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furrukh
03-14-2004, 07:09 AM
Hey guys,
Currently i am making my post work out protien shakes, blending milk,2-3 egg whites and a few pieces of tofu. Is it a good receipe?I am doing it cause my personal instructor has discouraged me to use supplemets like whey powder at the current stage of my program.

Cheers

Isaac Wilkins
03-14-2004, 07:46 AM
If you don't use protein powders, that's fine. I'd drink some of that drink before you lift, though. Those ingredients are a bit slower digesting, and if you wait until after you work out to consume them you may miss your ideal window of opportunity. Just split your shake before and after you lift.

chris mason
03-14-2004, 09:17 AM
What is with these personal trainers????

Why exactly is the trainer advising you not to consume a protein powder "at this time"?

furrukh
03-15-2004, 04:20 AM
Well Chris it surprised me too, and when i asked him he said that right now i am in the first stage of my periodisation program that is reaching a target of 8-12 reps per set, and if i consume protien powders, the unused portion of them would be stored as fat around my belly. So he advised me to consume protien rich food like eggs, milk, turkey and chicken breasts, salmon, tuna and tofu, and after 12 weeks approximately when i go to my strength training stage then i shall start consuming some protien supplements

Isaac Wilkins
03-15-2004, 05:07 AM
Protein is protein, man, in the way that you can gain just as much fat from food sources as you can from an equal calorie amount of protein powder. Obviously there are digestion rate and glycemic response differences, but it's minimal.

Anthony
03-15-2004, 05:38 AM
What's the difference if you eat 40g of protein from eggs or 40g of protein from a protein powder? I used 40g as an example number ...

prof
03-15-2004, 09:55 AM
workout time, you need some fast absorbing nutrients, whey protien with dextrose will be fine, followed by a good meal within a 2 hour window of working out

and belly fat comes from a surplus of calories, whatever you eat

personal trainers.......why I oughta!!!

geoffgarcia
03-15-2004, 10:14 AM
What's the difference if you eat 40g of protein from eggs or 40g of protein from a protein powder? I used 40g as an example number ...
all protein is not created equal...

1) Protein Digestibility Corrected Amino Acid Score (PDCAAS)
2) Protein/Efficiency Ratio(PER)
3) Biological Value (BV)
4) Protein Digestibility %(PD)
WPC_____________________ 1.00___ 3.6___ 104___ 95
Whole Egg________________ 1.00___ 3.8___ 100___ 98
Casein____________________ 1.00___ 2.9___ 77___ 99
Soy Protein Concentrate_____ 0.99___ 2.2___ 74___ 95
Beef______________________ 0.92___ 2.9___ 80___ 98
Wheat Gluten______________ 0.25___ 0.34___ 54___ 91
http://www.allthewhey.com/compare.html#Anchor-Testosteron-51620

furrukh
03-16-2004, 12:17 AM
Well all my favourite members have contributed here ( G'day professor and geoffgarcia). All right then i shall go out and shop for some whey powders, what do you boys think of "Designer Whey Powder"?, but till i get it would a protien shake by blending no fat milk(approximately 250 ml=13.3 g of protien),2-3 egg whites(hard boiled),few pieces of tofu and a handful of blackberries be effective? and after 2 hours of consuming the protien powder i have dinner comprising of boiled brocolli, carrots, half an onion, 3-4 olives and two pieces of turkey breast. Waht do you think?

Anthony
03-16-2004, 04:23 AM
Geoff, I meant in terms of calories. However, I don't think a protein powder will make you any bigger/stronger than if you ate steak/chicken/fish. Although, it will make it easier to control calories as Chris said. I mean, what kind of protein powder do you think Arthur Saxon was drinking?

I'm not trying to turn you off of protein powders (drinking a Nitrean shake right now). I'm just saying there's not much difference between real food and protein powders other than convenience.

furrukh
03-16-2004, 04:30 AM
Well Anthony i am new to the supplements world, i obvioulsy am not as knowledgeable as you or any of the other senior members, but the only thing i know that being on a student budget and eating rich protien foods is killing my pocket, whereas on the other hand side a bucket of protien powder would cost me like Aus$55.00 and would last me a couple of months atleast. I would leave this for further discussions/arguments. Cheers

prof
03-16-2004, 04:49 AM
reading on t-mag they say that a quickly absorbing protein with simple sugers such as glucose is needed before during and after training ideally, then slower digesting proteins in your next meal. Agreed to gain you need to be in a calorie surplus

furrukh
03-16-2004, 05:00 AM
Professor its always a pleasure reading your comments, so in plain simple english what should i do(that is drink in terms of protien shakes)

prof
03-16-2004, 05:08 AM
well I am no expert, I just use 80g of protein powder + 60g of dextrose with water, drink half before and half after training. Then within 2 hours of training I eat a proper meal, with a decent helping of carbs, i eat more carbs after training than in other times of the day.

I use water cos I don't process milk very well. the shake is counted in my overall calories for the day

furrukh
03-16-2004, 05:14 AM
Professor i have sent you an e-mail, please have a look, and thanks in advance :)

prof
03-16-2004, 05:29 AM
you need to change your settings, i can't reply to your email

ok you need to eat some more protein each meal needs protein.

best thing is to read the diet and nutrition articles on the main wannabebig site. One of the articles has a calorie calculator, work through that and work out your daily calories. This is only a rough guide, the scales and mirror are a good indicator.

Your training routine needs to incorporate squats and deadlifts, stick to what are called compound exercises. Again read the articles on this site

www.t-mag.com is a great site too although they use a lot of technical jargon.

It would be best to spend some time reading, read every article on the wannabebig site, and bear in mind that answers in the forum can be from inexperienced people as well as superhero hulk types.

keep a diary of food intake and lifting, start an online journal then people will butt in and help you.
good luck

furrukh
03-16-2004, 05:41 AM
Thanks prof, i'll do the research :)

Anthony
03-16-2004, 05:46 AM
furrukh, in reality it doesn't make much difference whether you have a protein/dextrose shake or steak and potatoes after a workout. If your macronutrients are the same, you'll pretty much get the same results. That's why I was trying to say don't worry about using a protein powder ... just don't expect different results. :)

prof
03-16-2004, 08:48 AM
Anthony, do you have any refs for that, I'm interested in finding out more.

xxr79xx
03-16-2004, 08:56 AM
What is with these personal trainers????

Why exactly is the trainer advising you not to consume a protein powder "at this time"?

Can we get as T-shirt made up that says "Personal trainers Sucks" :D

Anthony
03-16-2004, 09:11 AM
prof, I don't have any scientific documentation that tracked identical twins with identical routines with the exception of their post workout meal being different. I think that would be a pretty tough study. :P

But, I do have personal experience and it's also been discussed recently on these forums. I'm not arguing that there's an advantage to fast absorbing protein and carbs after a workout, but I do question how much of an advantage. If it results in an extra 0.0017lbs of muscle over the span of a year, I'm not going to worry about it. :)

Like Chris has said, what happens in a study and what happens in real life can be very different. With all the variables that go into making progress, not to mention injuries / stress / travel / etc, I doubt very much that one meal will make any difference in the long run.

prof
03-16-2004, 09:29 AM
Ok I see your point, I saw gains when i started using a workout shake, however i also sorted my diet out and modified my routine at the same time, so it is impossible to tell really. It can't hurt to have a whey shake tho

furrukh
03-17-2004, 02:25 AM
Interesting conversation we're getting in here. I weigh around 196 lbs and from what i've heard that if you want to gro you need aroung 196 g of protiens. Relying on natural foods/shakes such as milk,salmon,tuna,tofu,eggs,turkey and chicken breasts is not only consuming my time but it costs a lot. For example one dozen eggs in my grocery store costs around $2.75 and if i want to grow i need to eat around 30-40 egg whites(one egg white=3g of protien), multiply it by 40 eggs and you'll get 120g of eggs. Whereas a 2.1lb of desiner whey protien powder costs around $55.00 and has approx 40 servings. Geez i'm confused

prof
03-17-2004, 03:01 AM
this is only my opinion but...

based 0n 5 meals a day you need 40g per meal, which works out as 1 can of tuna or equivalent roughly. Mixing it up between different protien sources, it is not that difficult, not every meal needs to be a fillet steak ;)

and 1 of those meals may well be your protien shake. Ideally eat whole foods not whey except for workout times

furrukh
03-17-2004, 03:10 AM
Professor, one thing i must say you are very persistent and good at convincing blokes like me ;), allright then i'll go and get myself a bucket of whey(any brand would do?) cause for some reason i have designer whey stuck in my head. From what i gather eating one cup of oats with two hard boiled eggs for breakfast is not enough. What is the ideal time for a pre/post workout shake?. Cheers mate

prof
03-17-2004, 03:23 AM
ideal time for shakes?

i do 1/2 hour before and immediately after, but that is just me, no scientific evidence to back it up

If eating 5 meals a day -Breakfast may well be your biggest meal

so for example if you are eating 3k calories per day 3000/5= 600+ cals for breakfast

depending on your macro ratios you need to divide those calories up into protein/carbs/ fat

so if eating 30% protein then you need 180 cals from protein which is 1 tin tuna etc or equivalent.

I only use whey in workout drinks, or if i have run out of whole food proteins

furrukh
03-17-2004, 03:31 AM
This is so confusing, even my calculator died on me ;), i'll try to figure this whole thing out and get back to you *still scratching head

prof
03-17-2004, 03:37 AM
can't see how it is confusing?

1 gram of protein has 4 calories 1g of carb 4 calories and 1g of fat=9 calories

a can of tuna may weigh 180 g, but the meat only contains 27g of protein per hundred grams of actual meat/fish as it contains water etc too

you need to start reading labels, and learning lots about food

furrukh
03-17-2004, 03:43 AM
Now thats better, you're right i really do need to learn loads about food(just started a week back) but i'm on it, and thanks once again

Exnor
03-17-2004, 03:44 AM
Dont forget your complementary/incomplete proteins too, that can make up additional grams, from Grains (Oats, Pasta, Rice, Wheat etc.), Legumes (Beans, Peas, Peanuts, lentils etc.), Nuts/Seeds (Walnuts, Cashews, Sesame seeds etc.). Although you will not find huge amounts of protien in these foods, they still count.

For example, to create complete proteins, you can combine some of these foods.

- Peanut butter on whole-wheat bread
- Rice and beans
- Whole-wheat bun with sesame seeds
- Trail mix (peanuts and sunflower seeds)
etc.

I personally simply make sure I get a source of protein, carbs, and fat in each meal I consume. I am more concerned with getting surplus calories rather than huge amounts of protein, as I feel this to be more effective.

links:
http://health.allrefer.com/health/protein-in-diet-sources.html
http://www.lifeclinic.com/focus/nutrition/protein.asp
http://www.aux.umass.edu/diningservices/Nutrition/protein.pdf
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002467.htm

furrukh
03-17-2004, 03:47 AM
Dont forget your complementary/incomplete proteins too, that can make up additional grams, from Grains (Oats, Pasta, Rice, Wheat etc.), Legumes (Beans, Peas, Peanuts, lentils etc.), Nuts/Seeds (Walnuts, Cashews, Sesame seeds etc.). Although you will not find huge amounts of protien in these foods, they still count.

For example, to create complete proteins, you can combine some of these foods.

- Peanut butter on whole-wheat bread
- Rice and beans
- Whole-wheat bun with sesame seeds
- Trail mix (peanuts and sunflower seeds)
etc.

I personally simply make sure I get a source of protein, carbs, and fat in each meal I consume. I am more concerned with getting surplus calories rather than huge amounts of protein, as I feel this to be more effective.

links:
http://health.allrefer.com/health/protein-in-diet-sources.html
http://www.lifeclinic.com/focus/nutrition/protein.asp
http://www.aux.umass.edu/diningservices/Nutrition/protein.pdf
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002467.htm

Wow thanks mate, your post really helped, and yeah i make sure and would make sure in the future to make these food items a permanent part of my grocery list

prof
03-17-2004, 05:09 AM
Bread isn't a great source really as it often contains a lot of trans fats, and the veg oil they use can be soya based, soya isn't a good ingredient for blokes

TheGimp
03-17-2004, 05:47 AM
Assuming you are eating a balanced diet there is no need to worry about incomplete proteins or combining them. The amino acids from so called incomplete proteins (which in fact contain all amino acids but are limited in the essential ones) will remain in your system for several hours. If you are eating as frequently as you should the proteins from conescutive meals can be used together. Furthermore any "complete" protein such as soy, meat, eggs, dairy, will make up for any inadequacies of "incomplete" proteins eaten with them. I find it highly unlikely that you are eating any meals without one of these ingredients and if not I find it impossible that the meal before also did not contain them.

Soy is questionable, I am undecided myself but still eat probably in the region of 30g of soy protein a day. Studys on rhesus monkeys have shown that soy proteins had no effect on testosterone, DHEAS, sex hormone binding globulin, testicular weight and prostatic weight.

prof
03-17-2004, 08:10 AM
http://www.t-mag.com/nation_articles/302poison.jsp

this is a bit of a rant but put me off Soy

TheGimp
03-17-2004, 08:40 AM
I too have read similar literature on the subject which put me off eating soy for a bit. It's scary stuff but there are also quite a few flaws in the argument. My conclusion is basically that as always a varied diet is the way to go and there is always the possibility of too much of a "good" thing.

EDIT: I should probably mention I'm a vegetarian and therefore it's a little harder for me to avoid than most.

furrukh
03-17-2004, 09:00 AM
I know that i am eating a balanced diet, but a few nutritional consultants at the gym have told me to cut on olive oil, PB and fruit juice, and start taking more water and fresh fruits, but since i recently got really serious about combining 90 minutes in the gym with a good diet i believe that i am not taking in enough protiens, so thought i should turn to whey powders. Currently i am taking like 3 egg whites, 300ml of milk, 2 thick slices of tofu, 2-3 slices of turkey breast, and 1/4 can of tuna a day(as protien sources). I know this is like a midday snack for most blokes here, but when i said help wanted thats what i meant by it,:)

PiKappaWRX
04-08-2004, 12:59 PM
try nitrean from atlargenutrition as a good whey supplement. also, if you're gonna have a pre-workout shake, go for about 30mins. before you workout, and a postworkout shake would be basically as soon as you could consume it after working out.