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fornero
12-09-2003, 09:30 AM
If one were to performing a final "depletion style" workout prior to refeeding, would it be beneficial (with the goal of maximal muscle glycogen depletion) to consume high GI carbs prior to the workout? Or would a simple whey drink be best?

Here's the current diet/training I'm applying this to:

Day 1:
AM: 1/2 body (A) workout; 2x3 sets of 8/ body part, 1/2 body (B) mini depletion (1x2 sets of 15/ part). 30 minutes light cardio
PM: 20 minutes HIIT
Diet: ~1600 cals, 60/10/30 p/c/f

Day2:
AM: 20 mins HIIT (full body eliptical)
PM: ab/core work, 30 mins light cardio
Diet: ~1600 cals, 60/10/30 p/c/f

Day3:
AM: 20 mins HIIT
PM: 1 set of 5 / (A) body parts, full depletion workout (circuits, modified as parts of body become depleted-- ie, can no longer even move the pathetic weights I'll be using)
Diet: ~800 cals before workout, 6hr refeed after

(Day4-6: repeat day1-3 swapping (A) with (B))

Day7: Rest
Diet: ~1800 cals/ isocaloric

Stats: 5'10", ~145lbs, ~6% bf

Shao-LiN
12-09-2003, 12:51 PM
Wow, 5 cardio sessions in 2 days....I don't think I could stand that, hehe.

bradley
12-09-2003, 01:37 PM
If one were to performing a final "depletion style" workout prior to refeeding, would it be beneficial (with the goal of maximal muscle glycogen depletion) to consume high GI carbs prior to the workout? Or would a simple whey drink be best?


Another refeed question, hmmmm.:D

I do know that Lyle recommends taking in a small amount of carbs prior to the depletion workout in his keto book, in order to achieve glycogen supercompensation. I would think this would apply here as well.

Try running a search on glycogen supercompensation and see what turns up. Let me know if you have more specific questions. BTW, are you still performing the long refeed on Saturday?

IronDaddy
12-09-2003, 04:08 PM
I believe Lyle says sucrose or fructose are the foods of choice for the workout right before reload.

fornero
12-09-2003, 05:32 PM
Wow, 5 cardio sessions in 2 days....I don't think I could stand that, hehe.

Perhaps a bit much, but I'm still fine tuning this. The HIIT sessions are the important thing IMO, as far as glycogen depletion goes, so I'd really like to keep them in (this morning's (day2) was rough, but doable-- we'll see about tomorrow's). I came into the week (refed on Saturday, isocaloric/rest on Sunday) somewhat bloated and "puffy" at 148lbs, and as of tonight I'm a cut (but flat) 140; so the HIIT really seems to be doing the trick.

As for the light cardio-- I could do that all day; just grab a book/article/magazine and zone out. I like having it there to improve a little on the caloric deficit during the diet days.


Another refeed question, hmmmm.:D

I do know that Lyle recommends taking in a small amount of carbs prior to the depletion workout in his keto book, in order to achieve glycogen supercompensation. I would think this would apply here as well.

Try running a search on glycogen supercompensation and see what turns up. Let me know if you have more specific questions. BTW, are you still performing the long refeed on Saturday?

Refeed question? Me? ;)

As of now, the plan is to do another 6 hr refeed on Saturday, and then go isocaloric/rest on Sunday (with slightly higher calories than on diet days). I don't think 2 days hypocaloric/depleting are enough to drop glycogen stores to the point that 12 hrs would be necessary.

That being said, I think it'll depend on how I feel Thursday/Saturday morning. If I'm feeling weak/etc after Wednesday's refeed, I'll likely do a full 12 hrs Saturday-- same deal if I feel like ass Saturday morning (I'll just do the workout earlier in the day and then start the refeed).

Thoughts?

fornero
12-09-2003, 05:50 PM
I believe Lyle says sucrose or fructose are the foods of choice for the workout right before reload.

Well, on a CKD you're supposed to take in fructose (sucrose is 1/2 fructose) to slightly refill liver glycogen and kick yourself out of ketosis (so you stop burning fat for fuel, and use the remainder of your glycogen).

I don't, however, expect to be in ketosis (ketogenic ratio is too low due to high protein intake), so I don't think fructose would be the way to go (tho I could possibly be depleted enough that the AM HIIT will kick me into ketosis...). I believe in UD 2.0 (ya, still haven't gotten around to ordering that just yet) Lyle recommends somewhere in the realm of 20g c, 15g p before the workout preceeding the refeed, but it's a tension workout, not a depletion one (and while I will be incorperating some hypertrophy inducing movements, in the form of the 1x5 rep sets, I don't think there's long enough TUT for them to be very glycogen taxing).

I'm leaning towards a simple 20-25g of whey (or whey & egg) so that I have some aminos floating about in my system to blunt any muscle catabolism that may occur. I think any carb intake would simply increase the amount of work needed for full depletion.

bradley
12-10-2003, 02:08 AM
As of now, the plan is to do another 6 hr refeed on Saturday, and then go isocaloric/rest on Sunday (with slightly higher calories than on diet days). I don't think 2 days hypocaloric/depleting are enough to drop glycogen stores to the point that 12 hrs would be necessary.

That being said, I think it'll depend on how I feel Thursday/Saturday morning. If I'm feeling weak/etc after Wednesday's refeed, I'll likely do a full 12 hrs Saturday-- same deal if I feel like ass Saturday morning (I'll just do the workout earlier in the day and then start the refeed).

Thoughts?

I think what you have outlined above would work just fine, and going by how your body feels is probably the best way to judge the length of the refeed.



Well, on a CKD you're supposed to take in fructose (sucrose is 1/2 fructose) to slightly refill liver glycogen and kick yourself out of ketosis (so you stop burning fat for fuel, and use the remainder of your glycogen).

I don't, however, expect to be in ketosis (ketogenic ratio is too low due to high protein intake), so I don't think fructose would be the way to go (tho I could possibly be depleted enough that the AM HIIT will kick me into ketosis...). I believe in UD 2.0 (ya, still haven't gotten around to ordering that just yet) Lyle recommends somewhere in the realm of 20g c, 15g p before the workout preceeding the refeed, but it's a tension workout, not a depletion one (and while I will be incorperating some hypertrophy inducing movements, in the form of the 1x5 rep sets, I don't think there's long enough TUT for them to be very glycogen taxing).

I'm leaning towards a simple 20-25g of whey (or whey & egg) so that I have some aminos floating about in my system to blunt any muscle catabolism that may occur. I think any carb intake would simply increase the amount of work needed for full depletion.

I think a small amount of carbs immediately before training would work just fine, since I do not think that you would see any significant amount of glycogen repletion during the training session. You could think of it as a TKD approach, in which the carbs are consumed in the hopes that they will aid in post workout recovery.

IronDaddy
12-10-2003, 12:20 PM
Well, on a CKD you're supposed to take in fructose (sucrose is 1/2 fructose) to slightly refill liver glycogen and kick yourself out of ketosis (so you stop burning fat for fuel, and use the remainder of your glycogen).

Actually even though UD2 is a CKD it is not concerned w/ ketosis. While it does lower the carb intakes it should not be enough to place someone into ketosis but, you are right the workout is aimed at finishing off glycogen before carb load.

Shao-LiN
12-10-2003, 01:06 PM
UD2 is similar in style to the CKD in that it is a cyclical diet, but it is not a CKD. For one thing, like you said, you aren't concerned with ketosis. There are a few other differences that set it apart from a CKD.

But back to the original topic. Lyle suggests in UD2 a malto/fructose blend in the final depletion workout before refeed in order to refill liver glycogen. Since you aren't concerned with ketosis in UD2, then I don't think it matters whether or not you intend to be in ketosis or not.

bradley
12-10-2003, 01:37 PM
Making sure the liver is in a fed state will help in shifting the body into a more anabolic state.