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Esperantistino
10-28-2003, 12:37 AM
So, I had a major lapse in the past weekend.

I've been low-carbing for an extended period (around 13 months) with moderate to good success.
Tinkered with several versions, like going extremely low on carbs for 2 months and carbing up in weekends (CKD), upping carbs and small weekend carb up (TKD, most of the time) and sometimes high-carbing (during periods of lotsa cardio).

This past week I've gone very low again, both in carbs and in food intake as it was a rest week from a HST-cycle.

I felt crappy all week long (exercise deprivation) and kept craving carbs, even more so after a psychological breakdown (had some personal probs and prob also after not taking stimulants).

I didn't carb up in a clean way, not at all (how could I without a proper depletion WO) but loaded on real junkfood.
The proper Dutch sugar-loaded junkfood is licorice (if you didn't know, it lowers testosterone, and heightens BP).
I more or less intentionally didn't count calories....

To my utmost shock I saw that I'd gained a freaking 5 kgs in the course of 3 days. E.g. Friday morning I weighed in 65 kg (down from 67 kg, mostly from water loss) and on Monday morning it was 70 kg.. a diff of 5 , yes FIVE kgs (11 lbs for the metrically challenged amongtst you).

I'm pretty sure it's mostly water retention, but THIS much? It's outright creepy.
Oh, 1 day later it's down to 68,5 kg.. 1,5 kg less in 24 hrs.

More experiences on this fooked up carb loads?

I'm starting my next HST cycle today and hope I'll be able to lift more this time.. I hope I'll manage as I slept 22 hrs in 2 days during the carb load and after yesterday's return to low-carb mode didn't sleep more than 4 hrs tonight. Somehow I end up being hyper when on a keto-diet.

Espi

bradley
10-28-2003, 02:24 AM
Originally posted by Esperantistino
To my utmost shock I saw that I'd gained a freaking 5 kgs in the course of 3 days. E.g. Friday morning I weighed in 65 kg (down from 67 kg, mostly from water loss) and on Monday morning it was 70 kg.. a diff of 5 , yes FIVE kgs (11 lbs for the metrically challenged amongtst you).

I'm pretty sure it's mostly water retention, but THIS much? It's outright creepy.
Oh, 1 day later it's down to 68,5 kg.. 1,5 kg less in 24 hrs.

More experiences on this fooked up carb loads?

While you might have gained a small amount of fat, due to the three days of cheating, most of the weigh that you gained can probably be attributed to water and glycogen. Just remember when you first started the low carb diet, and the large initial weight loss that occurred. Same thing happens when you re-introduce carbs into your diet.

What does your diet look like (calories, macro ratios)? How often do you carb up on average? What is your ~bf%? I know that sometimes cheating can be minimized/prevented by implementing a proper carb up/refeed every week or so.

Esperantistino
10-28-2003, 08:02 AM
I've been fairly sloppy in my diet for the recent, let's say 3-4 months.
In July I went cycle-touring for 3 wks in Norway and had waaaay too few carbs and too little kcal-intake (prob around 1500?) on too much cardio.
Upon return I had my lowest BF% sofar (26,5%, btw I'm female and came down from 33% last October) and lowest weight too (63 kg). But I'd lost too much strenght so I did a 2-week refeed early August as I was going to ride a 1200 K nonstop ride. Failed, not due to lack of strength but knee probs. Gained weight fast till 67 kg after finishing.
In Sept I went back to weight lifting after a hiatus of 2 months. My first full HST cycle coincided with a knee rehab.. not so good as it drained me. I had gone back to low-carbing and zoomed down to 63 kg within 10 days.. but the HST cycle made me so hungry I gained weight again (and 2 cm on upper arms too, so it wasn't all bad news!) till 67kg (and 29% BF :( ).
Thought to use the rest week for a proper keto-week.. I've been eating about 50-100 g of carbs on non-lifting days and around 100-200 carbs on lifting days. Can't really tell the amt of cals, but prob a bit over 2000 kcal. Enough for bulking with a fooked up metabolism at least...

Anyway.. I'm dabbling with a proper food schedule now, as it seems that eyeballing portions isn't working that well.
My plans are to eat around 1500 kcals on non-lifting days (Tues-Thurs-Sun) with a 15-40-45 breakdown in carbs-protein-fat (55g carbs, 150 g protein, 73 g fat).
I am using a variety of fat sources like cod liver oil, butter, and shredded coconut for the MCTs (coconut oil made me as sick as a dog).
On lifting days (Mon-Wed-Fri) I'll up it to around 2100 kcals and eat isocaloric (33% each, with 175 g of carbs & protein and 78 g of fat).
Considering the bad luck I had with previous carb-ups (I could never do them in a clean way as I'm a carboholic and act irresponsably in my caloric intake on those days) I'll just eat a few carb rich things on Saturday, like sherbert icecream and a new favourite bean soups (which I can also use for the carb-richer isocaloric days). In previous days, I'd gain so much weight (3kg typically) that it would last till next Friday until the extra weight was gone (and then I'd carb up etc. etc.). But moving to TKD didn't work either.

As you may see.. I've been thinking (and tinkering) with these things for the longest time. But the bare basics e.g. how many calories I actually need is still very elusive.. I tend to believe that 1800 cals is my maintenance intake, as this is what I have eaten for a long time and can't manage to get my weight down with.. (doesn't leave me hungry either!).
This is the main reason why I now want to start tinkering with zigzagging my food intake to below comfort level on non-lifting days (I WO in the morning) and above on WO-days.

My best friend, a 25-y.o. woman who started to bulk in order to gain weight found her maintenance intake to be 2100 kcal, while she was weighing 15 kg less (now 10 kg less) than I do and she basically does similar things (actually even less, as I cycle more than she does).
I've even bought Lyle's latest book in order to look into the latest details on dieting, even though my BF is still way above the UD2.0 starting level. (BTW, I'm now also reading Body Opus, a magnificent book, which is where I got the idea from to eat MCT-fats).

Exasparated Espi

bradley
10-28-2003, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by Esperantistino
Anyway.. I'm dabbling with a proper food schedule now, as it seems that eyeballing portions isn't working that well.
My plans are to eat around 1500 kcals on non-lifting days (Tues-Thurs-Sun) with a 15-40-45 breakdown in carbs-protein-fat (55g carbs, 150 g protein, 73 g fat).
I am using a variety of fat sources like cod liver oil, butter, and shredded coconut for the MCTs (coconut oil made me as sick as a dog). On lifting days (Mon-Wed-Fri) I'll up it to around 2100 kcals and eat isocaloric (33% each, with 175 g of carbs & protein and 78 g of fat).

I think the approach you have outlined above will be a good change of pace, since it incorporates carbs around your training, and also tracking cals will go a long way to achieving your goals. By following the apprioach above I do not think you will need to incorporate refeeds, and the addition of a few high carb/cheat meals on Saturday will allow you to keep motivation up when dieting.

If you think 1800 cals is your approximate maintenance intake then stick with the plan above for a couple of weeks, and then adjust calories according to the results that you get.

It does not sounds as though Lyle's UD 2.0 would be appropriate for you right now, due to your lack of success with carb ups, but you should be able to incorporate some of his idea's into your current training, as well as some from Bodyopus.

Best of luck:) You might also consider starting up a journal, which is an excellent motivation tool.

Esperantistino
10-28-2003, 03:24 PM
Thanks for reading through my verbose stuff...

I always tend to overcomplicate things because I'm too interested in details, but overlook the basics..
Like... finding out what my real maintenance level is...
is it really 1800 kcal or am I not losing because I starve myself. Don't think so.. but eating 1500kcal and overdoing cardio (hey, it's a cycling trip with mostly 6-8 hrs of cycling) is not the way to do it..

Yeah.. I read somewhere that TKDs are better for women and CKDs less appropriate.
I really find it a lot of fun to dig into this stuff.. so reading Body OPus and next week UD2.0 and bromocriptine will be fun! (need to reread Ketogenic Diet as well!)

Espi

PizDoff
10-28-2003, 06:07 PM
Ok, ok.
Way too much to read right now......


Are you SURE those are pounds or kilograms?

Esperantistino
10-28-2003, 06:42 PM
I'm a metric fundamentalist my lad.. ;)

I have converted to lbs for your convenience.. not for mine. We have some dumb plates hanging around here with only lbs indications.. but.. it was 5 kilograms = 11 lbs fyi.

I freaked out.. that's 7,5% of my total body weight..

Espi

Esperantistino
10-29-2003, 11:20 AM
Geez.. I vomited for the 2nd time in 2 weeks.
Last week I thought it was the use of coconut oil with perhaps a few veggies that weren't as fresh as they should be..
Now I'm pretty sure it coincided with the start of using SAN Tight as a stacker. There are some really weird components in that one.. mostly I research what I take, but this time I'd ordered for 2 friends who wanted it and I just went along and took 1 pot.
Man.. I've been on pure EC for nearly 8 months now with very few side-efects and had added Lipoderm a few months ago. Also, no problem... then I started using guggul and Absolved. I feel like a laboratory rat at the moment. I'd better cut out that creepy stacker and concentrate on the bloody kcal intake. Why does everyone say I'd need to eat 2100 kcal for maintenance when I start gaining weight on that amt of kcals?

Anywayz.. I was so sick that today I'll be getting in barely 1200 kcals.. down from 2100 kcals yesterday. Not too bad actually. I upped the whey protein so that I'd get to the necessary 150 g of protein. Didn't get enough veggies in though :( (threw up the mushrooms & leek this morning).

Had a splitting headache too.. when I checked with my primitive blood pressure meter (a battery thingy) it read 180/110 two times. Then 125/80 and then 150/100. Time I get that old-fashioned stethoscope. I mean, when I start experimenting with freaky supplements, I'd better start checking my health. Last time in June when I had a health checkup it was 110/65.. oh HR is 50 right now. But that's ordinary for me.. I guess it's still also a side-effect of the licorice. When I vomited last week, I didn't have such a headache.. so definitely also the licorice.. still hold the extra water as well. But it should come down tomorrow as I have been drinking water today like a sailor drinks liquor. Which is typical for the day I get into ketosis.

Espi, getting better now.. and hoping that she can sleep tonight!

bradley
10-29-2003, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by Esperantistino
There are some really weird components in that one.. mostly I research what I take, but this time I'd ordered for 2 friends who wanted it and I just went along and took 1 pot.
Man.. I've been on pure EC for nearly 8 months now with very few side-efects and had added Lipoderm a few months ago. Also, no problem... then I started using guggul and Absolved. I feel like a laboratory rat at the moment. I'd better cut out that creepy stacker and concentrate on the bloody kcal intake.

The Ab-Solved or Lipoderm should not cause any vomiting since the gel is for localized distribution. Might want to drop either the guggul or Tight and see how you respond.



Why does everyone say I'd need to eat 2100 kcal for maintenance when I start gaining weight on that amt of kcals?

I would not consider 2100 maintenance calories if you gain weight when consuming that amount.:)

Esperantistino
10-29-2003, 02:27 PM
Indeed, but my best friend weighs 10 kg less than I do and for her 2100 kcal is maintenance.
I wasn't gaining or losing on 1800 kcal which I took for months on end .
I can't really know what I ate when I was travelling (anyone who has a Palm program for nutrition? I have a Sony Clié and am fairly pleased with it.. but I guesstimate i was at about 1500kcal and with lotsa cardio I WOULD lose weight.. not too diff to guess that 1800 kcal is maintenance for me.
I've tried many, many ways of calculating my BMR (including exercise) but all came up with 2100-2500 kcals for maintenance. NOT TRUE!

Sigh.. it was the TIGHT alright.. it has 20-25 mg of guggul and I have an even better source of guggul (45mg/dose) and that didn't cause any problems whatsoever. Just 1 pill of Tight does me in...

espi

bradley
10-29-2003, 04:04 PM
Originally posted by Esperantistino
Indeed, but my best friend weighs 10 kg less than I do and for her 2100 kcal is maintenance.
I wasn't gaining or losing on 1800 kcal which I took for months on end ....
I've tried many, many ways of calculating my BMR (including exercise) but all came up with 2100-2500 kcals for maintenance. NOT TRUE!


You might be able to get an estimate using formulas or basing your intake on other people's maintenance level, but in the end it is going to come down to the individual. The formulas do not take into things such as metabolic rate, bf%, etc.

Esperantistino
10-29-2003, 05:19 PM
That's true... her LBM isn't that much less than mine.. she looks frail but is a tough cookie.
Weighs in at 55 kg but has 45 kg of LBM. I'm 67 kg now and have only 3 kg more of LBM. Lost 1,5 kg of fluid over the day (funny how keto works)


Espi