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defcon
09-25-2003, 03:53 PM
Today in the gym, there was sumone there that i talk to that is bulking right now.. well im cutting and we were talkinga bout supps to take while cutting.. and i sumhow we managed to turn that convo into weird ideas kinda thing, well i said.. what would happen if you took a thermo while in a calorie surplus? no one could give us a real nice answer.. so her ei am.. posting :)

So lets say i take a themo genetic.. and am eating 1500 cals over maintanice, what would happen? would i just gain less weight then i would if i wasn't taking the thermo? or would the weight added be more muscle and less fat ( because some thermos have ingredients that burns more fat directly or sumthing? ) im guessing its the first statement i said.. but i would like some PROFESSIONAL, SMART PEOPLE advice ;) * looks @ bradely for answers *.

bradley
09-25-2003, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by defcon
Today in the gym, there was sumone there that i talk to that is bulking right now.. well im cutting and we were talkinga bout supps to take while cutting.. and i sumhow we managed to turn that convo into weird ideas kinda thing, well i said.. what would happen if you took a thermo while in a calorie surplus? no one could give us a real nice answer.. so her ei am.. posting :)

So lets say i take a themo genetic.. and am eating 1500 cals over maintanice, what would happen? would i just gain less weight then i would if i wasn't taking the thermo? or would the weight added be more muscle and less fat ( because some thermos have ingredients that burns more fat directly or sumthing? ) im guessing its the first statement i said.. but i would like some PROFESSIONAL, SMART PEOPLE advice ;)

The first thing that comes to mind is the large amount of caffeine that you would have in your system, which would not be beneficial for reasons mentioned in the thread below.

http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=36604&highlight=caffeine+AMPK

I believe Bryan Haycock has recommended using EC when bulking, due to the nutrient partitioning effects that it can have.

There are different opinions on the topic. If you are going to use an EC stack when bulking, then I would recommend just using it as a preworkout stimulant.

When using an EC during a bulking cycle you will burn more cals, but you will also decrease insulin sensitivity, which would not be ideal. Just stick to a clean diet, and adjust cals according to how much weight you are gaining each week.

bradley
09-25-2003, 06:05 PM
Effects of glucocorticoids and sympathomimetic agents on basal and insulin-stimulated glucose metabolism.

Paquot N, Schneiter P, Jequier E, Tappy L.

Institute of Physiology, Faculty of Medicine, Lausanne University, Switzerland.

The mechanisms responsible for glucocorticoid-induced insulin resistance remain unclear. Glucocorticoids show several interactions with the sympatho-adrenal system which may contribute to this decrease in insulin sensitivity: they enhance the synthesis and actions of catecholamines, but abolish insulin-induced activation of muscle sympathetic nerve activity. The present study was performed in order to investigate the effects of the interactions between glucocorticoids and the sympatho-adrenal system on insulin sensitivity. Basal and insulin-stimulated glucose metabolism was measured in healthy human subjects during four 2-h clamp studies as follows: control (C); after taking oral dexamethasone (2 mg daily) for 2 days (D); after taking oral ephedrine sulphate (40 mg daily) for 2 days (E); and after taking dexamethasone+ephedrine (D+E). Glucose uptake, production and oxidation were calculated from plasma 13C glucose and exhaled 13CO2 during constant tracer infusion of U-13C glucose. Basal glucose production, utilization and oxidation were similar in all four studies. During hyperinsulinaemia, glucose uptake was reduced by 51.5% with treatment D, by 25.9% with treatment E, and by 49.6% with D+E. Glucose oxidation was reduced by 54.0% with treatment D, by 24.0% with treatment E, and by 57.2% with D+E. Hepatic glucose production was completely suppressed in all four studies. It is concluded that both dexamethasone and ephedrine decrease insulin-mediated glucose uptake and oxidation. Co-administration of ephedrine does not suppress the glucocorticoid-induced alterations of glucose metabolism. This indicates that glucocorticoid-induced insulin resistance is not related to the inhibition of muscle sympathetic nerve activity. These results suggest instead that glucocorticoids and sympathomimetic agents may impair glucose metabolism by common actions.

JuniorMint6669
09-25-2003, 06:40 PM
Some people at avant recommend taking JUST ephedrine for partitioning effects, avoiding the caffeine for the reason bradley mentioned.

I do not understand this

It is concluded that both dexamethasone and ephedrine decrease insulin-mediated glucose uptake and oxidation. Co-administration of ephedrine does not suppress the glucocorticoid-induced alterations of glucose metabolism. This indicates that glucocorticoid-induced insulin resistance is not related to the inhibition of muscle sympathetic nerve activity. These results suggest instead that glucocorticoids and sympathomimetic agents may impair glucose metabolism by common actions

Translation please? :D

defcon
09-25-2003, 07:28 PM
yeah.. lets get this translated into normal scientific language :) and btw, i do not plan on bulking while taking a EC stack.. it just dun make sence for me :P im cutting right now anyway. but great info once again bradely :)

JuniorMint6669
09-25-2003, 08:50 PM
I think, if money is not too much of an issue, nutritional partitioning can be of great value. Although this is purely anectodal, the past 10 weeks I have gained ~10 pounds of LBM and lost ~4 pounds of fat using E/C and other supplements while bulking.

It may not sound like it makes sense, but it might actually make sense.

bradley
09-26-2003, 02:29 AM
Originally posted by JuniorMint6669
Some people at avant recommend taking JUST ephedrine for partitioning effects, avoiding the caffeine for the reason bradley mentioned.

I do not understand this


Translation please? :D

Dexamethasone is a synthetic glucocorticoid, and glucocorticoids are hormones such as cortisol, etc. The study above states that both ephedrine and dexamethasone decreased the amount of glucose used and the amount of glucose uptake.

Ephedrine is classified as a sympathomimetic.

Basically it boils down to cortisol and ephedrine increase insulin resistance the same way.

bradley
09-26-2003, 02:43 AM
Originally posted by JuniorMint6669
I think, if money is not too much of an issue, nutritional partitioning can be of great value. Although this is purely anectodal, the past 10 weeks I have gained ~10 pounds of LBM and lost ~4 pounds of fat using E/C and other supplements while bulking.

It may not sound like it makes sense, but it might actually make sense.

Nutrient partitioning is definitely desirable, but there are other ways to improve nutrient partitioning. Obviously exercise, but taking in adequate amounts of fish oil will also help.

Ephedrine is a nutrient partitioner in that it causes the fat cells to release FFA, which can then be used for energy by the body.

defcon
09-26-2003, 05:18 AM
hmmmmmmmmm, so are you saying that taking ephedine during a bulking phase will help the body to burn more fat instead of carbs for energy? there for reducing bf% while bulking possibly?

bradley
09-26-2003, 07:59 AM
Originally posted by defcon
hmmmmmmmmm, so are you saying that taking ephedine during a bulking phase will help the body to burn more fat instead of carbs for energy? there for reducing bf% while bulking possibly?

While ephedra would cause FFA to be released from fat cells, it also causes insulin resistance which would not be beneficial when trying to increase LBM.

Another thing that comes to mind is the fact that the receptors will down regulate after continuous use of E, which is where caffeine would come into play. Caffeine prevents the negative feedback associated with prolonged E use, due to it's effects on cAMP levels. Caffeine would not be beneficial while trying to increase LBM, for reasons previously stated.

JuniorMint6669
09-26-2003, 10:55 AM
So E increases glucose uptake but lowers insulin. Do these cancel each other out? Increase glucose = better for LBM? Decreased insulin = bad for LBM?

bradley
09-26-2003, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by JuniorMint6669
So E increases glucose uptake but lowers insulin.

I have not seen anything that states that ephedrine increases glucose disposal, although I am not saying that it will not. I just have not ran across anything that states that it does.

Either way taking E around your workout would not really be necessary because of the impact that exercise will have on insulin sensitivity. By taking in carbs around your training you will be able to take advantage of this insulin sensitivity, due to the insulin that will be released in response to the rise in blood sugar caused by the carbohydrates, i.e. increased nutrient partioning in response to exercise.

If you are looking for a glucose disposal agent, something like ALA or R-ALA would be better suited for the purpose. Although it is debatable as to whether ALA is suited for individuals that are more endomorphic.

Insulin resistance in not a lack of insulin, but the lack or response from the cells in the presence of insulin. Basically, there is plenty of insulin, but the cells are not responding to the insulin.



Do these cancel each other out? Increase glucose = better for LBM? Decreased insulin = bad for LBM?

Decreased insulin sensitivity would not be ideal, because then it would take more insulin to get the carbs into the cells.