried to use yohimbe later in the day, you'd have to work it in
between meals to avoid the insulin response. Also, during cardio
adrenalie and noradrenaline levels are up, stimulating beta receptors.
I've always kind of wondered if ECA would really have a major effect
during cardio. That is, will ECA + the normal adrenaline release from
cardio have a greater effect than just the cardio by itself. So by
using yohime before morning cardio, you're getting the alpha
antagonist effect of yohimbe plus the beta agonist effects of
aerobics.

By waiting a few hours before using the ECA stack, it is hoped that
most of the yohimbe has cleared the body, so that you don't get the
heart rate/BP responses from the combination of Y and ECA.

Taken from here:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=36349430.7467%40onr.com&rnum=5

bradley
09-17-2003, 09:16 AM
Originally posted by BobbyRS
Yohimbine HCl, and products that include it, have been known to help a person that is already low in bf% lose the "stubborn" fat on their body. Since Yohimbine HCI is an alpha-antagonist, and "stubborn" fat tends to have higher concentrations of alpha receptors than beta receptors, it can be taken to help lose fat in those "stubborn" areas.

A good place to buy it is here:
http://www.1fast400.com/product_info.php?products_id=107

They also have the LipoDerm-Y here:
http://www.1fast400.com/product_info.php?products_id=105

As for the comment on combining Yohimbine HCl and a EC/ECA stack, read this quote from Lyle McDonald:



Taken from here:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=36349430.7467%40onr.com&rnum=5

Lipoderm-Y is a topical product, so would the EC/ECA still be detrimental? I understand the problems when the two are combined through oral administration.

BobbyRS
09-17-2003, 10:10 AM
How ya been Bradley? :) It's been a while.

Administering Yohimbine HCl through a transdermal delivery method like LipoDerm-Y does cut down on the amount that reaches the heart and CNS. Therefore, it would also cut down on the side effects as well, but wouldn't get rid of them all together (depending on dosages I guess). This also avoids passing through the liver which can limit bioavailability and cause hepatotoxicity. When taken orally, you can reach adequate blood levels to increase distribution to adipose tissue to help aid fat burning, but doing so increases the amount that is distributed to the heart and CNS, therefore resulting in more predominate side effects.

If you ask me, it would most likely be up to the individual who is using it. Just like with taking orally, some people can handle taking it with Ephedra. But I guess how ephedra effects an individual would also come in to play. For many, it probably wouldn't be a good idea. Especially if that individual already has high blood pressure or a high heat rate, with taking Ephedra.

As with what Lyle said, Yohimbine HCl taken orally with Ephedra needs to be spaced apart throughout the day. I would also recommend taking Lipoderm-Y in the same manner just to be on the safe side. Especially if you're just starting to take it, while using Ephedra. Taking an EC stack with Yohimbine HCl (or LipoDerm-Y) is a good 1/2 punch for mobilizing and burning fat (that is spaced throughout the day). I don't think an individualís results would really improve if one was to take Yohimbine HCl and Ephedra closer together. Especially not enough to take a chance on the side effects that could develop.

bradley
09-17-2003, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by BobbyRS
How ya been Bradley? :) It's been a while.

Good to see you back.



Administering Yohimbine HCl through a transdermal delivery method like LipoDerm-Y does cut down on the amount that reaches the heart and CNS. Therefore, it would also cut down on the side effects as well, but wouldn't get rid of them all together (depending on dosages I guess). This also avoids passing through the liver which can limit bioavailability and cause hepatotoxicity.

This would mean less hepatotoxicity;)



When taken orally, you can reach adequate blood levels to increase distribution to adipose tissue to help aid fat burning, but doing so increases the amount that is distributed to the heart and CNS, therefore resulting in more predominate side effects.

If you ask me, it would most likely be up to the individual who is using it. Just like with taking orally, some people can handle taking it with Ephedra. But I guess how ephedra effects an individual would also come in to play. For many, it probably wouldn't be a good idea. Especially if that individual already has high blood pressure or a high heat rate, with taking Ephedra.

As with what Lyle said, Yohimbine HCl taken orally with Ephedra needs to be spaced apart throughout the day. I would also recommend taking Lipoderm-Y in the same manner just to be on the safe side. Especially if you're just starting to take it, while using Ephedra. Taking an EC stack with Yohimbine HCl (or LipoDerm-Y) is a good 1/2 punch for mobilizing and burning fat (that is spaced throughout the day). I don't think an individualís results would really improve if one was to take Yohimbine HCl and Ephedra closer together. Especially not enough to take a chance on the side effects that could develop.

Yohimbine's effects will be localized to the A-2 receptors that the gel is applied to, and the stimulant effects will be minimized.

While I agree that care should be taken, I do not see any reason as to why one should not use EC stacks in conjunction with products such as Lipoderm-Y.

BobbyRS
09-17-2003, 02:09 PM
Yohimbine's effects will be localized to the A-2 receptors that the gel is applied to, and the stimulant effects will be minimized.

It is still taken up into the bloodstream and delivered in the same way. Just not as much passing through the heart and CNS because of the more direct tissue penetration.

Yes, there is basically more then one effect of Yohimbine. Stimulatory effects (increased heart rate, increased blood pressure, etc.) and A-2 receptor blocking are two different effects. With LipoDerm-Y being applied transdermally, minimizes Yohimbineís stimulatory effects allowing the bypassing of systemic distribution and primarily targeting of the adipose tissue. The blocking of the A2 receptors in the area of application then becomes greater.


While I agree that care should be taken, I do not see any reason as to why one should not use EC stacks in conjunction with products such as Lipoderm-Y.

I pretty much agree. I was just recommending that someone who has never taken it before, take it slow while also taking Ephedra. To me, they do go hand-in-hand and think fat loss would be greater using the two, as long as the individual has no serious sides. (hence taking them far apart from each other at first).

bradley
09-17-2003, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by BobbyRS
It is still taken up into the bloodstream and delivered in the same way. Just not as much passing through the heart and CNS because of the more direct tissue penetration.

My point being that oral and transdermal delivery are two totally different methods of delivery, and making blanket statements for both methods of delivery is not completely accurate.



I pretty much agree. I was just recommending that someone who has never taken it before, take it slow while also taking Ephedra. To me, they do go hand-in-hand and think fat loss would be greater using the two, as long as the individual has no serious sides. (hence taking them far apart from each other at first).

The Lipoderm-Y is time released, so spacing out dosages is irrelevant.

BobbyRS
09-17-2003, 05:31 PM
My point being that oral and transdermal delivery are two totally different methods of delivery, and making blanket statements for both methods of delivery is not completely accurate.

Yes and no.... Transdermal delivery involves a drug bypassing the skin barrier in order to be taken up into the bloodstream and distributed systemically. This basically does the same thing as oral delivery, but it is inherently time released. Just like with orals, drugs that penetrate the skin barrier and traverse the epidermis and dermis are rapidly taken up by the dermal microvasculature, where they are delivered systemically. http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/par6.htm

Key factor here is if nothing is done to bypass the dermal microvasculature, the drug enters systemic circulation before it ever reaches the adipose tissue. So, yes the statement is correct as long as the transdermal doesn't bypass the dermal microvasculature like most trasndermals, but in LipoDerm-Y's case, since it is the only one that does (I Believe), it would be incorrect. So, I guess I should have clarified more on my part.


The Lipoderm-Y is time released, so spacing out dosages is irrelevant.

Yes, that is correct, most recommendations (because some are sensitive to yohimbine) are to start out at 25-50mg and increase the dosage by 25-50mg until you can't take the sides. I believe it is also recommended to divide it into two dosages through out the day, but like you said, it isn't necessary. That of course is if the product is formulated correctly and the delivery is localized to the adipose tissue
.

bradley
09-18-2003, 02:21 AM
Originally posted by BobbyRS
Yes and no.... Transdermal delivery involves a drug bypassing the skin barrier in order to be taken up into the bloodstream and distributed systemically. This basically does the same thing as oral delivery, but it is inherently time released. Just like with orals, drugs that penetrate the skin barrier and traverse the epidermis and dermis are rapidly taken up by the dermal microvasculature, where they are delivered systemically. http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/par6.htm

Key factor here is if nothing is done to bypass the dermal microvasculature, the drug enters systemic circulation before it ever reaches the adipose tissue. So, yes the statement is correct as long as the transdermal doesn't bypass the dermal microvasculature like most trasndermals, but in LipoDerm-Y's case, since it is the only one that does (I Believe), it would be incorrect. So, I guess I should have clarified more on my part.

My whole point is that comparing the effects and side effects of oral yohimbine to Lipoderm-Y would not be relevant. My above statement was in reference to Lipoderm-Y and I should have specified that in my post. My apologies.:)

A more correct statement on my part would have been making blanket statements about topical products like Lipoderm-Y and oral administration of yohimbine would not be accurate.

I think the confusion is coming from the fact that topical and transdermal delivery refer to two different things. Transdermal refers to systamatic absorption where as topical applies to localized delivery.




Yes, that is correct, most recommendations (because some are sensitive to yohimbine) are to start out at 25-50mg and increase the dosage by 25-50mg until you can't take the sides. I believe it is also recommended to divide it into two dosages through out the day, but like you said, it isn't necessary. That of course is if the product is formulated correctly and the delivery is localized to the adipose tissue
.

I was referring to your statement that spacing your EC/ECA dosages apart from Lipoderm-Y application would be beneficial. Since Lipoderm-Y is time released this would be irrelevant.


Originally posted by BobbyRS
I was just recommending that someone who has never taken it before, take it slow while also taking Ephedra. To me, they do go hand-in-hand and think fat loss would be greater using the two, as long as the individual has no serious sides. (hence taking them far apart from each other at first).

BobbyRS
09-18-2003, 09:20 AM
I think the confusion is coming from the fact that topical and transdermal delivery refer to two different things. Transdermal refers to systamatic absorption where as topical applies to localized delivery.

Here is a good article on the subject of Topical and Transdermal delivery systems:
http://www.inetce.org/articles/pdf/146-000-01-008-H01.pdf


I was referring to your statement that spacing your EC/ECA dosages apart from Lipoderm-Y application would be beneficial.

Yes, beneficial depending on ones sensitivity to Yohimbine HCl and Ephedra and their related side effects, taken alone or together; ie. be cautious and start out slow if sensitivity is high.