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windwork
01-08-2004, 01:03 PM
Hi
I am new
5'4.5"
92 pounds

I am looking to gain weight
I know I need at least 2500 calories cuz i'm a teenager and cant grow normally without this much.
Checking my diet, I am taking in about 700-1000 +/- per day for the past year or so, thats why my body is in a skinny condition.

Ok. To gain, I am thinking about taking 3000 calories

3000 calories to gain for 1 week (to see what happens)
(55%) 1700 carbs = 425g
(30%) 900 fat = 100g
(15%) 400 protein =100g

Is this a good idea or what?
If I do 92x20 it equals 1840 calories, which I know I will not grow from so I am thinking of starting from 3000 calories.
Also, I know teenagers need at least 2500 calories to grow normally so 1840 will not get me the results.

Please give me helpful advice. Thank you.

Jasonl
01-08-2004, 01:51 PM
Well 3000 cals might be too much, it could just lead to excess fat gain. Give 2500 a try and see what that gets you after a week, you should be gaining about .5lb/week. Another piece of advice would be to cut those carbs back a bit and possbily up your protien 30-40grams a day. Maybe a little less fat, too.

Saint Patrick
01-08-2004, 01:54 PM
:withstupi

ElPietro
01-08-2004, 02:02 PM
Yeah your diet is not all that balanced. You will have the energy to train with those carbs, but possibly not enough of the two macros responsible for actual lean mass gain. I would focus more on fat and protein for anabolism, and keep carbs somewhat in check, so long as you aren't feeling too drained.

Although, at 92 freaking pounds, I'd just eat anything I could up until I felt like puking, and then wait for that sensation to go away and eat some more. Try to get a good meal or shake in before bed as well if you can. Or at least a couple glasses of milk. I used to take a tablespoon of olive oil before bed for a while, good source of fat.

defcon
01-08-2004, 02:11 PM
Im with that stupid st.patrick fellow.. who claims to be with sum other guy.. try 2500 :P that is like.. 26 times your weight.. holy cow lol.

windwork
01-08-2004, 02:35 PM
Ok thank you for the suggestions

How is this:
2500 gain for 1 week (to see what happens)
(54%) 1350cals carbs 337.5g
(30%) 750cals fats 83g
(16%) 400cals pro 100g

windwork
01-08-2004, 02:37 PM
I will definitely use olive oil before bed. thanks for the suggestion

ericg
01-08-2004, 02:59 PM
I think you need to cut back on those carbs even more. IMHO if I were to be on a clean bulking diet I would shoot for an even split in the cals all the way down the line:

(33%) 825cals carbos 206
(33%) 825cals protein 206
(33%) 825cals fat 92

ericg
01-08-2004, 02:59 PM
Oh yeah, and make sure those are the "healthy fats".

windwork
01-08-2004, 03:52 PM
Thank you ericg

I live in canada, and unfortunately, I dont have the money to buy a lot of protein.
I am using 2 tuna cans for 60g protein and dont know how to get the rest

I dont want to use egg whites because they are more expensive than tuna cans.
I really want a protein tub.

Saint Patrick
01-08-2004, 05:42 PM
Im with that stupid st.patrick fellow.. who claims to be with sum other guy

:withstupi


Damn, yeah I just realized that's like BW x 25

Jasonl
01-08-2004, 05:52 PM
Thank you ericg

I live in canada, and unfortunately, I dont have the money to buy a lot of protein.
I am using 2 tuna cans for 60g protein and dont know how to get the rest

I dont want to use egg whites because they are more expensive than tuna cans.
I really want a protein tub.
Click on that large ad on the top of the page.:)

smalls
01-08-2004, 05:59 PM
Milk is a good source as well, and not too expensive.

windwork
01-08-2004, 11:35 PM
I cannot order from the US to Canada because there are taxes and other charges involved.

Thanks for the input on milk

ElPietro
01-09-2004, 07:30 AM
If you wish to order from canada use www.sndcanada.com

No other place can beat their prices, and they will deliver your product within 2 days generally. I orderd at 3pm on tuesday and my shipment was at my workplace at 9:30am on wednesday. Shipping charges are only $5 total, and are waived completely if you order $100 or more, which is easy to do.

windwork
01-09-2004, 01:13 PM
thank you very much.
have u found any protein powder that does not cause gas?

or do you know any good meal replacement supplement?

which protein powder/meal replacement supplement do u use?
thanks

ElPietro
01-09-2004, 01:50 PM
I was using the EAS Simply protein, but just ordered a 5lb tub of Designer Whey. Both of those are pretty cheap and mix well. Generally I just take a bottle with a scoop of whey powder in it to the gym, and when I'm done fill it with water to make my shake. Also, post workout I'll add some form of carb powder as well. But it's not THAT crucial.

I don't know if it's the powder itself, or the increased protein intake that causes gas, but I think that it will settle down a bit once your body is adjusted to the diet.

I don't use meal replacements too often, but if you want one, I used to use Labrada Lean Body packets. They were a low carb option and tasted damn good. I think they have a non-low carb version, which may even taste better. But these things when I made them tasted like some kinda smoothy drink I'd buy at a bar. They have a tropical pack which all flavours are amazing, as well as the strawberry and chocolate ones are good.

windwork
01-09-2004, 02:10 PM
thank you.
I dont have a credit card so i think I cannot buy from SND unless I get a credit card, which I might get from the bank
I read their website, I dont think they accept money orders

I can buy EAS Simply protein from the store 5pounds for $56 WITH the discount card, so i might go with that option.
But SND seems much better especially because they will deliver and i wont have to go out and spend the calories walking :P
besides, their prices are much better especially with free delivery
and if anyone orders over $200 they get a 5% discount! cool!

thanks for the information on labrada lean body and all the other info u have shared

ElPietro
01-09-2004, 02:30 PM
I am almost 100% sure they accept money orders. When you go to checkout it will ask you which option you want to use.

Actually, here, I just went and tried to purchase something. After I checked out, and logged in, you have to fill in your shipping info and then it gives you the option of credit card or money order. Although, no personal cheques are allowed.

They should list this in their FAQ section, as they only list credit card as payment options even though they accept money orders. Hope that helped you out.

ElPietro
01-09-2004, 02:31 PM
Oh and they generally always give you something free with your order as well. This time I ordered just over $200, so I got 5% off, and they gave me a free SND t-shirt. Usually I get a free protein bar or something like that.

aka23
01-09-2004, 03:13 PM
Hi
I am new
5'4.5"
92 pounds

3000 calories to gain for 1 week (to see what happens)
(55%) 1700 carbs = 425g
(30%) 900 fat = 100g
(15%) 400 protein =100g

I am using 2 tuna cans for 60g protein and dont know how to get the rest.

If I subtract out the 2 cans tuna from the total above and assume they are ~100% protein, that leaves the following for the remainder of your diet:
2760 calories
Protein: 40g -- 5.8%
Fat: 100g -- 32.7%
Carbs: 425g -- 61.6%

I suspect that, if you listed your proposed diet into fitday.com , you would find that the remaining 2760 calories had a lot more than 40g protein, so you would be significantly above 100g protein per day.

The whole protein issue is likely to be a moot point as 100g works out to 2.4g/kg. There have been many studies of the protein needs of weightlifters. Such studies have results ranging from about .9g/kg to 2g/kg depending on the study used, significantly below your proposed total. Some examples of such studies are below:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9841962&dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1400008&dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3356636&dopt=Abstract

Eating far more protein than you need is very unlikely to make you grow muscle faster. If anything it might have a small negative effect since eating a larger percentage of calories from proteins would increase your caloric requirements due to issues such as TEF and thermogenesis. In addition, maintaining a high carb/protein increases insulin (insulin is anti-catabolic ), IGF-1, testosterone levels, and free testosterone balance as indicated in the following studies, articles, and discussions:

http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/82/1/49
http://www.thinkmuscle.com/articles/incledon/diet-01.htm
http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=12;t=7
http://forum.avantlabs.com/index.php?act=ST&f=4&t=1165

I would focus on increasing calories until you are gaining weight at your desired weight and aim for 1g/lb protein or more. You can get your calories from protein powders, tuna, or carbs; but the important thing is to increase your calories. More detailed information about nutrition requirements can be found at http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=13;t=23

Woz
01-09-2004, 03:30 PM
I really don't see how anyone can suddenly start eating double or as first mentioned, treble! their calories. You might be able to eat twice as much for your first meal but after that you will probably not feel hungry until way past the time of your next planned feed. You will need to add calories slowly. If you have only been eating 1000 a day then just add 200 a day to begin with and see how you go. The olive oil is a good idea for adding calories.

ElPietro
01-09-2004, 06:26 PM
I really don't see how anyone can suddenly start eating double or as first mentioned, treble! their calories. You might be able to eat twice as much for your first meal but after that you will probably not feel hungry until way past the time of your next planned feed. You will need to add calories slowly. If you have only been eating 1000 a day then just add 200 a day to begin with and see how you go. The olive oil is a good idea for adding calories.

That's why I just suggested he eat when he can, as often as he can. Sometimes it's easy to plan a diet on paper, but hard to get all those calories into you when it comes time. So just try to remember to always keep something edible handy, and when you feel like you can eat, do it. This shouldn't be too hard on him, as long as it isn't a whole bunch of super calorie dense fast food.

I know when I eat clean, it's often difficult for me to eat enough calories.

windwork
01-10-2004, 01:35 PM
If I subtract out the 2 cans tuna from the total above and assume they are ~100% protein, that leaves the following for the remainder of your diet:
2760 calories
Protein: 40g -- 5.8%
Fat: 100g -- 32.7%
Carbs: 425g -- 61.6%

I suspect that, if you listed your proposed diet into fitday.com , you would find that the remaining 2760 calories had a lot more than 40g protein, so you would be significantly above 100g protein per day.

The whole protein issue is likely to be a moot point as 100g works out to 2.4g/kg. There have been many studies of the protein needs of weightlifters. Such studies have results ranging from about .9kg/lb to 2kg/lb depending on the study used, significantly below your proposed total. Some examples of such studies are below:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9841962&dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1400008&dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3356636&dopt=Abstract

Eating far more protein than you need is very unlikely to make you grow muscle faster. If anything it might have a small negative effect since eating a larger percentage of calories from proteins would increase your caloric requirements due to issues such as TEF and thermogenesis. In addition, maintaining a high carb/protein increases insulin (insulin is anti-catabolic ), IGF-1, testosterone levels, and free testosterone balance as indicated in the following studies, articles, and discussions:

http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/82/1/49
http://www.thinkmuscle.com/articles/incledon/diet-01.htm
http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=12;t=7
http://forum.avantlabs.com/index.php?act=ST&f=4&t=1165

I would focus on increasing calories until you are gaining weight at your desired weight and aim for 1g/lb protein or more. You can get your calories from protein powders, tuna, or carbs; but the important thing is to increase your calories. More detailed information about nutrition requirements can be found at http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=13;t=23


Hi
Thank you for writing such a detailed post
I am still reading the information in the links provided. It has been great. Thanks.

windwork
01-10-2004, 01:44 PM
You can get your calories from protein powders, tuna, or carbs


I went in fitday and I will be eating rice, and rice has protein ... about 12grams for 2 cups of cooked rice (1 cup uncooked)
so those protein also count or only 'high quality' sources count?

i just want to know if rice protein counts towards my 15% protein intake.

windwork
01-10-2004, 01:46 PM
i will soon post my whole diet with everything i eat and at what times. I am going to eat something right now, and when i return i will make the diet and post it

aka23
01-10-2004, 02:01 PM
I went in fitday and I will be eating rice, and rice has protein ... about 12grams for 2 cups of cooked rice (1 cup uncooked)
so those protein also count or only 'high quality' sources count?

i just want to know if rice protein counts towards my 15% protein intake.

Yes, I think you should count all protein sources. But I also think it is helpful to include a good amount of animal protein sources in your diet.

There are ~20 amino acids in the protein of foods. ~10 of these are essential, meaning that the body cannot manufacture them and they must be obtained from foods. Just about every food with protein contains all of these essential amino acids. However, the ratio of these amino acids is usually not exactly what the human body needs. Proteins in animal foods are usually closer to a human ideal than proteins in plant foods, so the body has fewer left over amino acids.

A person could still obtain all of their protein from a single "incomplete" plant product. This would just be an inefficient way of doing things. They would require extra protein, so that they received enough of the limiting amino acid. In grains, this limiting amino acid is usally lysine or isoleucine. In beans, this limiting amino acid is usually methionine. In vegetables, it is usually methionine or isoleucine. Animal products like beef and milk also have limiting amino acids, but these are usually ignored since they are closer to the ideal human profile.

Nutritionists sometimes encourage vegetarians who do not consume much protein to combine foods with different limiting amino acids, so that they can get by with less protein. A balanced diet should do this automatically since different food groups have different limiting amino acids. The body is quite good at storing limiting amino acids, so complimentary foods do not need to be eaten at the same meal, but they do need to be combined in the same day.

I think that none of the above should be a concern for people with a decent intake of protein (1g/lb) and a somewhat balanced diet. Essential amino acid requirements for humans are not very high, and most foods contain more than needed. I think complementary amino acids rarely need to be a concern unless you have a low protein or calorie intake and you have a poorly balanced diet (nearly all protein coming from a single type of "incomplete" source). This type of diet is common is some third world countries, but is uncommon for participants on this messageboard.

More detailed information and references can be found in the article at http://www.thinkmuscle.com/articles/mcdonald/protein-01.htm . Here are some quotes:

"In the past, dietary proteins were classified as complete, meaning that all indispensable AAs were present ; or incomplete, meaning that one or more of the indispensable AAs was absent. However, with few exceptions (e.g. gelatin) every dietary protein contains all of the AAs in varying amounts. This means that the concept of 'complete' and 'incomplete' proteins is incorrect."

"In general, limiting AAs should be a non-issue unless an individual is consuming all of their protein from a single source, and only if that source is a poor quality protein to begin with. "

windwork
01-10-2004, 03:01 PM
Hi
I am following this article you sent (Gaining muscle mass section)
http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=13;t=23

Quotes are from the article above:

calories:
---------
"Calories should be high. Take bodyweight and multiply it by 18 or 20 depending on fat gain."

92 x 20 = 1840 (gain)

protein:
---------
"So, if a skinny guy wants to gain weight, he needs to plan a diet where he gets 15% of his calories from protein.
Now this may seem contradictory to the general rule of 1 gram per pound bodyweight. I'm not saying that a guy can't gain weight with more than 15% calories from protein, I'm only saying that weight gain is greatest at 15%. He will be ok with an intake of 0.75 grams/pound FFM to gain muscle. In fact, everybody should use FFM instead of bodyweight to plan protein intake, but sometimes it's just too hard to figure it out, so most people use bodyweight."

15% protein
276 protein calories = 69g

fat:
----
"Your diet can effect Test and IGFBPs. IGFBPs dictate how much IGF-1 is actually available for your body. Too much protein relative will lower insulin, and thus available IGF-1 and free test levels. Too little fat will also lower test levels. Keeping fat at 30% of total calories is optimum for testosterone."

30% fat
552 fat calories = 61.3g
(some saturates, the rest monounsaturates and PUFA)


carbs:
------
55%
1012 carb calories = 253g

SO do you think this is okay:

92 x 20 = 1840 (gain)

15% protein
30% fat
55% carbohydrate

1012 carb = 253g
552 fat.. = 61.3g
276 pro.. = 69g

should i base my diet upon the above or change stuff around?

windwork
01-10-2004, 03:11 PM
Yes, I think you should count all protein sources. But I also think it is helpful to include a good amount of animal protein sources in your diet.

There are ~20 amino acids in the protein of foods. ~10 of these are essential, meaning that the body cannot manufacture them and they must be obtained from foods. Just about every food with protein contains all of these essential amino acids. However, the ratio of these amino acids is usually not exactly what the human body needs. Proteins in animal foods are usually closer to a human ideal than proteins in plant foods, so the body has fewer left over amino acids.

A person could still obtain all of their protein from a single "incomplete" plant product. This would just be an inefficient way of doing things. They would require extra protein, so that they received enough of the limiting amino acid. In grains, this limiting amino acid is usally lysine or isoleucine. In beans, this limiting amino acid is usually methionine. In vegetables, it is usually methionine or isoleucine. Animal products like beef and milk also have limiting amino acids, but these are usually ignored since they are closer to the ideal human profile.

Nutritionists sometimes encourage vegetarians who do not consume much protein to combine foods with different limiting amino acids, so that they can get by with less protein. A balanced diet should do this automatically since different food groups have different limiting amino acids. The body is quite good at storing limiting amino acids, so complimentary foods do not need to be eaten at the same meal, but they do need to be combined in the same day.

I think that none of the above should be a concern for people with a decent intake of protein (1g/lb) and a somewhat balanced diet. Essential amino acid requirements for humans are not very high, and most foods contain more than needed. I think complementary amino acids rarely need to be a concern unless you have a low protein or calorie intake and you have a poorly balanced diet (nearly all protein coming from a single type of "incomplete" source). This type of diet is common is some third world countries, but is uncommon for participants on this messageboard.

More detailed information and references can be found in the article at http://www.thinkmuscle.com/articles/mcdonald/protein-01.htm . Here are some quotes:

"In the past, dietary proteins were classified as complete, meaning that all indispensable AAs were present ; or incomplete, meaning that one or more of the indispensable AAs was absent. However, with few exceptions (e.g. gelatin) every dietary protein contains all of the AAs in varying amounts. This means that the concept of 'complete' and 'incomplete' proteins is incorrect."

"In general, limiting AAs should be a non-issue unless an individual is consuming all of their protein from a single source, and only if that source is a poor quality protein to begin with. "

Thank you!!
I will get my protein from fish and animals mostly and rice will have some protein in it and mostly carbs.

I was reading some forum posts from the website u posted in your earlier posts (not the one above):
http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=12;t=7;st=20

"I'm with BIZ, I take 1 gram/pd LBM plus a little extra at the moment to test any increased benefit. So far, it's not looking good for my local protein supplier!
"

"Im pretty secure now that the 140g (1g/lbm) I have been taking in is about right for dieting or building and I just need to adjust carbs and fat to whatever goal."

what do you suggest for the PCF ratio and the amount of calories? Do u think I did mine right or something should be changed, like protien to 20% or anything else?

Thanks for the article in the post above, I am reading part 1.

aka23
01-10-2004, 03:29 PM
The quote you posted suggested a minimum protein intake of .75g/lb Fat Free Mass. The amount of protein you listed (69g) would be under this limit. I would suggest aiming higher, especially since at your age you may still be growing. 1g/lb is a common recommendation. Your earlier post mentioned 2 cans of tuna per day. If you eat 2 cans of tuna per day or an equivalent amount of other animal products, you will amost certainly get more protein than you listed and will likely get enough to meet minimum requirements. Calorie formulas only provide a rough estimate and do not work well for a large portion of the population. I would suggest slowly incrementing calories until your are gaining at your desired rate.

windwork
01-10-2004, 04:07 PM
Thanks for information. It is VERY helpful.

I will create my diet soon when I return.
I am going outside for a while.
So when I return I will post my diet with 1g/lb protein, 30% fat, and rest carbohydrates.

I will post my diet with what i will eat at what times, post workout and preworkout as well.

Do you have suggestions for post workout / preworkout?
I also want to run in the mornings before sunrise to get in some fresh oxygen so is that okay or should i avoid cardio during gaining?

windwork
01-10-2004, 10:48 PM
Total: 2200
Fat: 57g 513 26%
Sat: 8g 72 4%
Poly: 6g 53 3%
Mono: 40g 362 18%
Carbs: 288g 1108 55%
Fiber: 11g 0 0%
Protein: 94g 376 19%

This is from fitday, and I will start with this, and increase it up after using the above for a week or so
i will be doing level 7 intensity cardio for 20 mins daily for oxygen so I dont think I will start gaining massive amounts of fat with the above diet.

I will make this into a meal plan soon.
I know PUFA are lacking at only 6g, but I am planning to buy almond oil for that or safflower oil. Changing the oils will be easy because I will substitute olive oil for another oil.

windwork
01-10-2004, 11:09 PM
Hi, this is my meal plan for tommorow, and I can change it.

Basically I will cook these and eat them throughout the day:

(cooked):
Rice 2 cups/day (4 cups cooked) = 1360 cals, 0g fat, 272g carb, 24g pro
tuna 2 cans = 276 cals, 2g fat, 0g carb, 61g protein

(steamed):
Broccoli 3.5 cups/day = 86 cals, 1g fat, 16g carb, 9g protein

(uncooked):
olive oil 4tbsp = 477 cals, 54g fat, 0g carb, 0g protein

meal 1: wakeup
rice
tuna
broccoli
1 lemon (2 water)

exercise +30mins after

meal 2: +45mins after
rice
tuna
broccoli
1 lemon (2 water)

meal 3: +3 hour after
rice
tuna
broccoli
1 olive oil
1 lemon (2 water)

meal 4: + 3 hour
rice
tuna
broccoli
1 olive oil
(2 water)

meal 5: + 3 hour
rice
tuna
broccoli
1 olive oil
(2 water)

meal 6: + 3 hour
rice
tuna
broccoli
1 olive oil
psyllium husk (1 water)

before bed: + 1 hour after
zinc 30mg