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View Full Version : Fasting = Muscle Growth? Interesting study.



defcon
11-06-2003, 05:16 AM
Hey, was checking out avant labs forums.. seen this and thought you people might of been interested. Seems a fair number of people are support it.. Myself personally, do not understand all the technical stuff they get into tho.

http://forum.avantlabs.com/index.php?act=ST&f=12&t=6020

AJ_11
11-06-2003, 06:14 AM
interesting studies. Seems to me that what I was doing isn't all that unnatural. Only if I minimized the Binges to 1 day rather than 3 weeks. And kept a lower cal intake on the fasting days. I think that I may try to work w/ my problem rather than against. That may help, controlled binges.

Hmmm, whatdya think defcon. Your on your whey with the oats as those make good items for a refeeds, just resist those Bad Choco bars

defcon
11-06-2003, 06:17 AM
Yeah, im controled with the choc. bars now, like 2.5-3 weeks with only good foods, and only 1 "good food" binge. so im doing really good i think :) but i dunno about the whole fasting thing.. seems kinda dangerours IMO.. I could easily do it tho, take the e/c on fasting days, do nothing to minimize catabolism and still feel half full from the high cal day.. But i dunno.

bradley
11-06-2003, 07:24 AM
I remember reading the above thread on Avant, but you have to keep in mind that the original quoted study was performed on rats. I believe David (sphongled) tried the intermittent fasting without much luck, and I believe the main problem came about from having to cut cals too such low levels on the fasting days.

AJ and defcon, I would not recommend this type of dieting as I think it would promote binge eating, which in your case would not be ideal. If you have problems controlling binges, why embrace it?

The benefits of fasting/binging can also tranfer over to calorie cycling, which would seem to be a much more realistic way of dieting while at the same time reaping some of the benefits of alternating periods of hypo/hypercaloric dieting.

Just thought I would add my thoughts.:)

AJ_11
11-06-2003, 09:57 AM
Thanks for your input. WEl the reason I am contemplating even fasting is seeing the results taht my sister is seeing. See is doing it mainly for detox of the body. But then she tend to eat hyper caloric the next day. She has grown alot leaner in this process.

Bradley I you read some of Vain68's post you will see more to the eyes of this disease. You cannot control it. FOr me it doesn't matter if I am hypo/hypercaloric I still get uges. Now where I see fasting and then controlled binging taking effect is that I would train on the hyper caloric days. And food choices would be mainly CHO, so fat gain would be kept to a minimal, and then on fasted day I would be taking in veggie detox drinks.

Also one more thing that I would like to point out. Food is the culprit. I could go an entire day and not think about food, it is only after a meal and before a meal that I think about food. The more times I eat during the day the more times I have to fight binge encounters. I would rather eat everyother day but I do nopt want to sacrifice any muscle in the process. That is what scares me the most.

defcon
11-06-2003, 01:00 PM
I wil just stick to my 2100 cal diet/day :) Losing good amounts of fat on it ( until yesterday :P but thats in the past now ) and it seemed to of been having great mirror results as well :)

bradley
11-06-2003, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by AJ_11
Also one more thing that I would like to point out. Food is the culprit. I could go an entire day and not think about food, it is only after a meal and before a meal that I think about food. The more times I eat during the day the more times I have to fight binge encounters. I would rather eat everyother day but I do nopt want to sacrifice any muscle in the process. That is what scares me the most.

I was reading the other day about a drug used to treat binge eating disorders Celexa (Citralopram), which might be something worth researching. I have not looked into it in great length, but thought it might be of interest.

It also mentioned a supplement called Relora by Next Pharmaceuticals.

Spartacus
11-06-2003, 05:42 PM
would this be a superior way to make muscle gains/fat reduction for those without binge risk? my natural eating patern (before i made myslef eat regular meals for gaining muscle) i usually ate a small lunch, a medium dinner, and a bowl of cereal before bed. some days i skipped lunch and dinner.

if using "fast" days, would it be useful to add a protein shake or two to help preserve muscle, or would that mess up the homonal change?

also, this sounds somewhat like the ABCDE program.

AJ_11
11-06-2003, 05:54 PM
I think the point of a fast is to eat nothing. Even eating some protein will not have the same effects.

Thanks fot the tips bradley. I think that I am going to get Ultimate Diet and try that out. You know It not like I am allowing myself to binge but if I use it as "refeeds" than I may see greater benefits that I am seeing now. Also I don't think tha ti am full out going to fast just incorporate some low cal and High cal day putting me in a cal deficeient fotr the week.

defcon
11-06-2003, 06:34 PM
yeah, i head great things about UD 2.0.. i also heard that it can turn an iron strong will power to have the strength of a wet noodle :P


Bradely, i have another question for you.. during a refeed i know its best to way up your carb intake, and decrease fat. But what is the purpose of having higher gi foods on a refeed? can i just stick to oatmeal on my refeeds? if i was able to tell myself that on a refeed day i can eat enough oatmeal till im sick then i'll be able to handle the diet no problem :)

defcon
11-06-2003, 06:34 PM
yeah, i head great things about UD 2.0.. i also heard that it can turn an iron strong will power to have the strength of a wet noodle :P


Bradely, i have another question for you.. during a refeed i know its best to way up your carb intake, and decrease fat. But what is the purpose of having higher gi foods on a refeed? can i just stick to oatmeal on my refeeds? if i was able to tell myself that on a refeed day i can eat enough oatmeal till im sick then i'll be able to handle the diet no problem :)

donescobar2000
11-06-2003, 07:27 PM
You avoid the bloat IMO. Take it from me. I once did a refeed on solely bread and some other stuff and felt like shyt for about 2 - 3 days.

AJ_11
11-07-2003, 01:33 AM
High Gi Foods have a greater effect on insulin and thus a greater effect on Leptin. Also most people cannot handle enough low gi foods in enough bulk to raise calories so that is why High is also erecommended. But if you eat alot of oatmeal you will get an insulin response. You could with straight oatmeal, I like to mix it up and add some veggies and fruits as well. Also I have stopped all suger intake so my refeeds are based on rice oatmeal and potatoes.

bradley
11-07-2003, 03:30 AM
Originally posted by defcon
Bradely, i have another question for you.. during a refeed i know its best to way up your carb intake, and decrease fat. But what is the purpose of having higher gi foods on a refeed? can i just stick to oatmeal on my refeeds? if i was able to tell myself that on a refeed day i can eat enough oatmeal till im sick then i'll be able to handle the diet no problem :)

Adding to what AJ11 stated, high GI carbs will cause more of an insulin response which means that carbs will enter the hexosamine biosynthetic pathway faster (thanks TCD).

If one consumes enough low GI carbs they will act like high GI carbs due to the glycemic load.

If you are planning a refeed it would be beneficial to plan it around your training, so just start off the refeed with a nice post workout shake and continue with low GI carbs for the remainder of the refeed.

defcon
11-07-2003, 04:30 AM
Originally posted by AJ_11
Also most people cannot handle enough low gi foods in enough bulk to raise calories so that is why High is also erecommended.


Watch me :)

Thanx guys.. btw, yesterday was the first day after my oaytmeal/cc binge, and it went perfect :D i weighed in this morning @ 177 lol, aww well, my constant reminding myself of my next refeed is gonna keep me going easily! :) woohoo!

AllUp
11-07-2003, 12:03 PM
Originally posted by donescobar2000
You avoid the bloat IMO. Take it from me. I once did a refeed on solely bread and some other stuff and felt like shyt for about 2 - 3 days.

Yeah I noticed the same. Tends to throw you for a loop for a day or 2.

Personally On my carbups I would have Simple Carbs Post w/o then my load-day would start w/complex carbs so i dont spike after waking up.The load thru the day is mainly complex with small simples at 3-4hr intervals. End the night w/complex a minimum of 1hr b4 bed.

complex do anything wholewheat, oat, etc. Simples mainly Pasta(wicked CARB-age) :) Toss in some veggies and Chicken/turkey atleast twice this day.

Main thing seems to be having complex before and after the simples and not have the simples alone. Pure-Simples=Liquid Toilet-brownies.

Has worked fine for me, Still experimenting though. :) Just Mah T00-Cent :P
-AllUp

AJ_11
11-07-2003, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by defcon



Watch me :)

Thanx guys.. btw, yesterday was the first day after my oaytmeal/cc binge, and it went perfect :D i weighed in this morning @ 177 lol, aww well, my constant reminding myself of my next refeed is gonna keep me going easily! :) woohoo!

Thats why I said most. I know that you can handle it and I most certainly can. Man me and you should have a oatmeal eat off. I would leave you in the dust. (*I am not sure if that is something to bragg about.)

I do a refeed after a low cal day, usually after training. But sometimes I start with some carbs b4 training. I am going to try to go 3 low cals days and then a big refeed on monday. I am really interested in UD 2.0 but don't want it to be another book that just sit there after a read.

And and the lower I drop my cals the less hungrier I get. Most of my hunger and urge for all out binge comes from

1. Thinking that I am underweight
2. Wanting more muscle
3. Afraid of catabolisim becasue of low cal days
4. Eating
5.Overtraining
6. Depression
7. Stress at work

These are some of the cause. So I am working on It goiing from my list I am trying to elimate all of my problems that are triggering it and not thinking about the one that I can not control. The thing is if I plan a refeed than it goes all good and I keep the fat low, although cals are still preety high. But at least the fat is low. But in the last month they were all preety uncontrolled eating sh!t that I think are diqusting and never had urges b4. Pizza, Ice Cream, Cookies, Chocolate. This is stuff that I never really ate. But now I have controlled it to a point, and I plan on good refeeds every 3rd day or so. That might controll cravings.

defcon
11-07-2003, 12:28 PM
those are the same things that triggers binges in me lol, dam. Yeah.. i would like to give the UD 2.0 a try, i may buy the book and try the diet once i get down to say 10%bf or so

mr_kyle
11-07-2003, 05:06 PM
food (especially carbs) are a big binge trigger for me though it is mostly under control now. ive been doing UD2 for about 5 weeks now and the knowledge that you have a carb load at the end of the week makes sticking to the low cal days rather easy.

the carb load must still be controlled however, im only 70kg (150lbs or so) and have no problem putting down 900g carbs over the course of a day. and thats with counting, if i were to let myself go....i darent think what i could eat.