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View Full Version : Opinions on Interesting Avant Thread on Orthodox Post-Workout Nutrition



_-_v_-_
02-28-2004, 12:51 PM
http://forum.avantlabs.com/?act=ST&f=12&t=3235&st=0

Perhaps this has been posted before; if so, I apologize. I found it interesting, however.

One particularly salient point: One researcher is alleged to have averred that it would take in excess of two years for one to observe any statistically significant differences effected by differing schemes of post-workout nutrition (that is, high-GI versus low-GI).

Holto
02-28-2004, 03:59 PM
One particularly salient point: One researcher is alleged to have averred that it would take in excess of two years for one to observe any statistically significant differences effected by differing schemes of post-workout nutrition (that is, high-GI versus low-GI).

all the small things add up

certainly High GI is not a necessity

the vast majority of people training don't have the first clue about nutrition and still grow

it's not like we are growing 5 times faster or anything

chris mason
02-28-2004, 04:33 PM
Here is the problem with internet chat boards and the "experts", they use and reference studies without realizing those studies have little real world applicability, or they do not apply the results of the studies correctly.

galileo
02-28-2004, 04:46 PM
A lot of people recognize these differences and state their opinions with respect to the different types of studies (in vivo, in vitro, etc). Not everyone is ignorant.

_-_v_-_
02-28-2004, 06:32 PM
I realize that differences do add up, that of course progress is an accretive process. The reason I found the thread interesting was that it had a degree of personal relevance. Let me explain.

Due to my allergies (which are myriad and generally lethal), I'm unable to adhere to traditional post-workout nutritional schemes: whey/dextrose shakes, etc. Instead I have long been using one cup (measured raw) of cooked egg whites and one package of sweettarts: 50g dextrose, 25 g protein total. Yet for as long as I have been doing this, I have always felt uncomfortable afterward, particularly after eating my subsequent meal ninety minutes later. Couple this discomfort with the rigidity of diet/schedule imposed by careful timing of pre/post-workout nutrition and you have the potential for a certain amount of dissatisfaction.

Anyway. Long story short. If I could achieve comperable if not identical results from simply returning home and eating a larger dinner, I would consider doing so, particularly as I'm currently in that class of individuals who myopically focuses upon dietary minutia: when I eat, what I eat, etc..., when I know that the sole determining factor (assuming a diet even vaguely balanced) is not when or what but simply how much.

This all, of course, has no bearing whatsoever on the merits of the various viewpoints expressed in the linked thread. I was merely wondering what the impressions here were of the science/studies/reasoning involved.

Edit: I know, I'm an idiot. I could have summed up this post in a single sentence: I've more than lost sight of the forest for the trees; I've spent two years so obsessed over the microscopic morphologies of individual leaf venule cells that I somehow completely lost sight of the fact that I was LOST in the freaking forest.

thetopdog
02-28-2004, 06:42 PM
I REALLY want to be able to stop using Malto/Dextrose becuase the thought of becomming a type II diabetic, or at the very least having redused (Or increased? Which one is the bad one) insulin sensitivity scares me. Plus I think I can really attribute most of the fat I gain on a bulk to too many high GI carbs from the weightgainer

_-_v_-_
02-28-2004, 06:51 PM
That issue has been discussed on here.

Remember, type II diabetes is caused by far more than simple carbohydrate intake. And furthermore, I would propose that the degree to which it IS caused by simple carbohydrate intake can be explained not be drinking a high-GI drink four times per week but by decades in which: A) nearly all carbohydrate intake is high-glycemic in nature; B) fiber intake is minimal; C) total fat and carbohydrate intake is extremely high; D) total calorie intake is in perpetual excess of metabolic requirements; and (which follows from D) E) exercise is minimal if present at all.

thetopdog
02-28-2004, 07:12 PM
That issue has been discussed on here.

Remember, type II diabetes is caused by far more than simple carbohydrate intake. And furthermore, I would propose that the degree to which it IS caused by simple carbohydrate intake can be explained not be drinking a high-GI drink four times per week but by decades in which: A) nearly all carbohydrate intake is high-glycemic in nature; B) fiber intake is minimal; C) total fat and carbohydrate intake is extremely high; D) total calorie intake is in perpetual excess of metabolic requirements; and (which follows from D) E) exercise is minimal if present at all.

Thanks for the reply. I guess what scares me is that nobody really knows for sure. I would rather not play around with my body and risk diabetes (however small that risk is). If it means that it will make a huge difference in muscle gain,I guess I'll take the risk, but if it means it will only make a neglible difference, I'll stick to oats and whey post workout

I think it's just the gradual nature of insulin insensitivity that scares me. For all I know, my insulin sensitivity is worse now than it was a year ago when I started working out and taking weight gainer. I've also heard people(I don't know how true this is) attribute the increasing gut sizes of todays pro BBers to the worsening of their insulin sensitivity becuase of decades of high GI carb intake post workout. I know a lot of people attribute thier guts to GH, but this still scared me a little

I just wish there was conclusive evidence one way or another

_-_v_-_
02-28-2004, 07:25 PM
I understand your concern.

Let me rephrase my argument in the form of an analogy of sorts: In my opinion, your approach is similar to avoiding lung cancer by wearing a mask when gassing up your car. It's not the four minutes of city air that is carcinogenic; statistically, it's a lifetime of smoking two to three packs a day.

thetopdog
02-28-2004, 08:14 PM
I understand your concern.

Let me rephrase my argument in the form of an analogy of sorts: In my opinion, your approach is similar to avoiding lung cancer by wearing a mask when gassing up your car. It's not the four minutes of city air that is carcinogenic; statistically, it's a lifetime of smoking two to three packs a day.

That's cool, I can understand that. I guess I'm just not entirely convinced that the malto/dextrose post workout isn't more like the cigarettes than most people believe. That, in addtion to the fact that I think I've been seeing a lot of fat gain due to taking in too much malto in my weightgainer shakes

fornero
02-28-2004, 10:14 PM
That's cool, I can understand that. I guess I'm just not entirely convinced that the malto/dextrose post workout isn't more like the cigarettes than most people believe. That, in addtion to the fact that I think I've been seeing a lot of fat gain due to taking in too much malto in my weightgainer shakes

Assuming you're getting in a solid workout, the post-workout carb intake is not going to result in fat storage-- that'll occur from overall excess caloric intake.

The period of time just prior to, during and shortly after are the optimal times to take in high GI carbs, as nearly all (assuming you're consuming a reasonable amount) will be utilized for energy during the workout and glycogen replenishment/rmuscle growth and repair afterwards.

Now if you're pounding down weightgainer shakes all day, then ya-- that'll pack on the fat, but in for the purpose of workout nutrition, high GI isn't something you really need to worry about.

Paul Stagg
02-29-2004, 09:53 AM
IMO, and IME:

The key to post workout nutrition is to eat SOMETHING that will replentish your glycogen stores and give you some protein.

What that is matters far less than the eating of the meal.

For quite some time, I've been drinking a sports drink (Powerade) and eating about 20-30 minutes after I leave the gym at home. That home meal is typically a solid meal (dinner), and will be meat, some carbs, and veggies. Sometimes I even skip the carbs, knowing as I do that the during workout drink is probably sufficient to replace glycogen.

It's one of those things, as v indicates, where the minutia matters... a little. If you *can* optimise your post workout nutrition with a dextrose/whey shake, go ahead and do it. If that doesn't work so well for you, then just eat a 'normal' meal as soon as possible after your workout.

If your nutrition here is lacking, your workouts will pretty quickly show it.

Your time and energy are more effectively used getting another rep and making sure your macronutrients are right.

chris mason
02-29-2004, 10:10 AM
V, I think it is great that you realize the futility of excess worry about the nuances of nutrition. People on internet sites get so caught up in talking about the science of nutrition without really understanding it or being able to properly apply it. There are just too many variables to get so freaky about it.

Allow me to say a few immodest things about myself as an example. I have a very good level of strength and decent size. I am natural. I think many people would be happy to have my strength levels naturally.

I have tried various post-workout strategies and I have NEVER noted any difference in my recovery or progress regardless of what I did post-workout. In fact, I now take NOTHING post-workout. I usually eat dinner within an hour of training, but sometimes I wait much longer. Post-workout nutrition is NOT all it is cracked up to be.

I have found much better results from merely upping my overall protein intake regardless of when I take it in a day.

_-_v_-_
02-29-2004, 07:01 PM
V, I think it is great that you realize the futility of excess worry about the nuances of nutrition. People on internet sites get so caught up in talking about the science of nutrition without really understanding it or being able to properly apply it. There are just too many variables to get so freaky about it.

Allow me to say a few immodest things about myself as an example. I have a very good level of strength and decent size. I am natural. I think many people would be happy to have my strength levels naturally.

I have tried various post-workout strategies and I have NEVER noted any difference in my recovery or progress regardless of what I did post-workout. In fact, I now take NOTHING post-workout. I usually eat dinner within an hour of training, but sometimes I wait much longer. Post-workout nutrition is NOT all it is cracked up to be.

I have found much better results from merely upping my overall protein intake regardless of when I take it in a day.

Thanks for the replies. It's not so much that I remain uninterested in the scientific aspects of nutrition -- because certainly, as a biological science major, the subject does interest me greatly -- but more that I realized how obsessed I had become with aspects of it which, as it turns out, don't make a damn bit of difference.

Case in point: meal frequency. I had become so fixated upon meal timing, upon a rigid dietary schedule, upon eating not only what I was supposed to but whenI thought I was supposed to, that my college life had become largely nonexistent as such. Then I started doing research, and realized, after accumulating a preponderance of evidence, that meal frequency was largely if not entirely irrelevant, and that the obsessive regimens I had followed had been based not on fact but on bodybuilding convention I had internalized long ago. I had simply replaced a previous set of obsessions -- an ED, in my case -- with new ones (not all relating, of course, to meal frequency, which was just an example).

Further research tended to have similar effects on many other fictions I had fashioned not into facts but into articles of faith.

_-_v_-_
03-01-2004, 09:32 PM
Note:

I should add that it is far more difficult to excise from one's life the habits one has written there than it is to write them there in the first place. Which is only obvious, of course; and to say as much is to display not cogency but blithe naivete.

Advice is welcome; assistance appreciated.

Similar experiences, anyone?

Paul Stagg
03-02-2004, 06:26 AM
It's all individual, mate.

I, for example, have a heck of a time controlling my diet without borderline obsession over what I eat and recording it in some sort of spreadsheet where I can calculate average daily calories, track weight changes, estimate maintenance calories, etc, etc.

Some others just eat a little less.

You have to do what works for you, and just try not to spend an excess of time or energy on the minutia. I happen to be good at using Excel, have a laptop, and eat lots of the same foods, over and over... so my obsessive behavior isn't that intrusive.

chris mason
03-02-2004, 07:18 AM
This may appeal to one's obsessive nature, and also help to alleviate the obsession. Make it a point to eat whatever you wish, regardless of the perceived "consequences". While you do so, record EVERYTHING. Record everything you eat, at what time you eat it, serving size, even the method of preparation if you wish. Make sure to also record your weight, workout results, and your waist size (relaxed, in the morning the moment you get out of bed). Measuring your waist is an accurate indicator of bodyfat levels. Be sure to not gluttonize, just eat as normally as possible.

Do this for 6 solid weeks. At the end of that time, review your results. I think it will go a long ways towards excising the habits you wish to rid yourself of.

the doc
03-02-2004, 07:32 AM
Thanks for the reply. I guess what scares me is that nobody really knows for sure. I would rather not play around with my body and risk diabetes (however small that risk is). If it means that it will make a huge difference in muscle gain,I guess I'll take the risk, but if it means it will only make a neglible difference, I'll stick to oats and whey post workout

I think it's just the gradual nature of insulin insensitivity that scares me. For all I know, my insulin sensitivity is worse now than it was a year ago when I started working out and taking weight gainer. I've also heard people(I don't know how true this is) attribute the increasing gut sizes of todays pro BBers to the worsening of their insulin sensitivity becuase of decades of high GI carb intake post workout. I know a lot of people attribute thier guts to GH, but this still scared me a little

I just wish there was conclusive evidence one way or another



I have a working hypothesis that the large distented bellies are more a result of years of heavy AAS use. Some studies I have seen have shown an increase in visceral fat deposits (so-called "hard fat" that lies inside the abdominal cavity) and decrease in subcutaneous fat (the fat we pinch on our skin) during steroid administration. Thus it is completely logical that these BBers would develop huge but ripped (6/8 pack) bellies since all their fat is getting shifted from below the skin to inside the belly. The presence of this fat has been linked with chronic cardiovascular disease.

The presence of typeII diabetes most likely does come from years of overeating. Consider lee priest. Has anyone seen the pic of him from off season where his fatass is about to tear into a bucket of fried chicken? These guys eat huge quantities of food to sustain their huge physiques (most likely eating more than most anyone on this site). In addition, they will use insulin injections. They do this for years!!

These are the real problems that cause such poor health in the BBing community

WillKuenzel
03-02-2004, 07:36 AM
I've been documenting my gains for quite some time with regards to diet. I've varied with a overall calories and changes to meal timing. IMO, there comes a time in a persons training that if he wants to continue to get better they have to use every bit of available edges. Sure it might not matter to anybody off the street but in this game where many are reaching the edge of their genetic potential (without going to steriods) must use what they have. If there are enough studies that say post workout nutrition helps and its helped me since I've altered mine, then I'll continue to do it.