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View Full Version : Isn't Ketosis a bad thing?



chubbyboy
11-14-2003, 08:11 AM
According to Arnold Schwarznegger's Modern Encyclopedia of Bodybuilding, Ketosis is not a state one wants to be in because good carbohydrates help one's metabolism. I know that I did do the Atkin's diet a few times and I did lose a lot of weight rather quickly. However, when I would lift weights, it seemed as though I could barely lift crud.

Paul Stagg
11-14-2003, 08:52 AM
a) Arnold isn't the be all end all of bodybuilding or nutrition information.

b) In order to lift effectively, a modified keto diet is the way to go - if you go keto at all - either a CKD or TKD. An SKD (Atkins) will not be effective for a lifter.

chubbyboy
11-14-2003, 08:59 AM
What are the different states of Ketosis you're referring to?

Paul Stagg
11-14-2003, 09:22 AM
TKD - Targetted ketogenic diet. Essentially a ketogenic diet (like Atkins), but you eat carbs (simple, not fructose) right around when you train. I used to eat about 50g of smarties candy right before I lifted. Other than that, did keto.

CKD - Cyclical ketogenic diet. You eat keto for a given period of time (usually 5 days) then carb up for 24-48 hours. You structure your training to take advantage of the carb up (and to deplete right before the carb up)

For the best resource on the subject, get Lyle mcDonald's book "The Ketogenic Diet" You can buy it and download it from www.bodyrecomposition.com

chubbyboy
11-14-2003, 09:48 AM
Thank you seņor. I'll look into the book. For me, Atkins' level of Ketosis really took a toll on me as far as lifting weights. I could still run all day, but that didn't do me anygood.

galileo
11-14-2003, 10:30 AM
Paul was right, but I'd also like to make a note that there are plenty of diet options out there and Atkin's is just one of them. Take the time to look around and find information on cutting and especially cyclic dieting in general. Good luck.

SquareHead
11-14-2003, 12:22 PM
Galileo I knew you "sound like the sort of "educated" type who still believes that the Atkin's Diet is bad everyone, and that dietary cholesterol leads to atherosclorosis "

galileo
11-14-2003, 12:29 PM
ROFL!

Shroud
11-14-2003, 12:49 PM
They aren't really "states" of ketosis. You're either in ketosis or you aren't. TKD and CKD are diets designed around the desire to be in ketosis for at least part of the week.

note: Atkins in its main form isn't really the best of design for weightlifting imho. You'd do much better with an eating plan containing more carbs and pre and/or post workout nutrition than one where you're always at a low level of carbs. Workouts tend to get very lackluster without sufficient carbs in the diet.

defcon
11-14-2003, 02:54 PM
Balanced Diet > TDK > CKD > Atkins

I havent read the UD 2.0 book but it seems like its the best way to get extra lean from what people have been saying. But if your not sub 12% alrdy then i suggest a balanced diet. then try something more "drastic".

Bruise Brubaker
11-14-2003, 04:29 PM
Anything that quickly make you burn a lot of fat can't be good. The body stores some free radicals in your fat reserves, if you release them quickly your immune system will have to work a lot more. This is not healthy.

Paul Stagg
11-16-2003, 08:23 AM
Can you present any evidence to that effect?

Bruise Brubaker
11-23-2003, 12:04 PM
Wait, I'll ask the guy who wrote the articles about this.

Bruise Brubaker
11-23-2003, 12:15 PM
I can't find the article back. It was in french, that's why anyway I wouldn't paste it here.

But anyway the only evidence I can show is that I found that pesticides are fat-soluble, and we get them from the fat of animals who ate the pesticides.

What happens to the things stored in the "burned" fat? I don't know.

I also read, concerning ketosis, that "Diets high in fat produce more free radicals than the body can safely handle because
oxidation happens easier in fat molecules than protein and carbohydrate".

Sorry for the lack proofs.

Spartacus
11-24-2003, 05:39 AM
i remember reading something along those lines concerning the biosphere participants. they lost a lot of weight and this introduced pesticides into their system even though their foods were being grown without. i don't have a reference ofr this, however.

Joe Black
11-24-2003, 06:19 AM
Another variation of a modified keto diet is the NHE (Natural Hormone Enhancement) diet.

More info can be found on this here: http://www.extique.com/

The book explains all in detail obviously but I have heard good stuff from people that have used this diet. It basically revolves around getting in ketosis and then cycling carbs.

Paul Stagg
11-24-2003, 08:33 AM
Bruise - Thanks. I'll do some digging if I have time to see what I can come up with.

Do you remember anything quantitative - if the studies showed a level of fat ingestion or loss where the free radical levels became unhealthy?

bradley
11-24-2003, 01:36 PM
Here are some abstracts that I found while looking around on PubMed. While there have been short term studies showing that ketogenic diets are safe, the information regarding long term adherance to the diet is not readily available. Although I think anyone pursuing bodybuilding goals would not desire to stay on such a diet for an extended period of time, due to it's overall catabolic effect on the body.

One must also keep in mind that the first study was performed in in vitro, which would not take into account other substances that could have a beneficial effect (anti-oxidants, etc.).
=============
Free Radic Biol Med. 1998 Dec;25(9):1083-8.


Ketosis (acetoacetate) can generate oxygen radicals and cause increased lipid peroxidation and growth inhibition in human endothelial cells.

Jain SK, Kannan K, Lim G.

Department of Pediatrics, Louisiana State University Medical Center, Shreveport 71103, USA.

Elevated level of cellular lipid peroxidation can increase the incidence of vascular disease. The mechanism by which ketosis causes accelerated cellular damage and vascular disease in diabetes is not known. This study was undertaken to test the hypothesis that elevated levels of ketone bodies increase lipid peroxidation in endothelial cells. Human umbilical venous endothelial cells (HUVEC) were cultured for 24 h at 37 degrees C with ketone bodies (acetoacetate, beta-hydroxybutyrate). Acetoacetate, but not beta-hydroxybutyrate, caused an increase in lipid peroxidation and growth inhibition in cultured HUVEC. To determine whether ketone bodies generate oxygen radicals, studies using cell-free buffered solution were performed. They showed a significant superoxide dismutase (SOD) inhibitable reduction of cytochrome C by acetoacetate, but not by beta-hydroxybutyrate, suggesting the generation of superoxide anion radicals by acetoacetate. Additional studies show that Fe2+ potentiates oxygen radical generation by acetoacetate. Thus, elevated levels of ketone body acetoacetate can generate oxygen radicals and cause lipid peroxidation in endothelial cells, providing a possible mechanism for the increased incidence of vascular disease in diabetes.

PMID: 9870562
==========

Diabetes. 1999 Sep;48(9):1850-5.


Hyperketonemia can increase lipid peroxidation and lower glutathione levels in human erythrocytes in vitro and in type 1 diabetic patients.

Jain SK, McVie R.

Department of Pediatrics, Louisiana State University Medical Center, Shreveport 71130, USA.

Recent studies have suggested that elevated cellular lipid peroxidation may play a role in the development of cellular dysfunction and other complications of diabetes. People with type 1 diabetes frequently encounter elevated levels of the ketone bodies acetoacetate (AA), beta-hydroxybutyrate (BHB), and acetone (ACE). This study was undertaken to test the hypothesis that ketosis might increase lipid peroxidation and lower glutathione (GSH) levels of red blood cells (RBCs) in diabetic patients. This study demonstrates that incubation of AA with normal RBCs in phosphate-buffered saline (37 degrees C for 24 h) resulted in marked GSH depletion, oxidized glutathione accumulation, hydroxyl radical generation, and increased membrane lipid peroxidation. Increases in oxygen radicals and lipid peroxidation and depletion of GSH in RBCs were not observed with BHB or ACE treatments. Similarly, there was a significant generation of superoxide ion radicals even in a cell-free buffer solution of AA, but not in that of BHB. The presence of BHB together with AA did not influence the capacity of AA to generate oxygen radicals in a cell-free solution or the increase in lipid peroxidation of RBCs incubated with AA. The antioxidants vitamin E and N-acetylcysteine (NAC) blocked increase in lipid peroxidation in AA-treated RBCs. To examine the effects of ketone bodies in vivo, studies were performed that showed a significant decrease in GSH and an increase in lipid peroxidation levels in RBCs of hyperketonemic diabetic patients, but not in normoketonemic type 1 diabetic patients, when compared with age-matched normal subjects. This study demonstrates that elevated levels of the ketone body AA can increase lipid peroxidation and lower GSH levels of RBCs in people with type 1 diabetes.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Controlled Clinical Trial

PMID: 10480618
============

as0l0
11-25-2003, 08:58 PM
Originally posted by Hulk
Another variation of a modified keto diet is the NHE (Natural Hormone Enhancement) diet.

More info can be found on this here: http://www.extique.com/

The book explains all in detail obviously but I have heard good stuff from people that have used this diet. It basically revolves around getting in ketosis and then cycling carbs.
i notice on the site it says "don't even think about counting calories". do you agree with that?

Delphi
11-25-2003, 09:03 PM
Originally posted by Spartacus
i remember reading something along those lines concerning the biosphere participants. they lost a lot of weight and this introduced pesticides into their system even though their foods were being grown without. i don't have a reference ofr this, however.

I thought the pesticides were there because they were cheating. They were bringing in food from outside sources too, weren't they?

liftalittle
11-25-2003, 10:32 PM
So I am new on the board but have looked at the forums for awhile now. Thought I would put in my two cents on Ketosis.

So I have followed a pure ketogenic diet for almost a year (starting Jan of 2003 but stopped in Aug and Sept due to a car wreak) and I have not lost any weight at this point but my waist size went from a 36 " to a 32" and is still going down. This was combined with working out regularly (4 times a week). Which means I have shifted a good amount of fat to muscle. Weight = 190. Height = 5' 10"

I have heard may people say that you can not make good gains this way in strength but my DB Flat Bench maximum weight started out at 60 x 3 and is now 110 x 5 so I completely disagree. In fact people I know have asked what I am on. I will admit that I am not running through the workout but after about 2- 3 weeks in ketosis, your body has all the energy you need from fats. So I disagree with Paul about lack of energy but many people/experts do not.

I do not follow atkins because he is kind of full of s**t. Good info on ketosis can be found in a book called 'Protein Power' (AU: Eades). The main reason I think atkins is wrong is that your body can be thought of in terms of equations (sorry, big into math).

Energy(in) to body = Energy(out) of body

Energy(in) is primarily the food you eat + break down of body fat for energy.

Energy(out) is work you do + fat storage (which you may not think of as energy out but you should because it is not as available as carbohydrates are for energy when stored).

Thus, the really important point here is that if you eat to many calories of any kind (fat, protein, carbs) then they can and will get stored as fat. That is why all the people on atkins are not skinny super models (even those who have followed it for years). They in general look normal because they have reached a balance between calories in and calories out. If you believe atkins then they should get super skinny no matter how much they eat. This is completely wrong.

There are several things though that I believe make ketogenic diets superior to other diets.

1. Since you are breaking down fats for energy, your body has a hard time putting fats in to storage. It can but it is like having two guys working on a wall. One ripping it down and another putting it back up. Again, enough fat calories in means that you do not need the guy to be ripping down the wall (fat) so you stabilize. In contrast, on carbs you just need the one guy there ready to be building the wall. You must deplete all carbs in the body plus make enzymes to use stored fat before it can be utilized.

2. By using fats for energy, your body is ready to use fats for fuel and thus when you are calorie deficient then body is in the mode to use fats. In the mode = has produced all the enzymes for maximum fat use. Otherwise, your body wants to use carbs and then has to switch gears to make more of the fat burning enzymes. It can do this but it takes times (i.e. the lag period you feel bad in when starting a ketogenic diet; although you have some fat burning enzyme being made all the time, these enzyme are not turned on fully with carbs present because that would be very wasteful of your body to have unused enzymes laying around).

3. This has not proof but for me and others have had very different (opposite) experiences. Ketosis seems to block muscle breakdown for reasons I do not understand or it stimulates muscle growth. I believe it has something to do with lack of insulin and abundance of glucogen and that there is some biochemistry going on there. I think this is why the CKDand TKD work as well as they do. But again, I have no proof of this but am trying to look in to it now. My own example is look at hunters like big game cats and wolves. They are extremely strong and powerfully muscled but follow strict Ketogenic (meat) diets. The majority of the biochemistry between us and them is the same. I am basing thisi off the animals that have had their genomes sequenced and the huge degree of similarities between us and mouse, canine (partial genome), and cats (partial genomes).

4. This one usually gets laughs but... I am never hungry. I get to eat and eat and eat. In fact, I am probably closer to not wanting to eat any more. Yet when you eat carbs (especially sugars and most especially processed carbs), you are always craving more. Even when you are not really hungry. People can sit down and eat whole cakes and boxes of doughnuts even when they should be full ??!!! I beleive that sugars (and carbs in general )are worse than cocaine for us. Ok, laugh now. The reasons are it is more addictive.

Cocaine rehab has about a 50 - 80% failure rate.
Dieters have a > 90% failure rate.

Cocaine addicts are estimated in the 10s to 100s of thousands.
Obese Americans and those with type 2 diabetes in the millions to 10s of millions.

Treatment cost for cocaine addicts is in the 10s of millions (total).
Treatment cost of overweight Americans 10s - 100s billions. May be more now since these are old CDC numbers.

The number come from the protein power book and the CDC for the years of 2000 and 1999 and Cocain Anonymous. But look up other drugs and compare which is really worse.

Some people blame lack of exercise rather than the food we eat but again, we are a balance of energy(in) and energy(out). Why do so many people eat more than they need. So much more. Why do they not get full?? I say it is because carbs are as addictive as most drugs. Again, if you laugh then ask yourself why do foods rich in carbs taste so "good"? The good taste is a chemical response in your brain the same as pleasure stimulation through dopamine is a chemical response. But why do they taste 'good' and we crave them if they are not addictive. Define addictive for yourself and compare that to how you feel about carbs. How must other feel about carbs if you can look in a mirror and see what a negative impact it has on you.


As far as negative aspect to ketosis. The worst is if you are diabetic and enter ketoacidosis but this is primarily limited to diabetics and I have heard of very few cases from normal people who use ketosis actually entering ketoacidosis. Another possible problem is loss of sodium and potassium due to the diuretic effect of ketosis. Someone died from lack of potassium which is needed for proper timing of your heartbeat. The other problem that no one has really looked at though is that as mentioned ketosis changes some of your body's biochemistry. How this effects all the different prescription drugs relative to a 'normal' body metabolism is still unknown. So far, I have not heard any bad reports about this but I think some drugs may be altered or there metabolism altered (again no medical evidence for this yet).


There are a few other reason that I think ketogenic diets work well but this is probably way too much for now.

bradley
11-26-2003, 02:58 AM
Originally posted by liftalittle
I have heard may people say that you can not make good gains this way in strength but my DB Flat Bench maximum weight started out at 60 x 3 and is now 110 x 5 so I completely disagree. In fact people I know have asked what I am on. I will admit that I am not running through the workout but after about 2- 3 weeks in ketosis, your body has all the energy you need from fats. So I disagree with Paul about lack of energy but many people/experts do not.

People will respond differently to ketosis, but if you were new to training you will make gains regardless of the diet you are following, i.e. newbie gains. The point to consider is that your gains might would have been better had you been following a more balanced approach.



1. Since you are breaking down fats for energy, your body has a hard time putting fats in to storage. It can but it is like having two guys working on a wall. One ripping it down and another putting it back up. Again, enough fat calories in means that you do not need the guy to be ripping down the wall (fat) so you stabilize. In contrast, on carbs you just need the one guy there ready to be building the wall.

In other words you need to be in a calorie deficit, which is true for any diet, not just a keto diet.



You must deplete all carbs in the body plus make enzymes to use stored fat before it can be utilized.

This is not accurate, since I have no problem losing weight and consuming carbs.



2. By using fats for energy, your body is ready to use fats for fuel and thus when you are calorie deficient then body is in the mode to use fats. In the mode = has produced all the enzymes for maximum fat use.

You have to keep in mind that for the same calorie deficit you will see pretty much the same amount of weight lost, regardless of the diet performed (assuming adequate protein and EFAs). Keto diets do not necessarily cause more fat loss than a standard dieting approach.



Otherwise, your body wants to use carbs and then has to switch gears to make more of the fat burning enzymes. It can do this but it takes times (i.e. the lag period you feel bad in when starting a ketogenic diet; although you have some fat burning enzyme being made all the time, these enzyme are not turned on fully with carbs present because that would be very wasteful of your body to have unused enzymes laying around).

The reason that you must adapt to ketosis is due to the brain decreasing it's need for glucose and switching to using ketones for fuel. The enzymes required to burn fat are present regardless of the diet you are following.



3. This has not proof but for me and others have had very different (opposite) experiences. Ketosis seems to block muscle breakdown for reasons I do not understand or it stimulates muscle growth. I believe it has something to do with lack of insulin and abundance of glucogen and that there is some biochemistry going on there. I think this is why the CKDand TKD work as well as they do. But again, I have no proof of this but am trying to look in to it now.

There are some theories, such as decreased glucose requirements, down regulation of the thyroid, but you also decrease the probability that you will gain any muscle since the body is in an overall catabolic state. Hence, the reason that keto diets are usually used when following a hypocaloric diet.



My own example is look at hunters like big game cats and wolves. They are extremely strong and powerfully muscled but follow strict Ketogenic (meat) diets. The majority of the biochemistry between us and them is the same. I am basing thisi off the animals that have had their genomes sequenced and the huge degree of similarities between us and mouse, canine (partial genome), and cats (partial genomes).


The animals you mention are carnivores, where as we are omnivores, and you cannot really compare the two. If you wanted to compare animals, then take a look at a horse. It does not eat any meat and has a high percentage of muscle and low bf levels.



4. This one usually gets laughs but... I am never hungry. I get to eat and eat and eat. In fact, I am probably closer to not wanting to eat any more. Yet when you eat carbs (especially sugars and most especially processed carbs), you are always craving more. Even when you are not really hungry. People can sit down and eat whole cakes and boxes of doughnuts even when they should be full ??!!! I beleive that sugars (and carbs in general )are worse than cocaine for us. Ok, laugh now. The reasons are it is more addictive.

Keto diets do have an appetite blunting effect.



The other problem that no one has really looked at though is that as mentioned ketosis changes some of your body's biochemistry. How this effects all the different prescription drugs relative to a 'normal' body metabolism is still unknown. So far, I have not heard any bad reports about this but I think some drugs may be altered or there metabolism altered (again no medical evidence for this yet).

I have never read anything that would indicate this would be a problem, but that is not really saying much.:)

If ketosis works for you then I say stick with it, but I have yet to see anything that would prove that ketogenic diets are superior to other diets. In the end it comes down to what you can stick with for the duration of the diet.

Spartacus
11-30-2003, 10:28 PM
so there are not any epidemiological studies showing keto diets are safe for long-term use, or at least cronic frequent use?

bradley
12-01-2003, 03:27 AM
Originally posted by Spartacus
so there are not any epidemiological studies showing keto diets are safe for long-term use, or at least cronic frequent use?

I am not aware of any long term studies performed on healthy adults, and the only long term studies that I am aware of were studying epileptic children.

If I remember correctly the Atkins Instistute is currently conducting long term studies on individuals following the Atkins diet, which came about after the positive results of the short term studies.