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carlossalsa8
05-17-2004, 01:45 PM
It might me a dumb question but here we go:

Who should be eating more, an athlete ( soccer player, or a runner ) or a bodyduilder? Cuz I have a friend who is into the bodybulding and he trains for an hour everyday, and I train for an hour to two hours everyday - run alotttt-( except saturdays); he eats more than I do. He told me I should be eating the double he eats but just want any comments on this.

Another question:

Any of you guys know how many cals I would burn by running 8 miles ( not stopping- 7:00 minutes a mile) after the eighth mile I rest for 5 minutes and run 2 miles- sprinting and jogging- 30 sec sprint and 30 sec jog. I rest again for 5 minutes and then I just do a mile at a faster pace. Then I go I just do short sprints with the ball and do some low intensity exersice with the soccer ball. I do all these by my self cuz soccer season just ended. Anywyas I know it is a lot of work but I just want to know the # of cals lost. Any stimate. Thanks.

aka23
05-17-2004, 02:00 PM
It might me a dumb question but here we go:

Who should be eating more, an athlete ( soccer player, or a runner ) or a bodyduilder? Cuz I have a friend who is into the bodybulding and he trains for an hour everyday, and I train for an hour to two hours everyday - run alotttt-( except saturdays); he eats more than I do. He told me I should be eating the double he eats but just want any comments on this..

There are too many variables to draw any definite conclusions. It depends on their metabolism, activity level, body mass+composition, and weight gain/loss goals. If you are satisfied with your weight and your weight is stable, then I would suggest maintaining your calorie balance. If you wish to gain or lose weight, then I would suggest adjusting your calorie balance.

A table of calorie estimates for running and other activities is available at http://www.discoverfitness.com/MET_value_table_.html

Shao-LiN
05-17-2004, 02:26 PM
The person who should eat more is the one who needs more calories for his/her particular goal. If you and your friend are totally identical, genetically/physically/activity (which is not possible), then you might have an argument for who might need to eat more, but you guys aren't, so it's not as cut and paste as bodybuilders need to eat more.

carlossalsa8
05-17-2004, 03:42 PM
In working with athletes such as soccer players I have found the majority dont eat enough. They still hold the misconceptions about nutrition due to the influence of the media. However, the points aka23 brings out are good ones. Also remember that the ratio of macro-nutrients would be different for a soccer player when compared to a bodybuilder.



Based in your opinion you said the majority of soccer players do not eat enough. What would be enough for you in your opinion?

carlossalsa8
05-17-2004, 03:53 PM
this is what my friend told me:

Lets say you run for one hour and a bodybuilder works out the same amount of time as you do. It would be logical you will lose more calories. The only different is that you would be using the carbs as energy and the bodybuilder would be using the pro and fat instead. You need more carbs and a bodybuilder needs more protein. So the one who burns more calories, that is the one who needs more food. In other words since you would lose more cals, you need to eat more.

aka23
05-17-2004, 04:15 PM
Lets say you run for one hour and a bodybuilder works out the same amount of time as you do. It would be logical you will lose more calories. The only different is that you would be using the carbs as energy and the bodybuilder would be using the pro and fat instead. You need more carbs and a bodybuilder needs more protein. So the one who burns more calories, that is the one who needs more food. In other words since you would lose more cals, you need to eat more.

That quote is full of inaccurate statements. The runner would probably burn more calories during the activity than the bodybuilder. If the bodybuilder had a much greater LBM than the runner, then the bodybuilder might burn more calories during the activity. The bodybuilder may require more calories than the runner for repair/recovery and/or metabolism increases. It depends on the type of training. This makes it difficult to estimate how calorie balance would change as a whole.

The runner would primarily burn fat+carbs during the activity. The ratio of the two depends on intensity. The bodybuilder would primarily burn carbs+CP/ATP during the activity. He may burn fat between sets. The ratio depends on the specifics of the training. When more fat is burned during the activity, less carbs are burned later in the day. When more carbs are burned during the activity, less fat is burned later in the day. In this way calorie balance, rather than fuel source, primarily dictates fat loss.

Both groups would require more protein than a sedentary person. The bodybuilder may require more protein than the runner would for repair/recovery . I believe that most bodybuilders overestimate their protein needs. Lemon's studies suggested that strength athletes require ~0.8g/lb and endurance athletes require ~0.6g/lb.

carlossalsa8
05-17-2004, 04:48 PM
Do you have any web-site to go and read the Lemon's study?

Great info guys thanks.

Last question: How does the body know which fuel of energy to use? Lets say I eat 1000 cals from fat, 500 cals of carbs and 500 cals of pro. Is my body gonna use the energy coming from fat first since I have more cals from fats, or is it gonna still using the carbs first and then the fat? Or both at the same time?

aka23
05-17-2004, 05:07 PM
Do you have any web-site to go and read the Lemon's study?

Lemon has done many studies on this subject. You can find them by going to www.pubmed.com and searching for the phrase "Lemon PW protein." Some links and quotes are:

-- Here are some studies on bodybuilders and protein: --

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=3356636
"Experiments were performed on six elite bodybuilders, six elite endurance athletes, and six sedentary controls during a 10-day period of normal protein intake followed by a 10-day period of altered protein intake. The nitrogen balance data revealed that bodybuilders required 1.12 times and endurance athletes required 1.67 times more daily protein than sedentary controls. Lean body mass (density) was maintained in bodybuilders consuming 1.05 g protein.kg-1.day-1."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=1400008
"These data indicate that, during the early stages of intensive bodybuilding training, PRO needs are approximately 100% greater than current recommendations but that PROIN increases from 1.35 to 2.62 g.kg-1.day-1 do not enhance muscle mass/strength gains, at least during the 1st mo of training."


-- Here are some more general recommendations: --

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9841962&dopt=Abstract
"Those involved in strength training might need to consume as much as 1.6 to 1.7 g protein x kg(-1) x day(-1) (approximately twice the current RDA) while those undergoing endurance training might need about 1.2 to 1.6 g x kg(-1) x day(-1) (approximately 1.5 times the current RDA). Future longitudinal studies are needed to confirm these recommendations and asses whether these protein intakes can enhance exercise performance. Despite the frequently expressed concern about adverse effects of high protein intake, there is no evidence that protein intakes in the range suggested will have adverse effects in healthy individuals."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=7550257&dopt=Abstract
"The current recommended daily allowance (RDA) for protein is based primarily on data derived from subjects whose lifestyles were essentially sedentary. More recent well-designed studies that have employed either the classic nitrogen balance approach or the more technically difficult metabolic tracer technique indicate that overall protein needs (as well as needs for some specific individual amino acids) are probably increased for those who exercise regularly. Although the roles of the additionally required dietary protein and amino acids are likely to be quite different for those who engage in endurance exercise (protein required as an auxiliary fuel source) as opposed to strength exercise (amino acids required as building blocks for muscle development), it appears that both groups likely will benefit from diets containing more protein than the current RDA of 0.8 g.kg-1.day-1. Strength athletes probably need about 1.4-1.8 g.kg-1.day-1 and endurance athletes about 1.2-1.4 g.kg-1.day-1."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed&cmd=Retrieve&list_uids=1895363&dopt=Abstract
"Although definitive dietary recommendations for various athletic groups must await future study, the weight of current evidence suggests that strength or speed athletes should consume about 1.2-1.7 g protein/kg body weight.d-1 (approximately 100-212% of current recommendations) and endurance athletes about 1.2-1.4 g/kg.d-1 (approximately 100-175% of current recommendations). These quantities of protein can be obtained from a diet which consists of 12-15% energy from protein, unless total energy intake is insufficient. There is no evidence that protein intakes in this range will cause any adverse effects. Future studies with large sample sizes, adequate controls, and performance as well as physiological/biochemical measures are necessary to fine tune these recommendations"



Last question: How does the body know which fuel of energy to use? Lets say I eat 1000 cals from fat, 500 cals of carbs and 500 cals of pro. Is my body gonna use the energy coming from fat first since I have more cals from fats, or is it gonna still using the carbs first and then the fat? Or both at the same time?

Your body is almost always burning a mixture of fat and glucose/gylcogen. When at rest the average person gets about 65% of calories from fat and 35% of calories from glycogen/glucose. Your body uses a mixture of fat, glucose, and glycogen as fuel throughout lower intensity exercise. In portions of higher intensity exercise (HIIT), nearly 100% of the fuel is glucose/glycogen. The proportions gradually change as duration or intensity changes. A small portion of energy comes from proteins during cardio, but this amount is usually insignificant. It usually only becomes significant when glycogen levels get very low. For the most part, the small amount of protein used comes from amino acid stores. If the stores are low or in certain other special situations, the body may catabolize muscle.

When glycogen stores decrease as the exercise continues, the body utilizes a larger portion of fat as fuel. Costill's studies of treadmill running at 65% VO2 max found fat oxidation accounted for 39% of the energy at the start of the exercise and 67% of the energy 2 hours later. Ahlborg found similar results of increasing fat usage when the exercise continued for 4 hours (at a lower intensity). One could expect a similar fat burning increase if the aerobic cardio (not HIIT) followed weightlifting of the glycogen-depleting type (long sets, short rest). Carb/protein/fat ratios of your diet affect glycogen levels and fuel usage during exercise in a similar way.

Using protein as fuel and muscle catabolism is dependent on exercise intensity, exercise duration, diet, when exercise is performed, and previous training, among other things. I think it should generally be insignifcant unless the exercise is done in extreme conditions. It may become significant in extreme conditions that deplete glycogen levels, especially liver glycogen. Liver glycogen levels fall in a more linear manner than muscle glycogen. Muscle glycogen levels do not drop as quickly at lower levels, as fat usage increases.

RicPhoenix
05-17-2004, 05:41 PM
Thanks for the great information AKA23.

carlossalsa8
05-18-2004, 03:10 PM
Thanks for the info. Great knowledge you have man. Would a person know when the glucose/glycogen decreases? Cuz when I am training at a high intensity which last for about 45 min to 1 hour, after I finished the training, I just feel so out of energy ( out of breath too)but when I start training again energy just comes back after a matter of minutes. Is it cuz in the 1st session of training ( high intensity) I used all the glycogen stored and when I started the second session since there was no more energy the body just started to utilized the fat?

aka23
05-19-2004, 09:25 AM
Thanks for the info. Great knowledge you have man. Would a person know when the glucose/glycogen decreases? Cuz when I am training at a high intensity which last for about 45 min to 1 hour, after I finished the training, I just feel so out of energy ( out of breath too)but when I start training again energy just comes back after a matter of minutes. Is it cuz in the 1st session of training ( high intensity) I used all the glycogen stored and when I started the second session since there was no more energy the body just started to utilized the fat?

In the session you described, your body would be burning both fats and glycogen/glucose throughout the session. As the session continued and your glycogen stores decreased, the ratio of fats to glycogen/glucose would increase. Your glycogen/glucose decreases all day, even when you are sleeping. When sleeping, the body primarily depends on blood glucose and liver glycogen. During activity, muscle glycogen becomes more important. The most rapid glycogen depletion occurs at very high intensities that leave you out of breath. One can feel the lactate accumulation that occurs with such intensities, but it is difficult to feel your glycogen levels unless they get low enough to cause symptoms.

It is very difficult for the body to use "all the glycogen stored," unless you are on a diet involving a low carb/cal phase. I believe Hultman & Bosch's research suggested roughly 50% muscle glycogen depletion after 6+ hours at 50% VO2Max, ~2hours 40min at 70% VO2Max, ~1 hour 40 min at 75% VO2Max, ~1 hour at 85% VO2Max, ~30 minutes at 120%VO2Max (sprint HIIT), and ~15 minutes at 150% VO2Max (sprint HIIT).

When you take a break between sessions, your heart rate decreases, your body gets a chance to clear out blood lactate, refill ATP/CP, etc. This makes the workout feel easier for a period, but glycogen will not be significantly refilled until your post-workout meal.

carlossalsa8
05-19-2004, 02:05 PM
Clear!! Thanks aka23. I appreciate you gave some time of yours to answer my questions.

Carlos.