PDA

View Full Version : Caffine, and building mass?



defcon
03-23-2004, 01:52 PM
Some of you may know about the coffee thread I started in the off topic forum, well anyway, something more serious this time. I was wondering what some of your opinions regarding this topic. Will consuming caffeine (drinking coffee) have any noticeable effects on your muscle growth?

Paul Stagg
03-23-2004, 02:19 PM
Not that I'm aware of.

Dedicated
03-23-2004, 02:20 PM
Interesting question, I love coffee, but I also have not heard of any negative effects. I find that caffeine kills my apetite and gives me energy a bit and this is beneficial if you are cutting I would think.

HemiVision
03-23-2004, 02:44 PM
Caffeine is a diuretic, which basically means it makes you urinate more. Just make sure you drink enough non-caffeinated fluids and replenish the vitamins lost in the urine stream.

Spartacus
03-23-2004, 03:53 PM
http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=36604

Dedicated
03-23-2004, 03:57 PM
http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=36604
Wow heh, blast from the past, I started that post in September last year, so cool to llook back on it now and read it:)

galileo
03-23-2004, 04:02 PM
Caffiene actually does decrease insulin sensitivity (offset slightly by exercise).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11815511
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11872654

This could be detrimental to your muscle building goals, but to what degree I couldn't venture to guess. I don't drink coffee while bulking or while I'm refeeding, just as a precaution.

Spartacus
03-23-2004, 05:11 PM
as far as i can tell, neither of those studies shows that caffiene causes insulin sensitivity to be reduced in muscle than in fat, which is what is more important if you are not diabetic. also it increases fat release.

also remember that tea as a whole is an insulin sensitisor, so that would be offsetting. although this would not apply to coffee.

overall i would not say its helpful esp. for bulking but i don't think moderate amounts from drink will be a problem, especially if you get enough water and have good pH balance from food.

defcon
03-23-2004, 09:02 PM
From the first study, it seems to me that the caffiene causes a pretty high % increase in the release of FFA. Another thing that I would like to point out, as Dedicated stated, caffiene could give you a little boost of energy, which may help you lift more weight in the gym, which may reduce the amount of muscle/strength loss during a cut? The second study I didn't see anything that was of major use, I only skimmed it, but still. Could you please point out the reason you are quoting it please? Going to bed, see ya in the mourning :)

Budiak
03-24-2004, 02:41 AM
I havent had a cup of coffee in weeks and I'm bulking.

What I DO do is take ECA 2-3 times a day, 200mg caffiene each time. I've not noticed any slowing of gains from not being on that **** to being on it. I'm with Gal. It may do something, but I think that the degree of that effect is negligible.

defcon
03-24-2004, 04:28 AM
I havent had a cup of coffee in weeks and I'm bulking.

What I DO do is take ECA 2-3 times a day, 200mg caffiene each time. I've not noticed any slowing of gains from not being on that **** to being on it. I'm with Gal. It may do something, but I think that the degree of that effect is negligible.

Why take ECA during a bulk?

galileo
03-24-2004, 09:00 AM
From the first study, it seems to me that the caffiene causes a pretty high % increase in the release of FFA. Another thing that I would like to point out, as Dedicated stated, caffiene could give you a little boost of energy, which may help you lift more weight in the gym, which may reduce the amount of muscle/strength loss during a cut? The second study I didn't see anything that was of major use, I only skimmed it, but still. Could you please point out the reason you are quoting it please? Going to bed, see ya in the mourning :)


1. Release of FFA's will not matter when bulking, as the title of this thread refers to building mass, we're not talking releasing FFA's.
2. Lifting more weight will not reduce strength/muscle loss during a cut. We're also not talking about cutting.
3. I am quoting it because in many places I've seen reference to this exact thing : caffeine hinders insulin sensitivity. For building mass, this makes it less than ideal.

For cutting, caffeine is just fine and even beneficial.

galileo
03-24-2004, 09:11 AM
as far as i can tell, neither of those studies shows that caffiene causes insulin sensitivity to be reduced in muscle than in fat, which is what is more important if you are not diabetic. also it increases fat release.

also remember that tea as a whole is an insulin sensitisor, so that would be offsetting. although this would not apply to coffee.

overall i would not say its helpful esp. for bulking but i don't think moderate amounts from drink will be a problem, especially if you get enough water and have good pH balance from food.

Insulin sensitivity refers to how great of an insulin response there is in the presence of something that evokes such a reaction. When it it decreased, you become less sensitive to insulin and more of it is released.


"Insulin sensitivity was calculated as whole-body glucose uptake..."

...referring to how the glucose was removed from the blood stream.



During the clamp, whole-body glucose disposal was reduced...

Caffeine also reduced (P < 0.05) GS activity before and during insulin infusion in both legs....

GS refers to glycogen synthase, which is the enzyme that is responsible for triggering synthesis, basically.

So in conclusion glucose disposal was reduced and glycogen production was blunted.

Spartacus
03-24-2004, 11:28 AM
right but thats only important if its specific to muscle tissues (as opposed to being in muscle and fat and other tissue) or you are diabetic.

if it is muscle-specific that would be bad, but otehrwise i dno't see how this will make much of an impact.

galileo
03-24-2004, 12:16 PM
You're limiting your glycogen production, how much glucose is taken up, and how large of an insulin reaction needs to occur. These, with respect to gaining muscle, are a conflict. I'm not saying the effects are negative overall, although we could get into leptin expression and other reasons caffeine could be a hinderance at certain points while cutting, but for gaining (lean) muscle it could be a concern.

Spartacus
03-30-2004, 12:18 AM
you could just not consume your coffee within a few hours before working out. i agree it could be a concern, but the evidence doesn't seem to be strongly against it.

galileo
03-30-2004, 06:31 AM
Actually, that would be the opposite of what I'd recommend. What overcomes insulin sensitivity issues more than a workout? Not much, I assure you. If there was one time to take caffeine on a bulk it would be around the workout. You get the marginal benefit of FFA mobilization during the workout and the workout will assist in the counteracting of some of the IS issues. It's other times throughout the day that I'd have concern because you have no real means of coercing the nutrients along the proper paths.

Spartacus
03-30-2004, 05:40 PM
yes but you aren't trying to refill your glycogen during the rest of the day, only right after a workout when you deplete it. the rest of the time, you have pretty much full glycogen, and are just burning off the carbs you are eatingat that moment.

galileo
03-30-2004, 07:26 PM
So you think insulin resistance is good while in a caloric surplus just because you're not refilling glycogen or are you under the impression that when bulking the only time you need a surplus is around the workout window?

Also, working out isn't that glycogen depleting. The most important part of all of this is causing your body to become inefficient with insulin, which will lead to greater fat gains in the end. If you're eating a lower GI carb and getting the response of a high GI carb, how do you find that beneficial?

I'm sure you can do a search on caffeine and insulin resistance and get a load of studies and articles about it. Here's a nice debate about the topic: http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/supplementation/caffeine.htm -
It's not 100% conclusive, but I think it displays some of the concerns mentioned.

As I've originally said, the degree of how it affects you isn't known, but it will affect you. Whether it is enough to justify removing caffeine from your bulk schedule is up to you. But you can't debate these ridiculous points with arguments that are not even applicable.

Spartacus
03-30-2004, 08:05 PM
i'm not saying insulin resistance is good, i just am not convinced low levels are bad. sort of the converse of ala/tea/cinnamon. i'm not really convinced they are going to do any good by doing the opposite. "inefficiency with insulin" causing poorer body composition, i don't see either.

secondly if you are not depeliting glycogen, then you don't need to refill it, making the question of caffiene/glycogen moot.

i'm not saying caffiene will definatly not have an effect, but i don't think there is any clear evidence showing it will have negative consequences that are in any way large enough to be significant. i agree it is someones decision but my opinion is that it is not going to make a difference.

PowerManDL
03-30-2004, 08:46 PM
Inefficiency w/ insulin most certainly will cause issues. It's the last thing you want while bulking. Think of it this way....IR is thought to occur as a mechanism to prevent weight gain. Is that what you want during a bulk? Beyond exercise, the only thing that can really improve IS is fish oil. So there's really no reason to run around making it worse than it's already going to be on a bulk by adding caffeine to the mix.

This isn't just limited to caffeine though...anything that increases blood levels of FFA's is going to decrease IS, and just as a rule it's not a good idea on a bulk. If you're cutting, have at it.

galileo
03-30-2004, 08:47 PM
We aren't arguing about significance. It's up to you to decide whether or not it's worth it to skip out. I always try to go with the safer bet because not everybody has a favorable phenotype.

As far as insulin resistance, here are some things that result from it:
"increased hunger, an increased chance of coronary heart disease, decreased fat usage, increased aldosterone (the hormone that causes water retention), increased cortisol, decreased growth hormone, a deficiency of chromium, increased homocysteine levels (a risk factor for coronary artery disease), decreased IGF-1, increased SHBG (sex hormone binding globulin), and decreased Testosterone"


1. Roberts SB. "High-glycemic index foods, hunger, and obesity: is there a connection?" Nutr Rev. 2000 Jan;58(6):163-9

2. Lin S, et al. "A prospective study of dietary glycemic load, carbohydrate intake, and risk of coronary heart disease in U.S. women." Am J Clin Nutr 2000 Jun; 71(6):1455-61

3. Ludwig DS, et al. "High glycemic index foods, overeating, and obesity." Pediatrics 1999 Mar;103(3):E26

4. Goodfriend TL, et al. "Plasma aldosterone, plasma lipoproteins, obesity and insulin resistance in humans." Prostaglandins Leukot Essent Fatty Acids 1999 May-Jun;60(5-6):401-5

5. Lee ZS, et al. "Plasma insulin, growth hormone, cortisol, and central obesity among young Chinese type 2 diabetic pateints." Diabetes Care 1999 Sep;22(9):1450-7

6. Striffler JS, et al. "Overproduction of insulin in the chromium deficient rat." Metabolism 1999 Aug;48(8):1063-8

7. Bar-On H, et al. "Plasma total homocysteine levels in subjects with hyperinsulinemia." J Intern Med. 2000 Feb;247(2):287-94

8. Slagado LR, et al. "Effect of glycemic control on growth hormone and IGF-1 secretion in patients with type I diabetes mellitus." J Endocrinol Invest 1996 Jul-Aug;19(7):433-

9. Fernandez-Real JM, et al. "Plasma total and glycosylated corticosteroid binding globulin levels are associated with insulin secretion." J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1999 Sep;84(9) 3192-6

10. Hjalmarsen A, Aasebo V, Aakvaag A, Jorde R. "Sex hormone responses in healthy men and male patients with chronic obstructive pulmonary disease during an oral glucose load." Scnd. J. Clin. Lab. Invest. 1996 Nov; 56(7): 635-40


I assure you that a number of those affect body composition negatively.

Spartacus
03-30-2004, 10:39 PM
but significance IS what i'm arguing about. certainly if you have full-blow diabtese then you have problems, but the effects of somewhat increased resistance for part of the day for athlets are not so clear cut, especially without knowing where the IR is occuring specifically. this is slightly different from the glycogen synthesis discussed earlier.

but we are going in circiles.

Isaac Wilkins
03-31-2004, 06:06 AM
yes but you aren't trying to refill your glycogen during the rest of the day, only right after a workout when you deplete it. the rest of the time, you have pretty much full glycogen, and are just burning off the carbs you are eatingat that moment.

Well, that's going to depend on how you work out. If you have any intensity at all chances are good that you're going to spend the next 8-16 hours, even after weightlifting, replenishing glycogen. Glycogen replenishment is a slow process.

As an example, if you manage to pretty much fully deplete (through keto diets, cardio, etc, not through normal weightlifting), then it's probably going to take up to 48 hours to fully load up.

galileo
03-31-2004, 06:30 AM
Borris is getting at a good point.

Spartacus, I think you're just trying to argue. You've presented no proof, just what you "think." You can make up your own mind, as I've said frequently, and the degree may or may not be negligible, but it does happen.

galileo
03-31-2004, 06:51 AM
Coincidently, I also came across this today from Avant Labs.




Overuse of caffeine and other stimulants has negative long-term ramifications for body composition. Caffeine elevates cAMP, which activates AMPK in skeletal muscle. This is one way it aids in fat burning. However, AMPK also lowers cellular metabolism in the long run, reducing your energy requirements and slowing your metabolism. AMPK is basically a cellular brake; it is activated by the endocrine system during the hypoglycemic state. This serves to switch the cell to fat usage to preserve glucose for the brain. It also reduces the cellís metabolism however, thus saving any blood glucose for the brain as well.

Secondly, caffeine exhibits some nasty effects brought about by being an adenosine antagonist. Caffeine reduces cell volume by acting as a cellular diuretic. Cell volume is intimately tied to anabolism. In fact it has been proposed that the majority of insulinís anabolic action is exerted through increases in cell volume. Adenosine antagonistís also induce insulin resistance, and cause one to spend more time each day in the hyperglycemic state.

Finally, caffeine interferes with the conversion of omega-3 fatty acids into EPA and DHA, thus emulating some of the negative aspects of omega-3 deficiency.

Overuse of ephedrine and other NE promoters is also counterproductive. As discussed above, NE activation in the PVN leads to long-term changes in the PVN that favor CRF over TRH. This both reduces metabolism and lowers sex hormones, resulting in decreased anabolism and increased muscle loss.

If you want to argue these points, you can send him an email. (http://forum.avantlabs.com/?act=Mail&CODE=00&MID=112)

Spartacus
03-31-2004, 12:43 PM
LOL. if you read my first post in this thread, i was pointing out a longago discussion with bradly where i learned about the ampk thing. also remember ampk is reduce in the presence of insulin (bulking).

so there are concerns with caffine, but i don't think insulin senstitivity is very importatn as they go.

note that spook, while against heavy use of caffien, is ok with moderate use (he drinks the coffee), and suggests it be used away from the wieght training. link (http://forum.avantlabs.com/?act=ST&f=1&t=8511) .

i'm also not sure why you are talking about full depletion since we are talking about bulking not cutting.

galileo
03-31-2004, 12:58 PM
Again, back to degree. I've never once said one must eliminate all caffeine from their diet. I'm drinking a delicious cup as I type this. All I'm espousing is that it does have an affect on certain functions and could possibly be detrimental. You've basically added nothing to this discussion aside from stating what you feel, which is basically useless to me. I'm actively participating in the thread in hopes to get something in return from you as to the sources of your opinions, but I've received nothing. I'm ending my part here, because it has thus far been a one-way street.

chris mason
03-31-2004, 07:28 PM
Caffeine increases lipid oxidation and decreases protein oxidation.

Caffeine used in relative moderation can be a help to your bodybuilding goals.

icstoo
05-12-2004, 11:07 AM
Hi, I read recently that caffeine should be avoided while in ketosis as it increases blood glucose. This sounds believable as it gives you a feeling of more energy, but I know for a fact that it also promotes fat utilisation. Therefore, caffeine whilst in ketosis: good or bad?

carlossalsa8
05-12-2004, 02:49 PM
It's kind out of topic but anyways: I have a sensitive stomach. I am getting sick from the stomach again. I just would like to know if drinking coffee while being sick of the stomach is bad. Thanks