PDA

View Full Version : Can too much protein make you fat?



DylanWaneIV
10-02-2003, 02:45 PM
I drink a myoplex for my breakfast in the morning that has 52g of protein and i put 2 tablespoons of natty PB in it for some fat, is that too much protein for me to take in all at once without any of being converted to fat?

Reinvented
10-02-2003, 03:23 PM
its your bottom line calorie count that will determine whether or not you put on weight for the most part.

i dont' seee anything wrong with eating that for breakfast

Saint Patrick
10-02-2003, 03:55 PM
:withstupi


What he said.

bradley
10-02-2003, 04:17 PM
I agree that total calorie balance will be the determing factor as to whether or not you gain/lose weught.

Although if one were to overfeed on just protein alone then it should not contribute lead to any significant amount of fat gain, assuming you were eating protein with minimal fat. Excess protein will be converted to glucose, via gluconeogenesis, and the conversion of glucose to fat is not an effecient process in the body (de novo lipogenesis).

PizDoff
10-02-2003, 05:11 PM
Did I miss something here?
Help me for a sec....

Protein turns to fat?

GonePostal
10-02-2003, 05:19 PM
excess calories = fat
protien = calories

bradley
10-03-2003, 01:54 AM
Originally posted by PizDoff
Did I miss something here?
Help me for a sec....

Protein turns to fat?

The protein does not necessarily turn into fat, but if you are eating an excess amount of protein then the body will not be burning any stored bodyfat and storing dietary fat.

As previously stated, calorie balance will be the determining factor as to whether or not you gain/lose weight.

Holto
10-03-2003, 09:57 AM
Originally posted by PizDoff
Did I miss something here?
Help me for a sec....

Protein turns to fat?

it can after it's converted to sugar

AJ_11
10-03-2003, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by Holto


it can after it's converted to sugar

Like Bradley Stated if eated alone then it is harder for it to turn into fat. Hence the TEF, I think its like 45-55% gets burned in the digestion process.

bradley
10-03-2003, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by AJ_11


Like Bradley Stated if eated alone then it is harder for it to turn into fat. Hence the TEF, I think its like 45-55% gets burned in the digestion process.

Agreed. You would have to eat a huge amount of protein to cause DNL. Just think how little DNL contributes to fat gain during short periods of overfeeding on carbs, i.e. refeeding.

triplej
10-03-2003, 10:04 PM
Bradley if I take in 200 mg of proetien from shakes daily and another 200 from whole foods could this be a bad practice, an example would be 1 shake am pre cardio, then 1 shake pre weight trainingw/carbs , 1 shake post workout , then 1 b4 bed w/ flax oil, then inbetween all that i have 4 fist sized meals all high protien low carbs, just wondering becuase for the last 4 weeks my weight hasnt moved, i was trying to convert some unwanted or stubborn fat into LBM any suggestions or thoughts

Budiak
10-03-2003, 11:02 PM
Thats all you eat for breakfast?

noraa
10-04-2003, 01:06 AM
Like Bradley Stated if eated alone then it is harder for it to turn into fat. Hence the TEF, I think its like 45-55% gets burned in the digestion process.
but think what happens with protien during this 'burning off'
Oxidation is the process of getting energy from food, energy that could have been provided from bodyfat.

bradley
10-04-2003, 03:47 AM
Originally posted by triplej
Bradley if I take in 200 mg of proetien from shakes daily and another 200 from whole foods could this be a bad practice, an example would be 1 shake am pre cardio, then 1 shake pre weight trainingw/carbs , 1 shake post workout , then 1 b4 bed w/ flax oil, then inbetween all that i have 4 fist sized meals all high protien low carbs, just wondering becuase for the last 4 weeks my weight hasnt moved, i was trying to convert some unwanted or stubborn fat into LBM any suggestions or thoughts

The chances of you losing bf while gaining significant amounts of muscle are slim, and you would probably see better results focusing on one goal at a time.

Taking in that much protein is not going to hurt you, unless you have some previous medical condition (kidney issues, etc.). The excess calories are the reason that you are not losing bf, and keep in mind that just because you are taking in 400g of protein does not necessarily mean you will add LBM. More protein does not equal more muscle, and providing the body with more than it needs will just cause the protein to be oxidized for energy. In order for you to lose bf you will need to create a calorie deficit, so a good place to cut back cals would be to cut down your protein intake. ~1g of protein per lb. of bw would be plenty.

AJ_11
10-04-2003, 01:11 PM
1gr is a good place to start, I like to get 1.5 to 2g. That's becasue I focus all my meals around protein. I usually either have P+f or P+C meals. It all comes down to whether you are in a caloric surplus or defiecient at the end of the day. But I will tell you this my that, if you eat to much protein, and not enough fats or carbs, you will start feeling like sh!t. Also if weight loss is #1 make sure you are getting all you fats from EFA and olive oil, some saturated fats, carbs from Starches mainly low on the GI, and quality protein.

Just my $0.02

chris mason
10-04-2003, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by bradley
I agree that total calorie balance will be the determing factor as to whether or not you gain/lose weught.

Although if one were to overfeed on just protein alone then it should not contribute lead to any significant amount of fat gain, assuming you were eating protein with minimal fat. Excess protein will be converted to glucose, via gluconeogenesis, and the conversion of glucose to fat is not an effecient process in the body (de novo lipogenesis).


Ok, but Bradley, what do you think happens to the converted glucose if you are already consuming more than your daily needed calories?

Your body either burns calories or stores them as fat.

the doc
10-04-2003, 02:57 PM
yes true but 1 kcal of excess protein does not equal 1 kcal of fat

the doc
10-04-2003, 03:01 PM
i should condition that statement on the fact that there are way to many variables to apply it to real life situations.

bradley
10-04-2003, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by chris mason
Ok, but Bradley, what do you think happens to the converted glucose if you are already consuming more than your daily needed calories?

Your body either burns calories or stores them as fat.

I agree that total calorie balance is the main determining factor as to whether or not you gian weight, although in my post you will notice that I stated if one were to overfeed on protein alone.

Excess protein will be converted to glucose, and the glucose will then be used for immediate energy or stored as glycogen and/or fat. My point is that the conversion of glucose to fat is not likely to contribute to fat gain, in the short term anyway.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11722954&dopt=Abstract
"De novo lipogenesis increases after overfeeding with glucose and sucrose to the same extent in lean and obese women but does not contribute greatly to total fat balance."

This study shows that continued overfeeding on glucose will cause fat gain, so de novo lipogenesis can contribute to fat gain if one were to continuously overfeed on glucose.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3165600&dopt=Abstract

Gluconeogenesis is also costly from an energy standpoint, so yes it is possible to gain fat from overfeeding on protein alone, but it would require a large amount of protein.

chris mason
10-04-2003, 06:32 PM
Bradley, let's look at what was said.


You said, "Although if one were to overfeed on just protein alone then it should not lead to any significant amount of fat gain, assuming you were eating protein with minimal fat. Excess protein will be converted to glucose, via gluconeogenesis, and the conversion of glucose to fat is not an effecient process in the body (de novo lipogenesis)."


Ok, now this scenario was about
overfeeding . Overfeeding means one is consuming more calories than are necessary. Someone who is consuming sufficient calories (of a normal mix) will have full glycogen stores most of the time (obviously not right after exercise).

Now, if the excess calories were protein (no or low fat), you said that they would be converted to glucose. Let's assume this is accurate. If the body already has sufficient glucose and this created glucose is excess (remember we are overfeeding), then the body has no choice but to convert the bulk of this excess glucose to fat.

You said that it should not lead to any significant fat gain. What would it lead to? Where would the excess calories/glucose go?


You also said that total calories consumed vs. burned was the primary factor in fat gain or loss. I agree with you there completely.

So, I agreed with you partially, but not with the statement that protein during overfeeding will not be converted to fat.

Now, keep in mind, if one has stimulated tissue growth with weightlifting etc., then consuming more protein to meet the body's increased need (and total calories) would not be turned to fat, but then you wouldn't be overfeeding either.

aka23
10-04-2003, 06:45 PM
It is important to distanguish between glucose/protein being converted to fat (de novo lipogenesis) and excess glucose/protein/calories causing fat gain. Here are some quotes from a recent post I made on this subject:

"The body does not convert significant amounts of carbs to fat, excluding certain unusual situations (very low fat diet, very high fructose/sucrose consumption, medical conditions, ...). The study at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8675642&dopt=Abstract found that when subjects ate a diet with a 50% caloric surplus of carbohydrates, less than 5g of fat per day was created via DNL (converting carbs or protein to fat). "
...
"For 5 days the subjects overfed 50% of their energy requirement by adding carbs to their diet. Even under such extreme conditions, less than 5g of carbs per day was converted to fat. This does not mean that the sujects did not gain body fat. Fat burning slowed down and carb/glycogen burning increased so that more fat was stored than burned. In this way a caloric surplus of carbs increases body fat without filling up glycogen stores and without converting carbs to fat. "

AJ_11
10-05-2003, 02:52 AM
If one eats an excess of calories then that doesn't mean that the the person gains fat. Let's look at a above maintence diet where a person is taking in more calories, therefor gaining muscle and fat. CHO, would refill glycogen levels quicker and casuing more of an insulin response which would immediatley halt fat burning. Fats also breakdown slower and an excess of fat would also be stored. Protein og the other hand, would be broken down and used by the body, and would less likely to be stored as actually bodyfat.

It all depends on the source as well. If it came from whey, it would be broken down sooner and stored being converted to glucose becasue of it High BV value. Hypotheticial speaking if one was to overeat say, Tuna of the entire day. And eating say 1000 cals overmaintence, it would be the least likely source to turn into actual bodyfat.

Take the same scenario and overfeed on a dietary fat, or carb then the person is more likely to store as bodyfat.

bradley
10-05-2003, 04:16 AM
Originally posted by chris mason
Now, if the excess calories were protein (no or low fat), you said that they would be converted to glucose. Let's assume this is accurate. If the body already has sufficient glucose and this created glucose is excess (remember we are overfeeding), then the body has no choice but to convert the bulk of this excess glucose to fat.

You said that it should not lead to any significant fat gain. What would it lead to? Where would the excess calories/glucose go?


I am referring to overfeeding on protein alone, much in the same way one would overfeed on carbs only when refeeding. You are correct in that the calories will have to go somewhere and this can be explained by the energy deficit caused by the conversion of protein to glucose and also when overfeeding one would see an increase in metabolic rate, which could explain another area where an energy was being used.

The study below documents an increase in metabolic rate after ingestion of 500g of carbs.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3799507&dopt=Abstract

Of course if you are overfeeding you will not be burning stored bf and you will be using an increased amount of glucose and stored glycogen for energy, as aka23 previously mentioned.

This study also addresses one of the points made in your post, regarding glycogen levels and amount of fat synthesized from overfeeding on glucose. The study does show that the group previously following a high fat diet had greater glycogen storage than the mixed or high carbohydrate group, but even after the ingestion of 500g of carbs there was no significant change in bf levels.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=6696064&dopt=Abstract

bradley
10-05-2003, 04:19 AM
Originally posted by AJ_11
Take the same scenario and overfeed on a dietary fat, or carb then the person is more likely to store as bodyfat.

Well if one were to overfeed on carbs alone you would not see much in the way of fat gain, but I am thinking you might have meant carb+fat.;)

chris mason
10-05-2003, 09:15 AM
Come on guys, is it really important to distinguish exactly where the fat came from?

In other words, let's assume the study you mentioned was correct aka. If it is, people still got fatter overeating carbs, just like they would get fatter overeating protein.

Whether the body slows down fat burning etc. is really rather irrelevent to the main point of the argument which is that overeating, by definition, leads to an increase in bodyfat. That is exactly what the study states.

Reading your guy's posts might make one wonder how it is possible to get fat. Overeating protein doesn't do it (according to you), overeating carbs doesn't do it (according to you), so exactly how did the millions and millions of Americans who are fat get that way?

What I am trying to make you guys understand is that you have to be able to pull back from the theory of the science you are reading and look at the objective reality as well. If you overeat, you will gain fat. It is really that simple. Now, you will also gain muscle (especially if training hard), and certain kinds of foods do promote fat gain more than others, but the simple hard facts are that you will gain bodyfat (if you overeat for an extended period of time, not just a few days).

chris mason
10-05-2003, 09:20 AM
Bradley, this abstract you referenced states that overeating of carbs leads to fat gains.

Carbohydrate metabolism and de novo lipogenesis in human obesity.

Acheson KJ, Schutz Y, Bessard T, Flatt JP, Jequier E.

Respiratory exchange was measured during 14 consecutive hours in six lean and six obese individuals after ingestion of 500 g of dextrin maltose to investigate and compare their capacity for net de novo lipogenesis. After ingestion of the carbohydrate load, metabolic rates rose similarly in both groups but fell earlier and more rapidly in the obese. RQs also rose rapidly and remained in the range of 0.95 to 1.00 for approximately 8 h in both groups. During this time, RQ exceeded 1.00 for only short periods of time with the result that 4 +/- 1 g and 5 +/- 3 g (NS) of fat were synthesized via de novo lipogenesis in excess of concomitant fat oxidation in the lean and obese subjects, respectively. Results demonstrate that net de novo lipid synthesis from an unusually large carbohydrate load is not greater in obese than in lean individuals.

bradley
10-05-2003, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by chris mason
Come on guys, is it really important to distinguish exactly where the fat came from?

Understanding how each macronutrient affects body composition is of interest to me, and if one knows how each affects body composition you might be able to improve overall body composition.

Although in the grand scheme of things it is not really significant, seeing as how one needs a combination of each macronutrient to have a balanced "bodybuilding" diet.



In other words, let's assume the study you mentioned was correct aka. If it is, people still got fatter overeating carbs, just like they would get fatter overeating protein.

Whether the body slows down fat burning etc. is really rather irrelevent to the main point of the argument which is that overeating, by definition, leads to an increase in bodyfat. That is exactly what the study states.

Yes, although sometimes overeating one macrnutrient, i.e. carbs, can be beneficial, which is the case when refeeding. Overeating on carbs can have a beneficial metabolic effects when dieting, without causing fat gain.



Reading your guy's posts might make one wonder how it is possible to get fat. Overeating protein doesn't do it (according to you), overeating carbs doesn't do it (according to you), so exactly how did the millions and millions of Americans who are fat get that way?

The obesity epidemic in America can be attributed to numerous factors, and one will increase overall bf levels if they overeat day in and day out, regardless of where the calories are coming from.

The increased consumption of calories (high fructose corn syrup, processed foods, etc.) and the reduced activity level are a couple of the factors associated with the obesity epidemic in America.

bradley
10-05-2003, 10:57 AM
Originally posted by chris mason
Bradley, this abstract you referenced states that overeating of carbs leads to fat gains.


Yes it does, but I never stated that de novo lipogenesis would not contribute to the synthesis of fat. I did state that overeating carbs/protein in the short term would not contribute to any significant change in bf, and in that study ~4g of fat were synthesized from the ingestion of 500g of carbs.

bradley
10-05-2003, 11:07 AM
This study shows that if one continuously overate carbs, you would see a substantial increase in the amount of fat synthesized.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3165600&dopt=Abstract

chris mason
10-05-2003, 11:30 AM
Originally posted by bradley


Yes it does, but I never stated that de novo lipogenesis would not contribute to the synthesis of fat. I did state that overeating carbs/protein in the short term would not contribute to any significant change in bf, and in that study ~4g of fat were synthesized from the ingestion of 500g of carbs.

Overeating of any type won't do much if done for a short period of time.

Remember also that even though new fat isn't being created, less fat is being burned.

chris mason
10-05-2003, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by bradley
I agree that total calorie balance will be the determing factor as to whether or not you gain/lose weught.

Although if one were to overfeed on just protein alone then it should not contribute lead to any significant amount of fat gain, assuming you were eating protein with minimal fat. Excess protein will be converted to glucose, via gluconeogenesis, and the conversion of glucose to fat is not an effecient process in the body (de novo lipogenesis).



I just wanted to point out that you did not initially qaulify your statement with "short term".

What you said was the overfeeding by protein alone would not result in any "significant" gain in bodyfat. No time qualifier.

That was what I disagreed with.

In any event the studies referenced were interesting and I learned something.

bradley
10-05-2003, 11:43 AM
Originally posted by chris mason




I just wanted to point out that you did not initially qaulify your statement with "short term".

What you said was the overfeeding by protein alone would not result in any "significant" gain in bodyfat. No time qualifier.

That was what I disagreed with.

In any event the studies referenced were interesting and I learned something.

I should have made that clear from the beginning, although I did state it in another post.:)


Originally posted by bradley
Excess protein will be converted to glucose, and the glucose will then be used for immediate energy or stored as glycogen and/or fat. My point is that the conversion of glucose to fat is not likely to contribute to fat gain, in the short term anyway.

AJ_11
10-05-2003, 04:08 PM
The obesity epidemic in America can be attributed to numerous factors, and one will increase overall bf levels if they overeat day in and day out, regardless of where the calories are coming from.

The increased consumption of calories (high fructose corn syrup, processed foods, etc.) and the reduced activity level are a couple of the factors associated with the obesity epidemic in America.



If we are talking about the Americian diet it is all the refined foods and high suger intake that is making them fat. Typically the Americian diet is not that high in protein at all, it is mainly Simple Carbs & Fat. Go to any Fast Food resturaunt, you will not find anything any High Calorie meal containing a significant amt. of protein.




Remember also that even though new fat isn't being created, less fat is being burned.



Overeating any Macronutrient will stall fat loss, but it takes less carbs, and fat to promote Fat gain. As soon as you get a insulin response fat burning comes to a halt. It takes more protein, to create such a response and stop fat burning then fat storage.

All I am saying that Carbs (although have some metabolic benefits, like bradley stated w/ Leptin levels) and Fat overeating will cause more fat storage in a calorie to calorie comparison. Protein also makes you fuller, where as you are more likely to stuff your self silly before any fat storing takes affect.