PDA

View Full Version : when to do Cardio?



ali
05-10-2004, 05:01 PM
Hi everybody.
what cardio training is the best to get rid of a goddamnit huge belly(my waist is 36...too much for a 16 year old I guess),also what time is the best to do that?I mean,how much time after I work out?I was just wondering,that I get back from gym at like 8:30 PM..so its kinda hard to go do cardio at that time..you know parents..lol..anyways,so can I do my cardio at 5:30 AM in the morning?

sifguy1980
05-10-2004, 05:25 PM
Hmmm I would do cardio after meals to burn fat...the way I see it, if I do cardio at 5:30am in the morning, and then eat at lunch and dinner.. then basically I just took whatever calories I los and gained it back.

I like to eat first, then do cardio. And I myself do 30 minutes everyday of cardio. I never seen a body become immune to cardio as it might to certain exercises.

ali
05-10-2004, 05:39 PM
do you mean dinner or mid day meal,and what cardio is the best to get rid of the fat on the abs?

Shark
05-10-2004, 05:51 PM
Before I would do anything, I would do a search.

edit:
OK, i'm gonna be nice. Cardio is best done after lifting. Saying that doing cardio in the morning is bad because you are going to eat lunch and dinner is pointless because if you do cardio at night you will then eat breakfast... get it?

Cardio can be done at any time during the day but the best would be after your workout when you have already depleated energy stores and (for me) when my heart rate is already up. Do 30 mins at your target heart rate.

If you really want to lose that gut you need to get your diet in check. Do a search on 'cutting' to learn about eating in a caloric deficit.

Vido
05-10-2004, 06:42 PM
Do cardio when you have the time. It doesn't make much difference, if any at all, what time you do it. That being said, first thing in the morning before eating and after a workout are probably the WORST times to do cardio because your body is in a very depleted state and you risk catabolism.

wleon
05-10-2004, 11:41 PM
I think catabolism is a every present problem, but for the ones who are desperate to loose the belly, I guess you got to make choices that fit your goals, I am running 40 minutes after my workout, mostly because that is the only time I can, but I am counting that after my workout I am depleted and I get to burn more fat, Muscle loss is a real posibility but I am willing to lose some muscle to lose that belly.

I am thinking to start running in the morning to maybe minimize the shock to my body

supirman
05-11-2004, 07:50 AM
I do my cardio at 7am, and my workouts at 5pm. This gives me ample time to recover from cardio to have a good workout at night. Couple that with a good caloric deficit and you'll be on your way to leanness.

JustinF
05-11-2004, 08:12 AM
sifguy--you should really do a search and try to learn some basics before handing out advice. This is not intended as a slam, but to help you out.

PiKappaWRX
05-11-2004, 08:44 AM
yea, sifguy, not to bag on you but i don't really agree with your approach of eating around 3pm in the day and then working out at night and then doing cardio. im guessing you're not giving yourself a PWO shake either because you're more concerned about waking up in the morning with a completely empty stomach. just get your diet in check and eat regularly.

as far as when to do cardio, it really doesn't matter as long as you give your body enough energy to do it. if you're gonna do it after a workout try and get something in you in between lifting and cardio. maybe bring a shake to the gym or buy one of those protein drinks that they sell. or you could bring a protein bar. i'm just saying, try to prevent catabolism, even if you're trying to get rid of a belly.

Ford Prefect
05-11-2004, 09:05 AM
A good way to avoid catabolism and still shed huge amounts of fat is to train interval sprints/wind sprints. A decent article on some routines:

http://www.testosterone.net/nation_articles/251run2.html

meltedtime
05-12-2004, 06:43 AM
I'm sorry guys but I have to strongly disagree. The absolute best time to do cardio is first thing in the morning on an empty stomach. Ali, if you are trying to burn fat you need to make your body burn off those fat stores. Sounds simple, doesn't it? Your body will burn food energy in your stomach before it will burn the energy stored in your fat cells. Hence, an empty stomach is the ideal time to do your cardio and obviously when you first awake your stomach will be empty. Don't worry too much about losing muscle. Your body will burn fat cells first unless you have been severly restricting your diet for a while. The use of an ECA stack is also something I recommend. It has a slightly anticatabolic effect (helping to preserve muscle) and will give you the energy you need for your cardio training. Don't eat for one hour after your cardio and you will begin to see results in no time.

PiKappaWRX
05-12-2004, 06:34 PM
meltedtime, i'm pretty sure u can't control whether your body will burn either fat or muscle when doing cardio. it differs among people and i'm pretty sure that you cannot directly target fat burning in cardio without losing muscle as well. if one doesn't care about muslce loss, then by all means he should follow what you said. but in many cases of the people on these forums, muscle maintenance in a largely crucial factor when cutting. do you have any websites or references to studies that would back up your ideas that your body would directly burn fat cells when doing cardio instead of muscle?

Deathwish
05-12-2004, 06:45 PM
I'ld just do HIIT whenever you can fit it in. HIIT is effective by boosting your metabolism.

PiKappaWRX
05-12-2004, 06:56 PM
i agree, i do MaxOT which is also a good workout style. i haven't tried HIIT but only hear about people getting good results from it.

Ebu
05-12-2004, 10:20 PM
the only thing with hiit is to rellly do it, ya gotta be outside. I like to just hop on a treadmill after i lift for times sake.

SalahG
05-13-2004, 01:21 AM
Hi everybody.
what cardio training is the best to get rid of a goddamnit huge belly(my waist is 36...too much for a 16 year old I guess),also what time is the best to do that?I mean,how much time after I work out?I was just wondering,that I get back from gym at like 8:30 PM..so its kinda hard to go do cardio at that time..you know parents..lol..anyways,so can I do my cardio at 5:30 AM in the morning?

For fat burning purposes, right when you get up in the morning. Drink a bottle of water, and head out for some cardio. Keep in mind, cardio burns muscle to.

aka23
05-13-2004, 10:40 AM
Hi everybody.
what cardio training is the best to get rid of a goddamnit huge belly(my waist is 36...too much for a 16 year old I guess),also what time is the best to do that?I mean,how much time after I work out?I was just wondering,that I get back from gym at like 8:30 PM..so its kinda hard to go do cardio at that time..you know parents..lol..anyways,so can I do my cardio at 5:30 AM in the morning?

If you want to minimize catabolism, then do not work out in the morning on an empty stomach. Protein usage as fuel is closely tied to low glycogen levels, especially liver glycogen. Working out in the morning on an empty stomach is about the worst possible conditions other than extended fasting, in terms of catabolism. After an overnight fast, your liver glycogen levels may be nearly depleted. Your muscles may have a lot of glycogen left, but your brain cannot cannot use the muscle glycogen, so there is an increased risk of the body catabolizing muscle to get fuel for the brain. The amount of this risk depends on the type of cardio among other things. Higher intensity or longer duration increases risk because there is a greater demand for glycogen. Total fat loss (not just during activity) increases with the intensity or duration of the cardio. After an overnight fast, you are likely to have reduced endurance and more fatigue so both intensity and duration may decrease. If your goal is to lose fat while preserving muscle, then doing cardio on an empty stomach or any other time when glycogen levels are low (for example immediately after weightlifting) is probably a bad idea.

If your goal is to get rid of that last little bit of stubborn fat, then the increased fat mobilization related to the low glycogen levels may be beneficial. Many pro bodybuilders do empty stomach type cardio in conjuction with various supplements that also increase fat mobilization. If you choose to workout in the morning, then such effects could be lessened by eating something beforehand, reducing intensity, and/or drugs/supplements.

sifguy1980
05-13-2004, 11:24 AM
Sorry guys if I confused anybody, I was merely giving him an idea of what I do. If you all think what I do is wrong then maybe I should look at my routine, but I guess whatever works best for each individual person is what works right?

SalahG
05-13-2004, 11:31 AM
If you want to minimize catabolism, then do not work out in the morning on an empty stomach. Protein usage as fuel is closely tied to low glycogen levels, especially liver glycogen. Working out in the morning on an empty stomach is about the worst possible conditions other than extended fasting, in terms of catabolism. After an overnight fast, your liver glycogen levels may be nearly depleted. Your muscles may have a lot of glycogen left, but your brain cannot cannot use the muscle glycogen, so there is an increased risk of the body catabolizing muscle to get fuel for the brain. The amount of this risk depends on the type of cardio among other things. Higher intensity or longer duration increases risk because there is a greater demand for glycogen. Total fat loss (not just during activity) increases with the intensity or duration of the cardio. After an overnight fast, you are likely to have reduced endurance and more fatigue so both intensity and duration may decrease. If your goal is to lose fat while preserving muscle, then doing cardio on an empty stomach or any other time when glycogen levels are low (for example immediately after weightlifting) is probably a bad idea.

If your goal is to get rid of that last little bit of stubborn fat, then the increased fat mobilization related to the low glycogen levels may be beneficial. Many pro bodybuilders do empty stomach type cardio in conjuction with various supplements that also increase fat mobilization. If you choose to workout in the morning, then such effects could be lessened by eating something beforehand, reducing intensity, and/or drugs/supplements.

True, but he said to maximize fat loss. Even know you'll lose quite some muscle to, if it's fat loss he's interested in, and not that caring of the muscle loss, than the morning on an empty stomach is best.

aka23
05-13-2004, 11:58 AM
True, but he said to maximize fat loss. Even know you'll lose quite some muscle to, if it's fat loss he's interested in, and not that caring of the muscle loss, than the morning on an empty stomach is best.

I disagree. Total fat loss (not just during activity) increases with the intensity or duration of the cardio. After an overnight fast, you are likely to have reduced endurance and more fatigue so both intensity and duration may decrease, reducing total fat loss. Based on the description in the initial post, I do not think ali's body fat is low enough to worry about things like increased moblization of fat from stubborn areas, which would increase while working out in the morning on an empty stomach.

ace dogg
05-13-2004, 12:53 PM
Do it on off days. Not in the morning on an empty stomach...any other time is fine.

Ebu
05-13-2004, 01:45 PM
aka23, would it be better to do it after weightlifting, rather than in the morning on an empty stomach? I have been getting good results with running after weightlifting myself.

aka23
05-13-2004, 02:13 PM
aka23, would it be better to do it after weightlifting, rather than in the morning on an empty stomach? I have been getting good results with running after weightlifting myself.

I think after weights would probably be better than in the morning since muscle catabolism seems more closely related to liver glycogen levels than muscle glycogen levels. It depends somewhat on your diet and your workouts.

However, in most cases I would suggest separating the two activities. The cardio may hinder recovery and muscle gains by delaying the postworkout meal and leaving your body in catabolic state. In addition you may be fatigued and not able to perform your best during the cardio, interfering with cardiovascular improvement, as well as burning fewer calories. One possible advantage to doing cardio following weighttraining, is you may have increased fat mobilization, so you burn a larger portion of fat from stubborn areas. There also may be increased fat burning during the activity. This does not mean you will lose more body fat. If you burn a larger portion of calories from fat during the cardio, then you usually burn a smaller portion of calories from fat later in the day. Similarly if you burn a larger portion of calories from glycogen during the cardio, then you usually burn a larger portion of calories from fat later in the day. In this way calorie balance becomes the primary factor that determines fat loss. If anything the higher intensity sessions that burn more glycogen would be more likely to have greater fat loss. Medium and higher intensity sessions which derive a greater portion of energy from carbs during the activity offer some fat loss benefits beyond calorie balance including AMPK activation and glycogen depletion, both of which enhance nutrient partitioning. Lower intensity situations may be better suited for situations in which little glycogen is available.

The best solution depends on your goals, the exercise intensities, and the exercise durations. I would suggest separating longer amounts of cardio from weights by at least a few hours and a meal. It would be even better if you seperated it by 8-12 hours or did it on alternate days. I think a short cardio warmup/cooldown before/after weights is fine. This helps reduce injury and may improve performance.

SalahG
05-13-2004, 02:40 PM
I disagree. Total fat loss (not just during activity) increases with the intensity or duration of the cardio. After an overnight fast, you are likely to have reduced endurance and more fatigue so both intensity and duration may decrease, reducing total fat loss. Based on the description in the initial post, I do not think ali's body fat is low enough to worry about things like increased moblization of fat from stubborn areas, which would increase while working out in the morning on an empty stomach.

I was a boxer and a wrestler for over 8 years, since I was very young. This is the first year I am not an those two sports because I am getting ready for College Football at the University of Hawaii. I trained at the Olympic Training Center in Colorado Springs for Jr. Olympics boxing, and everymorning, before we ate breakfast, in order to cut body weight, (both fat and some muscle), we would run 4 to 5 miles. I did not have ANY problems with intensity, and as long as your not a wimp, you shouldn't either. It is all in the head.

WillKuenzel
05-13-2004, 02:53 PM
I was a boxer and a wrestler for over 8 years, since I was very young. This is the first year I am not an those two sports because I am getting ready for College Football at the University of Hawaii. I trained at the Olympic Training Center in Colorado Springs for Jr. Olympics boxing, and everymorning, before we ate breakfast, in order to cut body weight, (both fat and some muscle), we would run 4 to 5 miles. I did not have ANY problems with intensity, and as long as your not a wimp, you shouldn't either. It is all in the head.LOL, I'll agree with that but the thing is, the orginal poster probably doesn't have all that athletic background and might not get that intense at 5:30 in the morning. You have you kind of tailor your thinking for the average person, not your olympic trained individual with years of experience and endurance.

For the average person, I'd just recommend doing it when you can. If its in the morning, get a quick, small bite to eat. A small cup of oats or something. That's not going to make a big difference in whether you are going to be burning that much fat or not. For the average person, its the lasting effects of cardio that make the difference and not really the immediate calorie burning.

If you don't have time in the morning but want to do it after you workout, then drink 1/2 to 3/4 your post workout shake then get on the treadmill or whatever. That way you have started to replinish some of the lost energy and can still get up to a moderate amount of intensity that will help with the fat loss.

Through and through, for the average individual looking to lose weight, cardio isn't going to be as key as fixing the diet. Getting that set first will make the most improvements. From there, add cardio where you can but not at the expense of weight training. My 2.

aka23
05-13-2004, 03:38 PM
I was a boxer and a wrestler for over 8 years, since I was very young. This is the first year I am not an those two sports because I am getting ready for College Football at the University of Hawaii. I trained at the Olympic Training Center in Colorado Springs for Jr. Olympics boxing, and everymorning, before we ate breakfast, in order to cut body weight, (both fat and some muscle), we would run 4 to 5 miles. I did not have ANY problems with intensity, and as long as your not a wimp, you shouldn't either. It is all in the head.

It is common knowledge that fasting interferes with performance during intense exercise, whether you are a wimp or not. The first relevant study I came across on pubmed is http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3571097&dopt=Abstract . This study involved "well-trained male cyclists" (not wimps). 3 groups did a 15-minute perfomance exercise trial after a 8-12 hour fast. The group that ate 200g of carbs 4 hours before the exercise had a 22% improvement in distance traveled. The group that ate 45g of carb 5 min had a 11% improvement in distance traveled. Fasting also reduces endurance, so you are likely to become fatigued and stop earlier. A summary of related endurance studies is listed at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8248683 . Furthermore, if you were able to maintain a high intensity, then you would increase the risk of muscle catabolism. Intense activity increases demands for glycogen. When little glycogen is available there is increased risk of the body catabolizing muscle for energy.

The fact that you trained that way does not mean it is optimal or that you would not have had better methods with other training methods. My gym is full of people who do cardio in the morning on an empty stomach. I am not surprised that some athletic programs follow similar procedures. It is my understanding that modern boxers emphasize interval work, as it better simulates the energy demands of the activity. Performing a high-impact activity like running on sequential days could lead to numerous other problems, especially for persons with a higher body mass index who are not experienced runners. Another thing to consider is that some of the athletes may have been lean and struggling with stubborn body fat. As I mentioned earlier, early morning cardio can help mobilize this stubborn fat.

I am an experienced athlete as well and have been on two college teams, one of which was ranked #1 in the nation. I am not aware of any teams at my college that encouraged doing workouts while fasting.

SalahG
05-13-2004, 05:42 PM
It is common knowledge that fasting interferes with performance during intense exercise, whether you are a wimp or not. The first relevant study I came across on pubmed is http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3571097&dopt=Abstract . This study involved "well-trained male cyclists" (not wimps). 3 groups did a 15-minute perfomance exercise trial after a 8-12 hour fast. The group that ate 200g of carbs 4 hours before the exercise had a 22% improvement in distance traveled. The group that ate 45g of carb 5 min had a 11% improvement in distance traveled. Fasting also reduces endurance, so you are likely to become fatigued and stop earlier. A summary of related endurance studies is listed at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8248683 . Furthermore, if you were able to maintain a high intensity, then you would increase the risk of muscle catabolism. Intense activity increases demands for glycogen. When little glycogen is available there is increased risk of the body catabolizing muscle for energy.

The fact that you trained that way does not mean it is optimal or that you would not have had better methods with other training methods. My gym is full of people who do cardio in the morning on an empty stomach. I am not surprised that some athletic programs follow similar procedures. It is my understanding that modern boxers emphasize interval work, as it better simulates the energy demands of the activity. Performing a high-impact activity like running on sequential days could lead to numerous other problems, especially for persons with a higher body mass index who are not experienced runners. Another thing to consider is that some of the athletes may have been lean and struggling with stubborn body fat. As I mentioned earlier, early morning cardio can help mobilize this stubborn fat.

I am an experienced athlete as well and have been on two college teams, one of which was ranked #1 in the nation. I am not aware of any teams at my college that encouraged doing workouts while fasting.

Well, I'll trust world renowned olympic coaches over wannabebigforums guru aka23 lol.

WillKuenzel
05-13-2004, 06:11 PM
Salah, you might also want to look at the exact purpose of why you were doing early morning cardio like that. It have had more to do with endurance than really anything like fat or muscle burning. Doing LSD (long slow distance) isn't all that great for fat burning, on an empty stomach or not.

These olympic coaches might have had other ideas for the intent of the morning exercise. In light of more recent studies as well, they might not be doing the same thing anymore. How long ago were you there doing that?

..and as people have been saying, when you are at the point that you are an olympic athlete or anybody else with sub-6% bodyfat, it might become a better idea. But do you think that for the average individual they are going to have the dedication and intensity to get a decent fat burning cardio session out after having fasted for 8 or so hours?

SalahG
05-13-2004, 06:26 PM
Salah, you might also want to look at the exact purpose of why you were doing early morning cardio like that. It have had more to do with endurance than really anything like fat or muscle burning. Doing LSD (long slow distance) isn't all that great for fat burning, on an empty stomach or not.

These olympic coaches might have had other ideas for the intent of the morning exercise. In light of more recent studies as well, they might not be doing the same thing anymore. How long ago were you there doing that?

..and as people have been saying, when you are at the point that you are an olympic athlete or anybody else with sub-6% bodyfat, it might become a better idea. But do you think that for the average individual they are going to have the dedication and intensity to get a decent fat burning cardio session out after having fasted for 8 or so hours?

Well, I agree and disagree. I am a firm believer that if your going to do something, go all out, don't get in to weight lifting, body building, chess, checkers, even collecting star wars toys, unless your going to give it your best. On the other hand, to each his own. It all really comes down to if it's what's best for you, and what your body feels like. So, if he can't cut it in the morning, than do it in the evening. Or whenever.

Bill Mertz was our boxing coach at WestSide Boxing Club, in Portland, Oregon. He would take us down to Colorado springs(about 10 kids out of the 50 member team), and we would train with all of the coaches there for about a month to a month and a half. This was during middle school, so 4-7 years ago, 6th through 8th grade. I liked it, because by the time we got back it was time for football, and no kids trained seriously for youth football, and I'd come in to camp in shape and ready to rock while everyone else was having trouble sprinting two gassers.

But to finish off this arguement, do cardio whenever you want man, if your not taking it to the highest level, and just want to burn some calories and keep the blood pressure low, do it when you feel like it.

Augury
05-13-2004, 07:16 PM
One simple thing that noone seems to have mentioned yet is about the food eaten.

If you have a set diet for the day and thus a set number of calories (on a predetermined ration of prot/carb/fat) to be grazed over 4-5-6-7 meals for that day then what is the big issue with eating some of those set calories before the run?

Its not like anyone is saying...well, you are going to eat all this food today...oh and before you run have some extra food. Its the same food, from your well planned diet. You are just shifting a bit of it to the pre-run period where it will be burned up and as aka says...possibly prevent catabolism and muscle scavenging. There is no sense at all to saying you dont want to eat before the run...you would only eat the same food later in the day anyhow. Why stress your body like that? eat - run - get a higher met rate for the day. job done.

Aug.

ace dogg
05-13-2004, 09:47 PM
One simple thing that noone seems to have mentioned yet is about the food eaten.

If you have a set diet for the day and thus a set number of calories (on a predetermined ration of prot/carb/fat) to be grazed over 4-5-6-7 meals for that day then what is the big issue with eating some of those set calories before the run?

Its not like anyone is saying...well, you are going to eat all this food today...oh and before you run have some extra food. Its the same food, from your well planned diet. You are just shifting a bit of it to the pre-run period where it will be burned up and as aka says...possibly prevent catabolism and muscle scavenging. There is no sense at all to saying you dont want to eat before the run...you would only eat the same food later in the day anyhow. Why stress your body like that? eat - run - get a higher met rate for the day. job done.

Aug.

Good post.