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Life4ever
10-14-2001, 10:04 PM
I am intersted in Tyrska and everyones thoughts on comparing the two.....Which one do you think is more detrimental to your health? and why/

syntekz
10-14-2001, 10:10 PM
Why would red meat be harmful?

ToysRusKid
10-14-2001, 10:44 PM
the good of each far outweighs the bad. red meat may be high in fat and cholesterol, but it's the best source of protein, alot of iron and other nutrients. supposedly raises testosterone as well. cholesterol levels are held in check by all the good stuff you should be including in your diet anyways (oatmeal, fruit), as well as exercise. soy protein is gay, not much of a muscle builder, and lowers testosterone levels, but your should still incluse it in your diet. (cmon who wants to thrash me on this opinion?:))

Marcel
10-14-2001, 10:47 PM
Buy some really lean red meat

ToysRusKid
10-14-2001, 11:04 PM
no way! i make myself eat way too much crap i don't like just for health and body benefits. I'm not about to buy some lean and tasteless beef. I live for tri-tip roasts, t-bones, london broil........*salivating*......

Marcel
10-14-2001, 11:15 PM
LOL and tri tips are awesome

xraygirl
10-14-2001, 11:37 PM
I'm kinda partial to grilled rib-eye.

Tryska
10-15-2001, 07:00 AM
*jumps on soapbox*

i think soy is more detrimental to your health. eat lean, preferably organic red meat instead. oh and why do i thinks it's worse....those phytoestrogens bother the hell out of me....fermented soy products are cool, because they've been processed long enough to break down all those wierd chemicals...but tofu and the like? uh uh..no way.

hemants
10-15-2001, 09:29 AM
Both have their merits and their limitations.

Red meat has a BV of 70-80 (beef highest). If you can get meat that is low in saturated fat then you're fine. In the long run, excess red meat is linked to colo-rectal cancer but I believe this can be counteracted with a high fibre intake.

Soy has a BV of 72. There are some reports of soy lowering testosterone levels in the prostrate but these effects have shown to be tissue specific. Soy also has cancer fighting properties.

As with most things, variety and moderation are a good idea.

/begin added twist to the plot

Smoking is kind of like the opposite of Soy. It causes cancer and raises testosterone. Does that mean we should all go out and smoke?

/end added twist

:)

:D

Wizard
10-15-2001, 10:24 AM
Soy,even in moderation,won't do any good to any man who wants to have high testosterone levels.Red meat for me.

hemants
10-15-2001, 12:40 PM
I haven't seen any credible research to support the Soy/testosterone myth.

In fact, many have postulated the opposite. Since phytoestrogens in Soy bind to Estrogen recepters (which men have very few to begin with) they actually inhibit the activity of estrogen's.

http://www.maxsportsmag.com/science/issue12/12s3.htm

Maki Riddington
10-15-2001, 06:44 PM
I disagree on this whole notion that Soy is evil.
First I would like to see some studies that prove that this plant protein is evil.

If anything Tryska, soy for woman is great, especially for woman going through menapouse.

When referring to soy it is the soy bean itself that should be looked at, especially the phytoesterogens. These are plant compounds that contain estrogen-like mlecules that have the ability to occupy the same receptor sites as our own hormones.
These phyoesterogens prevent the binding of more potent estrogens.

Looking further you will find that it is the isoflavins that hold the majic to soy.
There are many isoflavins that soy contains but there are 3 main ones that are benificial.
Genestein,Diadzein,Glycitin.

Some of the beneifts of Soy isolates are:

It can increase metabolic rate by increasing thyroid production
It has been found to lowering the insilun to glucagon ratio
It can inhibit cardiovascular disease by reducing platelet aggregation and the oxidation of LDL's
It can act as a natural diretic

The key to choosing a good Soy product lies in the manafacturing of this product. Choosing a Soy product that has used water instead of alcohol to extract the soy protein isolate is key.
Also it will help if you choose a Non GMO Soy product,
that stands for Non Genetically Modified Organisims.

Wizard
10-16-2001, 04:39 AM
http://www.testosterone.net/html/body_143soy.html

We're even now.

Tryska
10-16-2001, 06:09 AM
no disrespect maki mak...but i am going to have to categorically disagree with your points.....i don't feel like typing it all out...but if you are interested, here is a site that goes into each aspect of soy in relative detail with accompanying studies.

SoyistheDevil.com (http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/)

hemants
10-16-2001, 06:47 AM
LMAO at BlackAlpha and Tryska, I said CREDIBLE research.

BlackAlpha - surely you're not basing your opinion on an article in testosterone magazine?

Tryska - I went to just one of the links in that website and the discussion was about a carcinogenic contaminant called 3-MCPD that is found in Soy SAUCE. Guess what? the same contaminant is found in higher quanitities in bread and crackers. www.soyisthedevil.com? You've got to do better than that.

I remain open minded...but like I said, credible research would be more convincing; you can find internet information to claim almost anything

YatesNightBlade
10-16-2001, 06:53 AM
www.hemants.isgay.com

I see what ya mean !!! :eek:

Tryska
10-16-2001, 06:53 AM
well there are an awful lot of studies on that site hemant. the purpose of it isn't to talk about bread and crackers. If there are carcinogens in those as well, so be it. You'll have to come with something better then that, for me to change my opinion. There are studies there from several highly reputable journals, double-blind and epidemiological studies there, etc. You can't possibly think I'm gonna let you discredit all the information on that site, just because crackers contain carcinogens too.

I'm tired of stepping on this soapbox repeatedly. If y'all wanna eat soy, more power to you. Howeve,r i think the way it is consumed in the western world today, in the amounts it is cosumed, and the "health values" attributed to it, are WRONG.


ps - IMO soy sauce and other fermented soybean products are the safest of the array out there.


oh and one last thing...Maki Mak....i would suggest Maca as a hormone treatment for women, before suggesting any type of phytoestrogen for menopause. the risks become too high for becoming Estrogen-Dominant..which causes it's own problems...not to mention the increased risk of susceptibility to hormone dependent cancers (IE - breast cancer)

hemants
10-16-2001, 07:04 AM
www.yates.isgay.com

Wow the internet is a great tool ;)

Tryska, I'll continue reading the site for CREDIBLE references, perhaps you could point one out, but the very name of the web site has me skeptical.

Tryska
10-16-2001, 07:11 AM
there's several, but I can't paste links due to the frame-setup of the site. while your bs'ing and trying to discredit a site you haven't full read through, you might want to click on some of the links, and do your own research....;)

hemants
10-16-2001, 07:30 AM
Ok, here's what I did. I went to the links section to see what credible references there might be.

I was pleased to see that the American Acedemy of Pediatrics was on the list and IS a peer reviewed journal so it would certainly have some credibility.

Here is are the conclusions from one of the AAP links.

"CONCLUSIONS AND RECOMMENDATIONS

In term infants whose nutritional needs are not being met from maternal breast milk or cow milk-based formulas, isolated soy protein-based formulas are safe and effective alternatives to provide appropriate nutrition for normal growth and development.

Isolated soy protein-based formula has no advantage over cow milk protein-based formula as a supplement for the breastfed infant.

Because soy protein-based formulas are lactose-free, they are appropriate for use in infants with galactosemia and hereditary lactase deficiency.

Parents seeking a vegetarian-based diet for a term infant can be advised to use isolated soy protein-based formula.

Most previously well infants with acute gastroenteritis can be managed after rehydration with continued use of human breast milk or standard dilutions of cow milk-based formulas. Isolated soy protein-based formulas are indicated when lactose intolerance has been documented.

The routine use of isolated soy protein-based formula has no proven value in the prevention or management of infantile colic.
The routine use of isolated soy protein-based formula has no proven value in the prevention of atopic disease in healthy or high-risk infants.

Infants with documented cow milk protein-induced enteropathy or enterocolitis frequently are as sensitive to soy protein and should not be given isolated soy protein-based formula routinely.
They should be provided formula derived from hydrolyzed protein or synthetic amino acid.

Most infants with documented ige-mediated allergy to cow milk protein will do well on isolated soy protein-based formula.
Soy protein-based formulas are not designed or recommended for preterm infants who weigh <1800 g.

COMMITTEE ON NUTRITION, 1996 TO 1997
William J. Klish, MD, Chair
Susan S. Baker, MD
William J. Cochran, MD
Carlos A. Flores, MD
Michael K. Georgieff, MD
Marc S. Jacobson, MD
Alan M. Lake, MD"

Once again, it seems like they are including the American Academy of Pediatrics to lend credibility to an otherwise hyped up web site yet when you actually read what the AAP says, you don't find the devil at all.

Dissappointing, I was sooo looking forward to meeting the devil.

;)

hemants
10-16-2001, 07:34 AM
BTW I don't find this type of information exercise useless at all.

One thing I did come across in all this reading is that for a male, you should worry more about the ACTUAL ESTROGEN that results from just 10 lbs of excess body fat than the PHYTOESTROGENS which are contained in Soy.

Tryska
10-16-2001, 07:52 AM
and then there's this from the lancet.....(which is the premier med journal IMO)

Exposure of infants to phyto-oestrogens from soy-based infant formula
Setchell KD, Zimmer-Nechemias L, Cai J, Heubi JE. Lancet 1997 Jul 5 350:9070 23-7.
Abstract
BACKGROUND: The isoflavones genistein, daidzein, and their glycosides, found in high concentrations in soybeans and soy-protein foods, may have beneficial effects in the prevention or treatment of many hormone-dependent diseases. Because these bioactive phyto-oestrogens possess a wide range of hormonal and non-hormonal activities, it has been suggested that adverse effects may occur in infants fed soy-based formulas.
METHODS: To evaluate the extent of infant exposure to phyto-oestrogens from soy formula, the isoflavone composition of 25 randomly selected samples from five major brands of commercially available soy-based infant formulas were analysed, and the plasma concentrations of genistein and daidzein, and the intestinally derived metabolite, equol, were compared in 4-month-old infants fed exclusively soy-based infant formula (n = 7), cow-milk formula (n = 7), or human breast-milk (n = 7). FINDINGS: All of the soy formulas contained mainly glycosides of genistein and daidzein, and the total isoflavone content was similar among the five formulas analysed and was related to the proportion of soy isolate used in their manufacture. From the concentrations of isoflavones in these formulas (means 32-47 micrograms/mL), the typical daily volume of milk consumed, and average bodyweight, a 4-month-old infant fed soy formula would be exposed to 28-47 per day, or about 4.5-8.0 mg/kg bodyweight per day, of total isoflavones. Mean (SD) plasma concentrations of genistein and daidzein in the seven infants fed soy-based formulas were 684 (443) ng/mL and 295 (60) ng/mL, respectively, which was significantly greater (p < 0.05) than in the infants fed either cow-milk formulas (3.2 [0.7] and 2.1 [0.3] ng/mL), or human breast-milk (2.8 [0.7] and 1.4 [0.1] ng/mL), and an order of magnitude higher per bodyweight than typical plasma concentrations of adults consuming soy foods.

INTERPRETATION: The daily exposure of infants to isoflavones in soy infant-formulas is 6-11 fold higher on a bodyweight basis than the dose that has hormonal effects in adults consuming soy foods. Circulating concentrations of isoflavones in the seven infants fed soy-based formula were 13000-22000 times higher than plasma oestradiol concentrations in early life, and may be sufficient to exert biological effects, whereas the contribution of isoflavones from breast-milk and cow-milk is negligible.

hemants
10-16-2001, 08:31 AM
Good to know. Thanks. :)

I think that it would be useful if there were ANY credible information on that website or in Lancet that was conclusive and relevant for adult bodybuilders.

I remain open minded.... ;)

Tryska
10-16-2001, 08:46 AM
well an open mind is always good.....

IMO, the estrogenic effects on males is enough of an impact on Bodybuilding. But you should of course, arrive at your own conclusions.

hemants
10-16-2001, 09:09 AM
Do you mean the effects of blocking estrogen receptor cites that prevent actual estrogen from having an effect or something else claimed in testosterone magazine?

;)

Tryska
10-16-2001, 09:13 AM
i mean the increased blood estradiol levels, actually. if soy isoflavones work as HRT for menopausal women, why wouldn't it be like introducing exogenous estrogen to men? It obviously doesn't block estrogen receptors in women...

hemants
10-16-2001, 09:16 AM
I'll believe it when I see ANY CREDIBLE RESEARCH AT ALL.

;)

Tryska
10-16-2001, 09:26 AM
well i'm not arguing this anymore. I've found enough research to satisfy me (which is actually pretty hard to do). If you want to see more "credible" research to satisfy yourself...you'll have to find it. :)

hemants
10-16-2001, 09:40 AM
In other words you have NO CREDIBLE RESEARCH that you are able to share with us?

tuttut

Every doctor I have ever spoken to says Soy is good for you, testosterone magazine and www.soyisthedevil.com says soy is evil.

Like I said, I remain open minded to credible research and/or expert opinions.

:D

Tryska
10-16-2001, 09:54 AM
are you trying to pull me into an argument?

i told you i'm done. IMO, Soy is evil. that is all. believe what you choose, and allow me the freedom to stick by my beliefs, without harassment. time will tell what is right and what's not.

hemants
10-16-2001, 10:06 AM
No I'm just trying to determine whether your personal belief has any merits. That IS why we are here right, to learn from each other?

"I paid for my argument and I'm going to get it"

"I'm sorry, this is abuse, arguments are down the hall"

;)

Tryska
10-16-2001, 10:10 AM
my personal beliefs shouldn't be judged one way or the other. I personally think you have your head up your a$$ with regards to Doctor's opinions being golden (sorry Delphi), but then it's also possible I've been screwed over by more docs then you have. But again... that's just an opinion. I've provided information that I found quite useful- whether you believe it or not is up to you. I've extrapolated enough for me to believe soy f*cking sucks. If you don't feel that way cool.

hemants
10-16-2001, 10:17 AM
On one hand you're saying it's just your opinion and that it shouldn't be judged but at the same time you ARE trying to convince others of your opinion with the information you are providing.

I am not judging your beliefs but the information you have provided does not lend ANY credible support to your beliefs as far as I have seen. Nor has the information that Black Alpha provided.

Can doctor's be wrong, absolutely, but I think it's more likely that peer reviewed journals such as JAMA are going to be correct than testosterone magazine or www.soyisevil.com

I'm sure most would agree.

:rolleyes: :cool:

the doc
10-16-2001, 10:28 AM
most likely consumption of a small-moderate amount of soy products would have little effects. Certainly one would not want to have it as the centerpiece of one's diet.

I consume a protein powder that is 20% soy xt powder
I haven't developed any ovaries yet! ;)

Tryska
10-16-2001, 10:30 AM
i wouldn't. but i've also seen them be blatantly wrong before. you'll have to fogive me, but i have a strong distrust for the allopathic community. as for convincing people of my beliefs.....I actually didn't want to get into this full-blown discussion, but when i see stuff that is blatantly dangerous mis-information..such as phytoestrogens are healthy for your thyroid, or that women are being done a service with exogenous Hormone Replacement Therapy from soy isoflavones, I gotta speak up, because i know this isn't true, and can do potentially more harm then good...and has.

Tryska
10-16-2001, 10:34 AM
and doc...I would agree that small to moderate consumption isn't bad....but there are women out there on the soy bandwagon, who are consuming it as the mainstay of their diet, and then wondering why they are becoming infertile, their skin is breaking out, and they are gaining weight like there's no tomorrow. I've got a couple of vegetarian associates like that. One is blatantly estrogen-dominant and it is wreaking havoc on her, yet her doctor is telling her eat soy, eat soy, the phytoestrogens are good for you. Yet she's not getting any better.

the doc
10-16-2001, 10:40 AM
hmmm.
i would agree that soy estrogens and anti nutrients are deliterious in large amounts. Certainly the soy plant has evolved this as a defense against grazing on its seeds.
I also agree that the traditional medical community is NOT the source of information i follow with regard to diet and nutrition.
I can't believe they still push that american heart association diet on every one telling them to eat as little fat as possible whilst overconsuming refined starches

Tryska
10-16-2001, 10:45 AM
:thumbup:

that pretty much sums it up for me too.

hemants
10-16-2001, 11:09 AM
"when i see stuff that is blatantly dangerous mis-information..such as phytoestrogens are healthy for your thyroid, or that women are being done a service with exogenous Hormone Replacement Therapy from soy isoflavones, I gotta speak up, because i know this isn't true, "

No offence Tryska but again, you are taking what are your beliefs and trying to pass them off as facts. I think that is what is objectionable.

What is your definition of blatent mis-information? Something that counters your beliefs?

hemants
10-16-2001, 11:12 AM
Doc,

I think we have to distinguish between what the medical community broadcasts for general consumption (food pyramid, etc.) vs what information is available from credible research (ie. those dietary realities that we as bodybuilders have discovered to be true both through investigation and personal trial).

It's just a matter of digging deeper beyond the "rules of thumb" that the medical community tries to establish.

Gladiator
10-16-2001, 11:38 AM
It can increase metabolic rate by increasing thyroid production

I am sorry, but that is incorrect. Soy not only binds with thyroid hormones, but it otherwise interferes with the body's use of them. Therefore it can slow down the metabolism.

Tryska
10-16-2001, 11:48 AM
right on Gladiator for just jumping right in! welcome btw.


here is another link....not "credible evidence" for hemant *lol* o'm sure.....but this is a little write up, on how exactly what gladiator is referring to works:

http://www.johnleemd.net/articles/soy-01.html

and a PubMed abstract to go with:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Entrez/query?uid=9464451&form=6&db=m&Dopt=b

and another one:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Entrez/query?uid=2338464&form=6&db=m&Dopt=b

hemants
10-16-2001, 11:56 AM
Good article actually :)

Much better than the other ones ;)

Thx!

You shouldn't jump to any conclusion about hypothyroidism though, read this from the same source:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11042097&dopt=Abstract

Anyhow, we're getting off topic. What is most relevant here is the impact on serum testosterone levels I think. Anyone?

Tryska
10-16-2001, 12:01 PM
well the other site actually does reference one of these somewhere..the one fromt he doctor if i'm not mistaken..it's just hard to dig up.....

one last link you might find interesting....a letter to the FDA from the it's own Soy Experts.....again....citing several of the same studies that are on that other link:

http://abcnews.go.com/onair/2020/2020_000609_soyfdaletter_feature.html

Tryska
10-16-2001, 12:05 PM
mmm...that one is kind of sketchy to me though...how can you have a 50% reduction in TPO and not have it affect thyroid hormone levels. really unless they carried out measuring 2 weeks post TPO reduction, they wouldn't really be able to tell what the thyroid hormone levels were (in the face of that reduction).....it doesn't say they did that though.

PS - the original question is btwn red meat and soy - which is more detrimental to your health. No mention of serum testosterone directly.

although from a bodybuilding standpoint, if your thyroid isn't working right....you can forget about your other hormones being in order as well.

hemants
10-16-2001, 12:28 PM
True that, but that's a big IF.

Tryska
10-16-2001, 12:31 PM
considering i have my own thyroid issues already...it's not an IF i'm willing to risk, or that i would wish on anyone else. Apparently those soy researchers working with the FDA don't feel too good about it either.

hemants
10-16-2001, 12:39 PM
If i were in your shoes I'd play it safe as well. As you said time will tell.

The thing that brings me comfort are:

1. men have very few estrogen receptors to begin with
2. phytoestrogen effects seem to be tissue specific not broad
3. soy is a small part of my weekly protein intake (maybe 30g a day if that)

Maki Riddington
10-16-2001, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by Tryska
no disrespect maki mak...but i am going to have to categorically disagree with your points.....i don't feel like typing it all out...but if you are interested, here is a site that goes into each aspect of soy in relative detail with accompanying studies.

SoyistheDevil.com (http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/)

*** Great, I figured you would . Thats why I posted.:)
Now as far as the site I gave it a quick skim through.
I posted just a few reasons why I don't belive Soy is evil.
Unfortunately I can't say much since you haven't typed a rebutal refuting my last post.

Oh btw I have a hard time believing natural foods are "evil".
I can understand if it is artificial but very few things that are from the earth are "evil".

hemants
10-17-2001, 06:18 AM
True that Maki but I'm sure that if you find some chemical in all natural foods that will cause some undesired result when fed in megadoses to rats.

;)

Moderation and variety are usually good principles to follow even for natural foods.

Tryska
10-17-2001, 06:38 AM
hey maki...i actually had hit on a couple of your points through my little debate with hemant....

but i wanna make the point that soy as we eat it today (tofu hotdogs, isoflavone capsules, soy milk, powder) is far from "natural". In Asia...soy milk was something used sparingly in the absence of other protein....it was the "last resort, or else we die" choice. Also...asian methods of preparation took int account the toxins in soy, and fermented the beans for a long time, to break down the phytoestrogens, phytates, etc, in the food before consuming it. they also didn't eat anywhere near the amount being suggested to people today.

hemant...i think you are wise to practice all things in moderation...but while you are quick to dismiss studies that don't support your views, because they were done on rats, remember doctors use other studies done on rats to support the views you espouse. so either don't look for studies to support your claims across the board, or don't use the "was done rats" argument, to refute studies you don't like...*lol*near every study, short of epidemilogicals and certain morally correct double-blinds are done on rats, pigs andrhesus monkeys because they are the closest to human physiology and yet are dispensable enough to use for studies. You can't pick and choose which rat studies are good and which are bad, according to your views. that's a perversion of science.

lastly the Hawaii Epidemiological study, (one of the best of it's kind, and done on humans) still shows a higher rate of Alzheimers in middle-aged men who used tofu as their main source of protien. just a thought.

Alex.V
10-17-2001, 07:30 AM
Originally posted by Maki Riddington
very few things that are from the earth are "evil".

"evil", or "unfit for human consumption"? Maybe none of the former, but plenty of the latter.

hemants
10-17-2001, 07:58 AM
Tryska, I'm not dismissing them at all. Animal studies are an important first step in forming scientific conclusions.

I just don't believe every hyped up web site I find on the net.

Anyhow, I thought we'd reached a point of "reasonable difference" of opinion on this issue ;)

Tryska
10-17-2001, 08:02 AM
we did.....and i don't believe every hyped up website i fnd either....but anyways....we cool.:)

Wizard
10-17-2001, 08:21 AM
Originally posted by hemants
LMAO at BlackAlpha and Tryska, I said CREDIBLE research.

BlackAlpha - surely you're not basing your opinion on an article in testosterone magazine?


However it's a source and if you noticed the guy provides a ton of refs...

hemants
10-17-2001, 08:22 AM
Um, uh, Wizard...never mind.:rolleyes:

Spiderman
10-17-2001, 10:15 AM
I'll take red meat thank you. ;) Soy....YUCK! *points finger down throat* Soy is :evillaugh and makes me have to :fart: excessively....

Maki Riddington
10-17-2001, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by Tryska
hey maki...i actually had hit on a couple of your points through my little debate with hemant....

but i wanna make the point that soy as we eat it today (tofu hotdogs, isoflavone capsules, soy milk, powder) is far from "natural". In Asia...soy milk was something used sparingly in the absence of other protein....it was the "last resort, or else we die" choice. Also...asian methods of preparation took int account the toxins in soy, and fermented the beans for a long time, to break down the phytoestrogens, phytates, etc, in the food before consuming it. they also didn't eat anywhere near the amount being suggested to people today.




*** Tryska, note I did mention that when searching out a Soy product one must be wary that it is not genetically altered product.

Belial, I was using the words Tryska used to describe Soy.

Tryska
10-17-2001, 12:22 PM
yeah maki...i saw that....but it goes deeper the GMO, or even processing with alcohol in my opinion. Like i said, traditional soy preparation was to ferment and essentially let the product rot, so that the plant chemicals would be broken down in it. things like soy sauce and tamari, and even tempeh. But tofu, isoflavone caps, protein isolate, etc aren't processed enough to get rid of the phytoestrogens, and goitrogens and lectins that are my real concern.

Alex.V
10-17-2001, 12:33 PM
Yes, maki, but I was quibbling, implying that MANY things that come from the earth can be "evil", depending how you define the word.

Tryska
10-17-2001, 12:36 PM
cowpoo for instance.

and those little poisonous frogs that people lick.

Alex.V
10-17-2001, 12:45 PM
and ROCKS.

Tryska
10-17-2001, 12:49 PM
rocks = very very bad.

*throws rock at belial*

Hercules
10-17-2001, 12:51 PM
soy has it's place. it's great for people who have low production of T3 and T4(metabolic enzymes that are released by the thyroid glan). it's also good for people who are on low caloric diets and those for cardiac patients. as for building muscle, it's not so hot. i think everyone could benefite from a soy shake here and there. if you don't like soy shakes eat beans and lentils. red meat excellent. our ancestors ate it frequently and lived long lives. they also had to hunt it down. so eat it in moderation. i like chicken myself.

Wizard
10-17-2001, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by Hercules
soy has it's place. it's great for people who have low production of T3 and T4(metabolic enzymes that are released by the thyroid glan).

It may lower the T4 production.

Tryska
10-17-2001, 04:17 PM
thankds blackie...i didn't feel like arguing that AGAIN.

Hercules
10-17-2001, 05:09 PM
i've read articles on soy and the research done proves they do increase T3 and T4 production. soy is best used by women though especially those who are going through menapause.

Tryska
10-17-2001, 05:16 PM
soooo tired of this subject.....did you read any of the previous posts covering this topic? whilst i believe on pubmed study that hemant pulled up stated there was no "effect" on T3/T4 levels...that same study did recognize an increase in TPO. which isn't a good thing.

anyways....y'all can pull studies out the ying-yang....i can pull them out too....but what's most compelling to me, is the anecdotal, real-world, in-the trenches experiences with soy. from that stuff i walk away with two notions:

1.) Do NOT use soy if your Thyroid is in anyway compromised.
2.) Do NOT use soy isoflavones, or any other phytoestrogens as Hormone Replacement Therapy if you are menopausal. you would be better off using a synthetic estrogen/progesterone combo.

Hercules
10-17-2001, 08:03 PM
i could care less what studies anyone pulls up for or against soy. bottam line, it's a protein, if you choose to use it go ahead. why did this post come up anyway? given the chose i'll eat red meat over soy anyway cause it taste better and is more filling.

Bullrider Billy
10-18-2001, 08:56 AM
soy has it's place. it's great for people who have low production of T3 and T4(metabolic enzymes that are released by the thyroid glan).

No! No! A thousand times No!

Soy consumption is contraindicated in hypothyroidism of any etiology. There is a post above that says it... soy binds with thyroid hormones (T4, T3, T2, T1, T0 and all the others) as well as not letting the hormones be utilized at the cellular level. It's not that it interferes with production of the hormones. Usage of whatever is produced is inhibited and compromised. If you want the scoop, go to http://thyroid.miningco.com/health/thyroid/ and look at the link to the Downside of Soy.

Tryska
10-18-2001, 08:58 AM
well now i like ya billy!

that mining company link is excellent btw.

Bullrider Billy
10-18-2001, 09:48 AM
Yes, it is excellent. I post there under a different id; I am hypothyroid, so I have gained a wee bit of knowledge about the subject. ;)

Tryska
10-18-2001, 09:51 AM
hmm...perhaps we've seen each other around then.....;)

Reinier
10-18-2001, 10:33 AM
mmm.......

"red meat excellent. our ancestors ate it frequently and lived long lives. they also had to hunt it down. so eat it in moderation. "

I agree with you on the moderation and the red meat being good, but humans in the time they hunted down their meals had a life expextancy of hardly 35 years.

Hercules
10-18-2001, 01:07 PM
humans used to live to be well over 100 years of age, now that could be the jewish year which is a bit different since if you look at a jewish(true old fashion jewish) calander their days start at 6 am and end at 6pm or something like that.

but nevertheless, like i said i could care less about any articles for or against soy. it's a food that grows from the ground in the form of a bean and therefore is eatable and can nourish your body. i don't care for it cause it tastes like cardboard as does oatmeal. give me chicken and cottage cheese anyday. i'm not going to sit here and continue to be ganged up on by soy haters. it's not worth my time or effort. ya don't like soy for whatever reason don't eat it, if ya like it eat it. now, let's all move on and ear some steak shall we.

hemants
10-18-2001, 02:15 PM
At the risk of raising a dead dog I'll try and summarize in an objective a way as I can ;)

Red Meat Benefits :

1. Protein - BV about 80
2. High Zinc content raises testosterone

Red Meat Concerns:

1. Links to Colo-rectal cancer
2. High in saturated fat

Practical advice:

1. eat lean meat
2. eat lot's of fibre

Soy Benefits :

1. Protein - BV about 72, contains all essential amino acids, the addition of methionine raises it's BV to a much higher level so take Soy with eggs (if you can stomach the taste)

2. Isoflavones - various claimed benefits including heart disease, cancer fighting

Soy Concerns :

1. Thyroid effects - some reports say it raises thyroid output, others say it inhibits it -> if you've got thyroid issues, play it safe and minimize isoflavone intake

2. Testosterone effects - some reports say it lowers testosterone in CERTAIN TISSUES, others say it is a testosterone booster because the isoflavones bind to estrogen receptors yet have 1/500 the potency of estradiol (ie. real estrogen) -> I doubt it has much impact on testosterone unless you take high doses like isoflavone pills so don't take isoflavone pills

Practical Advice:

1. If you are eating it for protein and you don't want to screw around with isoflavones, then find foods with the least isoflavones per gram of protein (ie. Soy Milk)

2. Don't take Isoflavone pills.

Soy Source : micrograms isoflavone per gram of protein

Mature soybeans, uncooked : 1891
Roasted soybeans : 1942
Soy Flour : 2084
Textured soy protein, dry : 928
Green soybeans,uncooked : 548
***Soy milk : 56 ***
Tempeh, uncooked : 531
Tofu, uncooked : 336
Soy isolate, dry : 2174
Soy concentrate, dry : 195

puff face
10-27-2001, 02:59 AM
I think soy moderation is ok. As for me....I am suffering from male
hair loss & the specialist said that I am having higher
testro level then others.

Curently on drugs to lower the testro level to normal for 6 months. Still making great gains in muscle & my hair is growing.:)

Tryska
10-27-2001, 05:04 AM
hey there puff-face! welcome to wbb. :)

The_Chicken_Daddy
10-27-2001, 05:06 AM
T, why isn't your fine booty on msn? tuttut

Tryska
10-27-2001, 05:27 AM
i is there now chigsey....

Reinier
01-11-2002, 02:10 PM
is soy still cool for females to eat?

Tryska
01-11-2002, 04:32 PM
not if they've got any sort of thyroid condition. and imo not in extreme quantities, as it could make them estrogen-dominant and/or give them a thyroid condition, which isn't a good thing.

Wizard
01-13-2002, 03:23 AM
OMG not again!!!.... :eek: