Egcg

[Sleepr]

I am having a hard time finding green tea extract with a nice amount of EGCG concentration. Can anyone recommend a site for me?

[Sleepr]

C'mon.....I see a million products that don't reveal their egcg concentration...is there a general standard of egcg per (x)mg?

[andy51]

bump... I'd like some info on this as well

[ryuage]

www.1fast400.com

[chris mason]

No specific standard. In addition, you will find some products will state the standardization for polyphenols, but not specifically for EGCG. EGCG is only one of the polyphenols, but the one considered to be the effective agent in the thermogenic effect of green tea.

AtLarge's new Thermocin which should hit the market within the next 3-4 weeks will contain a green tea extract standardized to 90mg of EGCG per serving. You might want to wait for it.

[ogarchamplin]

AtLarge's new Thermocin which should hit the market within the next 3-4 weeks will contain a green tea extract standardized to 90mg of EGCG per serving. You might want to wait for it.


Nice Plug!

[geoffgarcia]

do a little reading up on it too, its been shown to reduce testosterone by 70% in tests

this should be helpful if EGCG is your priority
http://www.drumlib.com/supp/prod/green-tea_01.htm

[Sleepr]

Chris, I know all about the new thermocin coming out....but I am starting my cut now.
So I ordered the NOW 400mg green tea extract from 1fast400. It says 40% catechins and 60% polyphenols. How much can I guesstimate its EGCG content?

[ryuage]

Chris, I know all about the new thermocin coming out....but I am starting my cut now.
So I ordered the NOW 400mg green tea extract from 1fast400. It says 40% catechins and 60% polyphenols. How much can I guesstimate its EGCG content?

by the label?

[1Fast400]

http://www.bulknutrition.com/?ingredients_id=17

[ryuage]

Now Green Tea Extract is the most economical option, with each capsule containing 400 mg of green tea and providing about 100 mg of EGCG.

[Holto]

Chris, I know all about the new thermocin coming out....but I am starting my cut now.
So I ordered the NOW 400mg green tea extract from 1fast400. It says 40% catechins and 60% polyphenols. How much can I guesstimate its EGCG content?

you can guess by the fact they ommitted it from the label that it's low...

NOW is a good cheap brand

[Spartacus]

black star labs has a high egcg extract
http://www.blackstarlabs.com/?cPath=27&products_id=167
http://www.blackstarlabs.com/?cPath=27&products_id=179

you'll have to cap it yourself though.

[Dedicated]

do a little reading up on it too, its been shown to reduce testosterone by 70% in tests
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70% is a big number! Do you have any links or anything that talk about this? Also would drinking say 1 cup of green tea a day cause a reduction in testosterone or would this dose provide nowhere near the amount needed to cause a reduction in testosterone. I sometimes drink green tea for the extra kick but now I'm hesitant.

[geoffgarcia]

70% is a big number! Do you have any links or anything that talk about this? Also would drinking say 1 cup of green tea a day cause a reduction in testosterone or would this dose provide nowhere near the amount needed to cause a reduction in testosterone. I sometimes drink green tea for the extra kick but now I'm hesitant.
yep!
luckily every time I come across random numbers like these I track them in my journal just in case anyone else wants to see 'em! *hahaha*
so here ya go!


Scientists at the University of Chicago's Tang Center for Herbal Medicine Research have found that a major chemical component of green tea caused rats to lose up to 21 percent of their body weight. Rats injected with epigallocatechin gallate (EGCG) derived from green tea leaves lost their appetites and consumed up to 60 percent less food after seven days of daily injections.

rats injected with EGCG had lower levels of testosterone (70 percent less in the bloodstream) and insulin.

EGCG was less effective when rats were given the substance orally. "This may be because of poor absorption of EGCG or possibly because of an interaction with food," said Liao. The researchers also found that EGCG reduced abdominal and subcutaneous (just under the skin) fat, and blood levels of lipid, glucose and cholesterol, but did not appear to cause liver damage.

Although oral administration of EGCG was ineffective even after 14 consecutive days of large doses, Liao thinks that long term oral consumption may mimic some of the results obtained with injection.

"A person would have to drink green tea almost constantly to obtain these results," said Liao. "And since some of the hormonal changes we saw in the rats could have negative effects, especially in younger people, I don't recommend drinking large quantities of green tea for everybody. Much more research needs to be done," cautioned Liao.
The University of Chicago Medical Center
http://www.uchospitals.edu/news/2000/20000223-tea.php

[Dedicated]

Interesting thanks, gonna read through that link:)

[Sleepr]

I think the NOW brand contains 44mg EGCG per capsule guys.

[chris mason]

do a little reading up on it too, its been shown to reduce testosterone by 70% in tests

this should be helpful if EGCG is your priority
http://www.drumlib.com/supp/prod/green-tea_01.htm

That was in mice Geoff, not humans. You cannot assume the same will occur in humans. By the way, I am currently taking green tea extract and have experienced no such problems.

[chris mason]

Chris, I know all about the new thermocin coming out....but I am starting my cut now.
So I ordered the NOW 400mg green tea extract from 1fast400. It says 40% catechins and 60% polyphenols. How much can I guesstimate its EGCG content?

You really can't. I would just follow the label directions in that case.

[geoffgarcia]

I assume your saying that rats and humans are so different that these results are meaningless?
why would they do all of these tests on rats then? if they are irrelevant for humans?

I find it ironic then that so many companies that are trying to market EGCG products use that study and note the 60% loss in weight in the mice/rats yet neglect to mention the 70% decline in testosterone that was also discovered in that test...

how do you know your test levels have not dropped? have you been measuring them?

[Spartacus]

rats get a much more potent appetite suppression from green tea than humans do.

if you ate 60% less then you would get hormone problems.

but the green tea isn't even used as an appetite supressant just as a thermogenic.

any appetite supressant would decrease hormones because its causeing you to go on a drastic cut.

[Dedicated]

rats get a much more potent appetite suppression from green tea than humans do.

if you ate 60% less then you would get hormone problems.

but the green tea isn't even used as an appetite supressant just as a thermogenic.

any appetite supressant would decrease hormones because its causeing you to go on a drastic cut.
If you read the entire link that geoff provided you will see that they had a 2nd set of rats which they underfed and by comparing them to the rats who took EGCG they still concluded that the EGCG had negative hormonal effects on the rats, so it was not just the underfeeding that caused these effects, but it was in fact the EGCG. I imagine the dose that need be taken is very large and over a very large period of time. Personally I would not supplement with it, but it comes down to a personal choice, ephedrine is probably alot worse IMO.

[Shao-LiN]

Rats and humans are different. They're rats, we're not. Studies done on rats may show implications for what "may" happen in humans, but it doesn't necessarily mean it will. Most CLA studies out there that tout it for massive lipolysis are performed in rats. What happens when it's used in humans? You need a pretty high dosage to get any sort of results, and even then it's pretty iffy.

[Sleepr]

Didn't blocking myostatin in rats also lead to rats growing 300% in muscle mass? No effect on humans though.

[Dedicated]

Rats and humans are different. They're rats, we're not. Studies done on rats may show implications for what "may" happen in humans, but it doesn't necessarily mean it will. Most CLA studies out there that tout it for massive lipolysis are performed in rats. What happens when it's used in humans? You need a pretty high dosage to get any sort of results, and even then it's pretty iffy.
Excellent point. There's ton of studies done on rats that don't prove to be correct in humans, one that comes to mind is the removal of cancerous cells from rats, it works out perfect for the rats, unfortunately the case isn't the same always in humans.

[geoffgarcia]

yet it doesn't stop every ecgc company from touting the benefits of studies on rats!
there just isn't enough human studies done...
thank god the FDA is regulating this crap soon

[Spartacus]

If you read the entire link that geoff provided you will see that they had a 2nd set of rats which they underfed and by comparing them to the rats who took EGCG they still concluded that the EGCG had negative hormonal effects on the rats, so it was not just the underfeeding that caused these effects, but it was in fact the EGCG. I imagine the dose that need be taken is very large and over a very large period of time. Personally I would not supplement with it, but it comes down to a personal choice, ephedrine is probably alot worse IMO.


Liao compared the EGCG-injected rats to controls who were fed a restricted diet. These rats showed similar decreases in testosterone and insulin levels, but some hormones changes were seen in the EGCG-injected rats that were not observed in the restricted diet rats.

well EGCG isn't hurting testosterone or insulin in rats, which is what i would be most concerned with. it has been shown to affect 5 alpha-reductase, but other than keeping hair on my head, what are you worried about?

[chris mason]

I assume your saying that rats and humans are so different that these results are meaningless?
why would they do all of these tests on rats then? if they are irrelevant for humans?

I find it ironic then that so many companies that are trying to market EGCG products use that study and note the 60% loss in weight in the mice/rats yet neglect to mention the 70% decline in testosterone that was also discovered in that test...

how do you know your test levels have not dropped? have you been measuring them?

As a matter of fact, I just had a complete workup done on my blood (due to a health related issue). I am glad you asked!

Now, I don't use animal studies to reference things (almost never, I learned long ago to never say never) due to the fact that they do not necessarily translate. Sometimes what occurs in mice occurs in men, but sometimes not. Any good researcher knows that.

Here is a human study for you:

Abdul G Dulloo, Claudette Duret, Dorothee Rohrer, Lucian Girardier, Nouri Mensi, Marc Fathi, Philippe Chantre and Jacques Vandermander. Efficacy of a green tea extract rich in catechin polyphenols and caffeine in increasing 24-h energy expenditure and fat oxidation in humans. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol. 70, No. 6, 1040-1045, December 1999.


I am sure Aka can do some research and come up with some more links for us. I would be very curious to see if any research shows a decrease in testosterone of humans.

[geoffgarcia]

yah, me too
I've been looking around in google and haven't found anything
also the rat tests were injections, they said high oral doses didn't cause any reaction at all

[Spartacus]

well that probably just be a dosage issue. i don't think its very bioavalible

[chris mason]

Thank you for saying that Geoff. This is an important point that many, MANY people never understand. Supplement companies have recommended dose schedules for a reason. There are times where a little of a product may produce a desirable effect without any negative side effects. Unfortunately, and this is a big reason for the problems the supplement industry faces today, most people have a "more is better attitude". People then take much higher doses than the seller ever intended and you end up with adverse events.

Epehdra would have never been banned if not for people taking way too much of the product in a foolish fashion (for example, taking a big dose and then intensely exercising in heat high enough to give you a heat stroke anyway).

EGCG, taken as recommended, will NOT depress your testosterone levels. It WILL help you to lose fat and MAY have other desirable properties.

Supplements should be treated with respect, caution, and intelligence, only then will you be able to see the results you want (assuming the supplement does what it says) and avoid the pratfalls. People should ALWAYS read the warning labels and use their heads. If you take a stimulant and your heart palipitates (intermittent harder beats, or irregular beats), then STOP TAKING IT.

[geoffgarcia]

not trying to be a PITA, but I didn't mean to imply that there was only a lack of hormonal changes, the study indicates there was a lack of ANY reaction to EGCG when taken orally in large doses...

Although oral administration of EGCG was ineffective even after 14 consecutive days of large doses, Liao thinks that long term oral consumption may mimic some of the results obtained with injection.

"A person would have to drink green tea almost constantly to obtain these results," said Liao. "And since some of the hormonal changes we saw in the rats could have negative effects, especially in younger people, I don't recommend drinking large quantities of green tea for everybody. Much more research needs to be done," cautioned Liao.

I think the last line summed it up best...much more research needs to be done

which is why we can all thank the FDA for stepping in (hopefully)...

isn't it funny to note how there are never any studies on these things from supplement companies? I mean honestly, how many companies out there are racing to add EGCG and synephrine to their products, yet its almost as though they rely strictly on these journal studies which more than likely are NOT intended to be used as marketing/research justification for supplement companies...... :scratch:

[chris mason]

Actually, much more research doesn't need to be done. There are several studies on humans which show green tea to have a thermogenic effect greater than its caffeine content alone can account for.

In addition, there is plenty of empirical evidence to support that fact as well.

Green tea, or green tea extract is one of the MORE studied supplements around.

I agree that many supplement companies misuse study results to tout their own products. This brings us back to AtLarge's founding principle of only selling products that really do work. We won't take some study done on pregnant female rats and tell you some supplement has been shown to increase testosterone 300%.

That is why people should buy from us and not the other companies (not all of them, some are very standup).

[Spartacus]

don't forget that you eat many foods (tea is a food after all) which have not been studied at all. just because someone makes tea into a pill doesn't mean the effects are different somehow, just that its easier to consume a large amount even if you are not a fan of the taste.

[geoffgarcia]

chris, I agree, I read that study you posted and several others that DO show a clear thermogenic effect above and beyond caffeine content.

I'm not saying there is anything necessarily wrong with EGCG, all I'm saying is the majority of the studies out there are done on under 30 people...and aimed at finding VERY particular things.

as an example, "Efficacy of a green tea extract" study you posted above was done on 10 people over 3 days...thats hardly representative...not to mention the fact that "Smokers, competitive athletes, and persons who engaged in intense physical activities or who had a history of weight loss were not eligible for inclusion in the study" were excluded.

The majority of the studies around thermogenics are to identify the positive impact this stuff has on energy expenditure without taking into account impact on other parts of the body over a short or long period.
Granted I just looked on pubmed and the journal and combined there are a zillion studies out there between green tea and thermogenics (like 1300ish)

I work in a computer programming environment so I might be a little biased, for me testing should press thresholds to see what combinations might cause a negative effect on an entire system...not just one small isolated area under ideal situations.

[chris mason]

That is where empirical evidence can come into play.

[Sleepr]

You really can't. I would just follow the label directions in that case.
Ok Chris, the label says to take 1-2 capsules 1 to 2x/day.
Should I still follow the label or should I take 4-6 a day like I guesstimated (44mg per capsule.....6 caps=264mg's)
If I am wrong and they are lets say 90mg a capsule, then I guess I still might be ok, since studies say that all of it may not be absorbed when taken orally, or the fact that I have not read about any significant sides associated with EGCG?