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View Full Version : Realistically, how benificial is a post-workout protein shake?



Exnor
02-24-2004, 08:27 AM
I have heard many different stories. Some people I have spoken to even say its not at all benificial directly post workout, and that you should eat something with carbs in it, then a protein rich meal an hour later.

From what I know, the body is more suseptable to absorbing protein just after working out. Is this true? And if so - to what extent?

Isaac Wilkins
02-24-2004, 08:29 AM
I would actually consider pre-workout nutrition to be more important. Remember, you have digestion/gastric emptying to deal with.

pruneman
02-24-2004, 08:34 AM
PWO nutrition is very important. Somebody correct me if i'm wrong, but muscles are able to store more glucose as glycogen immediately PWO. Therefore high GI carbs are very useful. Ingesting a quickly digested protein such as whey will increase the level of free amino acids. The high GI carbs create an insuline spike. Insuline is an anabolic hormone and signals the storage of glucose as glycogen and the synthesis of other cellular macromolecules (eg protein). The carbs would replentish muscle glycogen and cause an insuline spike. The fast acting protein would provide the AAs for anabolism. My conclusion would be that a PWO shake of something like dextrose/whey would be ideal. Hope that was helpful.

-prune

TheGimp
02-24-2004, 08:55 AM
Check out aka's post in this thread here:

http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=41845

The important part being Tipton's quote:


If you took two groups and had one go through all these motions (pre and/or post-workout protein shake) and the other not, and everything else was the same, the first group might show a difference in muscle mass after maybe 2 years.

Spartacus
02-24-2004, 09:26 AM
that would probably apply to EVERY thing we worry about except "lifting heavy weights" and "getting enough protien"

chris mason
02-24-2004, 10:07 AM
What Borris said. If you are normal trainee eating plenty calories throughout the day your body is constantly digesting food. What you ate for breakfast may not actually get into the bloodstream for 3,4,5, or even more hours.

Yes, the body cells will be more apt to absorb nutrients immediately post-workout, thus the idea of post-workout nutrition. The flaw in that thought process is that the body is devoid of circulating nutrients after a workout. It is not as though your blood sugar levels are 0 post workout. Nor are your blood amino acid levels assuming you ate anything in the several hours prior to your workout.

Just make sure you get plenty of protein and carbs throughout the day and don't worry about pre or post-workout nutrition to any great degree.

geoffgarcia
02-24-2004, 10:22 AM
Formerly, it was believed that the best an athlete could do rebuild protein after exercise was to ingest protein soon after completing exercise. However, newer research indicates that post-exercise protein synthesis is increased when protein and/or amino acids are consumed with carbohydrate during exercise. In a study done at the University of Texas Medical Branch in Galveston, subjects were given an amino acid-carbohydrate supplement either immediately before or immediately after a workout. Arteriovenous catheterization and muscle biopsies were used to determine the rate of amino acid uptake by the leg muscles. The researchers found that amino acid uptake was significantly greater both during and for the first hour after the workout for those who took the supplement before exercising.

The apparent reason for this result was that drinking the amino acid-carbohydrate drink before the workout resulted in higher blood insulin levels during the workout. Insulin is known to counteract the catabolic effect of cortisol. With greater amounts of insulin circulating to neutralize cortisol, the subjects who drank before working out were able to get more amino acids delivered to their muscle cells to rebuild proteins. (Tipton, 2001)

A study performed at St. Cloud University demonstrated that carbohydrate-protein recovery drinks also significantly reduce post-exercise muscle tissue stress. Ten college age males and females ingested a sports drink containing carbohydrate and protein in a 4:1 ratio or a 6% carbohydrate beverage in a double blind, counterbalanced design. Subjects completed a 45-minute run, rested in a 10-minute transition, cycled for 90 minutes, and then performed a 90K time trial (TT). Each sport drink was ingested during the transition (360 ml) and 30 minutes into the bike segment (180 ml). Blood samples were collected 24 hours later and analyzed for creatine kinase, which is frequently used as an indicator of muscle stress and damage. The carbohydrate-protein group showed a significant reduction of 36% for the 24-hour post-exercise creatine kinase level, suggesting that by providing amino acids in addition to carbohydrate, the 4:1 drink helped maintain cell membrane integrity.
http://www.poweringmuscles.com/musclerecovery.asp?article_number=4




Recovery Nutrition
Susan M. Kleiner, Ph.D., R.D.
Studies indicate that eating 1-1.5 grams of carbohydrate per kilogram body weight (0.45-0.68 g/lb.) within 2 hours post-exercise will enhance muscle glycogen replenishment (the storage form of carbohydrate). The immediate and high intake of carbohydrates stimulates secretion of insulin, whose job it is to put carbohydrates into storage. High-glycemic index carbohydrates (dextrose, sucrose, some maltodextrins) appear to maximize the insulin response. This is important since the more muscle glycogen that you replace, the more energy you'll have for your next workout.

Combining 0.5 gram of protein per kilogram body weight (0.23 g/lb.) with carbohydrate after exercise may further enhance the insulin response, increasing muscle glycogen storage. Also, having the essential amino acids readily available may help with protein synthesis and enhance tissue growth and repair. This means that whatever damage was done to your tissues as a result of intense exercise, it may be repaired more quickly. And, you might even get a greater muscle-building effect.
http://www.powereating.com/tom/030102.html



In an investigation of this issue by the Life Science Research Office (LSRO) of the Federation of American Societies for Experimental Biology, many problems were reported:
Investigators found that labeling of protein supplements is often inadequate...

No firm data regarding the occurrence of side effects were presented, but reference was made to the potential effects of excessive protein intake, such as dehydration secondary to high urea excretion, gout, liver and kidney damage, calcium loss, bloating, and diarrhea...
__________________
Results of a study by Gontzea et al (3) showed that normal individuals who ate a diet containing a constant amount of nitrogen and who were in nitrogen balance in daily life went into negative nitrogen balance for almost 2 wk after starting an exercise program (Figure 1). However, after the initial 2-wk period, they could maintain nitrogen balance during training without increasing nitrogen intake. This study has been widely cited as evidence that physical activity increases protein requirements, and thus as support for the utility of protein supplements. However, an alternative interpretation of these data is possible. Because most physically active individuals have a rather consistent pattern of exercise, the stability of the nitrogen balance after the initial period of adaptation to exercise indicates that nitrogen balance can be maintained quite well without a change in protein intake in individuals who are chronically physically active.
_____________________________
Meredith et al (4) used another approach to study the effect of exercise on nitrogen balance in both young and older persons who consumed 1 of 3 different protein intakes (Figure 2). For each individual, investigators connected the data points to determine where they crossed the zero balance line to determine the average protein requirement in exercising individuals. The average requirement was 0.94 gkg-1d-1, which was somewhat above the recommended dietary allowance (RDA) of 0.8 gkg-1d-1. Of course, if an individual is trying to increase lean body mass, the goal is not zero balance but to have nitrogen balance as high (positive) as possible. Thus, these data could also be used to support the contention that protein supplementation above the RDA can markedly improve nitrogen balance in exercising individuals, regardless of age.
_________________________________________________
The role of energy balance in determining nitrogen balance is of great importance in evaluating the effect of exercise, because exercise can certainly modify energy balance. The amount of energy that is sufficient to maintain nitrogen balance in the resting state is likely to be insufficient when energy expenditure increases with the onset of exercise. The importance of energy expenditure on nitrogen balance is shown in Figure 3. These data show that regardless of the amount of nitrogen intake, nitrogen balance improves as energy intake increases. Butterfield and Calloway (6) also reported these findings in exercising individuals. In this complex study, subjects were given varying energy and protein intakes. The results clearly indicated that energy balance may be equally or more important than nitrogen intake as a determinant of nitrogen balance.

A strong theoretical basis exists for expecting a beneficial effect of a protein supplement in active people. Amino acid intake stimulates the transport of amino acids into muscle, and there is a direct link between amino acid inward transport and muscle protein synthesis. However, some experimental data suggest that exercise may actually decrease the protein requirements necessary to maintain balance. Nevertheless, it can be speculated that a protein supplement should be useful to stimulate net muscle protein synthesis, particularly if the supplement has the optimal proportion of individual amino acids. However, experiments have yet to be performed that document such a beneficial effect of protein supplements.
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/72/2/551S

Paladyr
02-24-2004, 11:20 AM
So something like gatorade/whey protein would be good both before and after a workout???

Exnor
03-09-2004, 09:19 AM
Thanks for the information. Sorry for the late reply, I actually forgot about this thread.

My pre-workout nutrition is not very good as it stands, I do not eat anything directly before a workout (more like 1.5-2 hours before, a meal focusing in low GI carbs). Perhaps I should consider taking in carbs closer to pre-workout.

Directly before and during the beginning of yesterdays workout I drank a bottle of lucozade. I have been increasing my volume lately and found my recovery time between sets was shorter than usual. This could just be coincidence or mental.

Shao-LiN
03-09-2004, 12:04 PM
I just keep it simple and chug a protein shake w/ some carbs maybe 45 minutes pre-workout and another protein/carb drink post. Some people preach only carbs post and protein an hour later or whatever...there's a point where I draw the line at how anal I am about workout nutrition, hehe.

EdgarMex
03-09-2004, 12:25 PM
What Borris said. If you are normal trainee eating plenty calories throughout the day your body is constantly digesting food. What you ate for breakfast may not actually get into the bloodstream for 3,4,5, or even more hours.

Yes, the body cells will be more apt to absorb nutrients immediately post-workout, thus the idea of post-workout nutrition. The flaw in that thought process is that the body is devoid of circulating nutrients after a workout. It is not as though your blood sugar levels are 0 post workout. Nor are your blood amino acid levels assuming you ate anything in the several hours prior to your workout.

Just make sure you get plenty of protein and carbs throughout the day and don't worry about pre or post-workout nutrition to any great degree.


What about those of us that workout first thing in the morning? I've seen people recomend to have a meal about an hour before working out, but would it be good enough to drink a shake (whey, dextrose, maybe creatine) 20-30 minutes before working out and then having breakfast 45-60 minutes after the workout?

HemiVision
03-09-2004, 12:34 PM
What about those of us that workout first thing in the morning? I've seen people recomend to have a meal about an hour before working out, but would it be good enough to drink a shake (whey, dextrose, maybe creatine) 20-30 minutes before working out and then having breakfast 45-60 minutes after the workout?

I think you'd want to intake carb energy before your workout, otherwise you won't have as much lifting ability.

EdgarMex
03-09-2004, 12:38 PM
Usually I take the same amount of carbs I was taking post workout when I was working out at night (40 gr of dextrose).

smalls
03-09-2004, 12:45 PM
Good info, thanks for taking the time to post that.

ogarchamplin
03-09-2004, 01:27 PM
So something like gatorade/whey protein would be good both before and after a workout???


Gatorade is sugar water

Shao-LiN
03-09-2004, 02:17 PM
What about those of us that workout first thing in the morning? I've seen people recomend to have a meal about an hour before working out, but would it be good enough to drink a shake (whey, dextrose, maybe creatine) 20-30 minutes before working out and then having breakfast 45-60 minutes after the workout?

Either eat a full meal an hour or 2 before, or gulp down a protein/carb shake 30-60 minutes prior...either way is fine.

bIgHwN86
03-09-2004, 03:04 PM
so if i downed a protein/creatine drink 30 minutes before workout, could i drink protein/creatine mix during to take care of post workout, or am i just stating a dumb post. :scratch:

Shao-LiN
03-09-2004, 04:00 PM
Could drink a carb based drink during the workout to keep your body in an anabolic state, but I'd save the protein/creatine for afterwards.

salsapop
07-30-2008, 03:57 PM
that would probably apply to EVERY thing we worry about except "lifting heavy weights" and "getting enough protien"

Very true.

vdizenzo
07-30-2008, 07:17 PM
geoffgarcia, awesome post. Thanks. I am a big believer in nutrient timing. I went about half a year without worrying about my during/post workout nutrition. I just got lazy. I definitely felt a difference in my body composition. I just felt soft.

I always practiced the basics of nutrient timing without even knowing it. When I decided to start again I bought the book Nutrient Timing. It was very basic and exactly what I needed (you can find the same basic information on the net). I have been following the principles closely and feel better than ever. I am experiencing quite a synergistic effect regarding my powerlifting training, conditioning, recuperation, and diet/supplementation. I strongly believe it is my diet/supplementation that has made the biggest difference.