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w8lifter
09-09-2001, 07:47 AM
Ok, it's not totally a keto diet. But for the past week, I've been eating about 50% fat, 30% pro, 20% carb. Sometimes the fat went to 55 & carb 15. I've dropped 8 freaken pounds of water in a week. I 've been eating 1/3 c oats in the morning and the rest of my carbs are coming from nuts & lettuce.

I was actually reading about the metabolic diet and I guess I'm just kind of floating in between all the different variations and not really commiting to one diet.

Is eating that much carbs going to do anything drastic? I'm thinking if I'm not using ketones due to the carbs, then all that fat is gonna be stored and I'm not getting enough protein so I'm gonna lose muscle. Am I screwing myself here or what?

I need to cut but I don't want to lose ANY muscle. I would rather cut slower than loose muscle.

And what the hell do you eat for fat? I mean, I'm still trying to keep my kcals low, but fat is so costly in terms of calories. All I can come up w/ is steak, yolks, cheese and nuts, lol. There's gotta be more :D

Tryska
09-09-2001, 08:19 AM
hee hee...has a feeling you'd dig dr dipasquale....

you got some ketostix? the way i figure it, if you shed that much water you are doing something right....

ideally though...your fat to protein should be 1.5g fat/1g protein...and at most 30g carbs....ummm....here is a sample of Lyle McDonald's Cutting Keto (using BodyOpus):

Roughly 1500 cals, but it gives a good idea on types of meals:

Breakfast: 3 cheese sticks (5 gram pro, 5 gram fat each) and 2Tbsp
cream cheese (2 grams pro, 10 grams fat): Total 17 grams protein,
25 grams fat which barely makes a 1.5:1 ratio.
Lunch 1 and 2: 1 cup of pink salmon (about 1/2 the can) with 4 TBSP
mayo total (Salmon = 360 cals, 48 pro, 20 fat ; Mayo = 400 cals,
44 fat ; Total = 760 cals, 48 pro, 64 fat which is just shy of a 1.5:1
ratio)
Dinner: 1 scoop designer (18 grams pro) with 1 Tbsp olive oil and
1 Tbsp flax oil (28 grams total). Right at a 1.5:1 ratio.
Alternately, I'll have Designer pudding with 6 TBSP of heavy cream
(30 grams of fat) and 1 scoop Designer (18 grams pro). Basically
interchangeable meals.
Dessert: 1 cup sugar free jello with dairy free whipped cream (essentially
zero calories). This really helps psychologically and adds negligble
calories to the diet.


you should check out his page too...he did a 20 week journal on BodyOpus (it's a tweaked version of DiPasquale's Anabolic/Metabolic Diet)

you can check that here (http://www.solid.net/lowcarb/lylemcd/)

w8lifter
09-09-2001, 11:57 AM
Yes! Thanks Tryska. I'm hoping to attend the swis conference and maybe attend his seminar.

Thanks for the link. I got some tweaking to do, but so far I like this type of diet. No carb cravings at all and there's actual flavour on this diet :D

So I have another question, if I'm eating carbs throughout the week, like a tkd sorta thing, is there still a need to carb up on the w/e? I don't know maybe that'll be answered on that link. Got any more tkd/ckd links? :D

w8lifter
09-09-2001, 12:09 PM
Oh yeah another ?? Do you experience the sh!tty feeling at the beginning of every week going into ketosis or will that subside when my body gets used to the whole process? I felt like death warmed over last week but by the end of the week, I was feeling good.

Tryska
09-09-2001, 06:28 PM
hmmmm...how long have you been doing it?

i'm actually doing a sort of isocaloric, and basically cut out all grains and starches.....and i dip into ketosis sometimes, but it's not constant for me....but i know that first couple weeks SUCKED!. I'm feeling real good now though.....so to answer your question, i'm presuming you get used to it, since i dip back and forth, with no worries now.

and yeah...the diet itself is kinda cool...i may go to CKD in the next couple weeks, i'm teetering on the edge ont hat one...but I've eben thinking about it, mainly because cabr cravings can be satisfied on weekends...I'm 6 weeks out on this diet now, and I know PMS week was the only time i got carb cravings, really. But with a carbup every weekend, i would think it's much easier to manage.

as for the TKD - i don't know much about how that works...but I think there is no carbup at all, since you get the 30 gms, each day. I could be WAY off, though. perhaps there is something in McDonald's writings?

as for other websites.....i haven't found much beside dipasquale, and Lyle's stuff which i got from cack.....but I would think perhaps, lowcarb.com, or maybe adkins site? (i'm betting you could get some recipes from there). I'm gonna do more research tomorrow though. if i pull up any other sites, i'll let you know! :)

w8lifter
09-09-2001, 08:42 PM
I've only done it for one week, lol, but I think I'm hooked.

I'd like to learn more about the TKD cause that's sounds more interesting to me. I was reading cack's journal and a few of his posts too. He said ya don't have to change your w/o's on the TKD like you do the CKD, which would be better for me.

Anyway, thanks again, off to search, it would be cool to find some good recipes too :D

Tryska
09-10-2001, 11:59 AM
hey weight - this applies more to a CKD then a TKD, but check this link out....

http://www.users.voicenet.com/~petrizzi/fitness/ckdcalc.html

Cackerot69
09-10-2001, 06:14 PM
It takes 1-2 weeks for the brain to fully adapt to using ketones as fuel in most people, so you may lack some mental acuity during this period. It will go away, you may not even get it all (I didn't).

No carb-up on a TKD. The TKD was ok, I didn't like it though. CKD is better, IMO...although it's more of a pain in the ass.

Make sure to take a fiber supplement, calcium/magnesium, and a multivitamin/mineral. Creatine will help with muscle fullness as well.

Read Lyle's stuff, he's the man for ketogenic diet info.

Paul Stagg
09-10-2001, 07:48 PM
Yep.

Get his book if you can.

Chock full of good info.

I happen to prefer the TKD because there is less chance to screw up the carb up.

Having a license to eat doghnuts and cereal for 36 hours is NOT a good thing for me. Ug.

w8lifter
09-10-2001, 09:08 PM
I'm feeling a lot better than last week, though I haven't hit ketosis yet. I did an hour of w8's, 20 minutes of cardio and an hour of kickboxing/punching bag so I'm hoping by tomorrow I'll hit it.

I'm still getting used to the whole fat thing. I guess old habits die hard. I ended up taking 30 g carbs today. Will this keep me out of ketosis longer? If I take a max of 30g a day is that not more like a TKD? Should I still carb up on the weekend? I think I agree about the w/e carb up, I'd tend to lose it I think and eat bad stuff. It's really an amazing diet though. I haven't been craving carbs at all, it's a lot better than the typical mod carb, low fat, no freaken flavour thing.

I'm gonna try to get a copy of his book. I'm still wading through his website. I haven't had much time lately.

Thanks again :)

vpy
09-11-2001, 12:29 AM
Originally posted by w8lifter
I'm still getting used to the whole fat thing. I guess old habits die hard. I ended up taking 30 g carbs today. Will this keep me out of ketosis longer? If I take a max of 30g a day is that not more like a TKD? Should I still carb up on the weekend? Thanks again :)

Don't forget that its not just the carbs you need to worry about. People worry about losing muscle on a CKD, so they go and tweak the percentages to include more protein grams. It just won't work at all. All you'll do is have a diet with lots of fat instead of actually going into ketosis. As Tryska says, shoot for 1.5g fat : 1g protein. If you don't do that, you'll be doing more harm than good - you'll probably gain unwanted fat instead of losing it.

My experiences:
(cals)
60% fat, 35% protein, 5% carbs - could not get into ketosis
70% fat, 30% protein - could not get into ketosis.
75% fat, 25% protein - ketosis by 72 hours
80% fat, 20% protein - ketosis after 48 hours
80% fat, 20% protein, 600g ALA 2x daily - ketosis before 48 hours

CKDs are very muscle-sparing, so don't worry about that. The faster you get into ketosis, the better. Once I get in, I start changing the ratios so that I use less fat to stay in.. but still get the benefits of the CKD.

I shoot for 0 grams carbs per day and probably end up eating 10-15 grams carbs per day just b/c there are those nasty carbs that sneak up on you w/o you knowing. Oh, and I'm sure you've ready that you've got to hit the weights hard early on in the week so that you can deplete your body's glycogen reserves...

w8lifter
09-11-2001, 05:41 AM
Yes, I knew about hitting the weights early. I've been eating 30% protein, so you're saying to drop it to 20%? So at 1600 that would be 120 g protein, and 180 g fat. That's a whole lotta fat!!!

Yesterday my breakdown was 67%f, 5%c, & 27% at 1745 cals. But that still only gave me 128 g fat and 116 g protein. Do you mean 1.5 times the protein in calories? or grams? How does anyone eat low calorie on a high fat diet, lol. I'm supposed to only be eating 1500 and I haven't hit that yet! I've been more like 1700-1900!

Tryska
09-11-2001, 05:45 AM
w8 - this is from technical paper #2 of Lyle's page:

Calorie levels: Calories should be set at maintenance or 10-20% below
depending on how quickly you need to drop fat. If you don't know your
maintenance calorie level, start with 12 calories per pound (or 11 calories
per pound of lean body mass) and gauge from there. If you're dropping more
than 2 lbs of fat per week, increase calories. If you feel that fat loss
isn't happening quickly enough, lower them slightly or increase
cardiovascular training. For the sake of example, let's say that your
caloric intake during the no-carb phase is 2000 calories.

75% fat = 2000*.75 = 1500 calories / 9 calories/gram = 166 grams of fat
25% protein = 2000*.25 = 500 calories / 4 calories/gram = 125 grams of protein.

These calories would be divided into three or four meals.

or you could use that last link i posted since it calculates everything for you, based on your BF%

w8lifter
09-11-2001, 08:13 AM
Ok, that makes it a little easier. I feel better now :D 1700-1900 is okay then. Thanks everyone :)

vpy
09-11-2001, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by w8lifter
Yes, I knew about hitting the weights early. I've been eating 30% protein, so you're saying to drop it to 20%? So at 1600 that would be 120 g protein, and 180 g fat. That's a whole lotta fat!!!



yup. lotsa fat... bacon, cheese dogs, mayo.....

I switch from 80% to 70% fat once I've entered ketosis...but like I said before, I could not get INTO ketosis with 70% fat. Everyone is a bit different though.. some can get kicked out of ketosis by just eating 20g carbs in a day, so YMMV.