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vvv
06-07-2004, 10:14 AM
Is it better to cut first or bulk up first?
I know cut take much longer than bulk. So in my situation:
5'10 175lbs 23%bf 21yrs

Shud I bulk or cut?

i've been takin low carb protein shakes for 5 weeks now, takin a minute rest between sets, doin cardio etc.

Could sumone help me out here?

My goal is to be in shape and once thats achieved, getin stronger and bigger.

Thx

lex
06-07-2004, 10:20 AM
hmm id personally try to cut first to lower your bf..i dont know much so other might disagree..im trying to bulk first because im sorta scrawny =\ check and see how these guys respond to u

vvv
06-07-2004, 10:22 AM
wuts an ideal bf? ~5%bf?

fierce
06-07-2004, 10:25 AM
wuts an ideal bf? ~5%bf?

I think around 10%

geoffgarcia
06-07-2004, 10:31 AM
actually its my experience thats bulks are longer than cuts.
I tend to cut for 8-12 weeks at most (2-3 months)
while I bulk for 16-24 weeks (4-6 months)

23% bf is already pretty high IMHO especially at 175lbs thats 40.25lbs of fat ur carrying around with you. Picture 5 gallon jugs each filled with lard and fat...thats how much junk ur carrying...

Since your new to lifting I'd bet that even if you bulk you will probably lose a few pounds of stored fat as it is.

That said, I know how psychologically taxing it can be to workout and workout and workout and not see any physical results even while you are getting stronger...its just frustrating as hell. I think if you chose to do a bulk thats what you'd get...and for some that might make them giveup...

On the other hand, diet is the most important tool in an athletes arsenal. Mastering ur diet is VERY important to both gaining and losing weight. Learning about diet on a bulk is fairly straight forward, just follow the "see food" method, whatever you see you eat...on a bulk, IMHO, you gotta count your calories if you want to be successful. and THAT can be a pain in the butt, especially for a newbie.
At ur size it doesn't sound like you have to much underlying muscle, so on your cut ur going to whittle away to nothing...at 145 u'd be about 10% bf (27lb drop)...which should take you about 3 months to achieve... only problem being once ur that lean u might not have much self confidence because u'll be so much smaller...

Those are ur two situations as far as I can see...I might have missed some of the pro's and some of the cons...
if u start cutting now, u'll be lean by about sept and the summer will be over and time to put on ur heavy clothes again for the fall/winter. Then u can bulk for the cold months. Sept-March (7 months) then start another cut until May and be cut for the next summer, hopefully after having gained 7-12 pounds of LBM. Some might argue that newbies can gain more since their body is aching to put on muscle, but I tend to disagree as most newbies (unless they have a good training partner) just dont have diets good enough to promote growth.

Thats probably what I would do, as I find that on a cut is where you learn about the importance of counting calories and how much and where they should come from. Once you see the direct connection they have to your body it should make you infinitely more aware of them during a bulk, and help you ensure u get enough, as it seems a lot of people might THINK they get enough on a bulk, but really are undereating

vvv
06-07-2004, 10:39 AM
Eating Habits

7:30a
Regular Oatmeal with water + Green Tea w/ honey

9:00a
Nature Valley Trail mix bar

12:00p
Fried Rice sumtimes with fried egg (home cooked, veggies with canola oil then a cup of brown rice mixed with Soya sauce)

1:00-4:30p
2-3 710 ml of water

5:00-6:00p
Workout/Cardio

7:00p
Protein shake (ISO Low carb, 24g of protein each serving)

8:00-9:00p
Bread with cheese or Fruits (depending on the day n mood)


Any suggestions? improvements? comments? Thanks

geoffgarcia
06-07-2004, 11:05 AM
that sounds like ur undereating...you could probably quadruple that intake and lose weight much healthier...

I'd guess thats <900 calories...

vvv
06-07-2004, 11:14 AM
REALLY? :omg:.

Well where could I add more cals/protein/carbs?!... ne ideas?

geoffgarcia
06-07-2004, 11:38 AM
everywhere:)
and you need a LOT more fat in there also

TheGimp
06-07-2004, 11:51 AM
1:00-4:30p
2-3 710 ml of water


Oh man, water is not a meal :p

I'm with geoff on all counts.

vvv
06-07-2004, 12:10 PM
Oh man, water is not a meal :p

but thats during lunch and my work out session

newayz,,, i'm a noob.... what shud I eat in that period?.. another garnola bar with like a chocolate?

geoffgarcia
06-07-2004, 12:22 PM
Try a diet like this:


7:30a
3 servings Regular Oatmeal with water + Green Tea w/ honey
blended protein shake (25g protien) + 28g fat

9a
blended protein shake 25g + 5g fish oil

12p
Fried Rice sumtimes with fried egg + 1/2 pound of chicken breast

2p
mixed fruit/veggie + protein shake 30g

4pm
pre workout protein shake

5:00-6:00p
Workout/Cardio

7p
post workout protein shake 50g of protein

9p
Bread with cheese or Fruits
+ protein shake 30g + 28g fat (5g from fish oil)
That should get ya close to 2400 calories, 240g protein, 210g carbs, 70g fat

vvv
06-07-2004, 12:49 PM
That should get ya close to 2400 calories, 240g protein, 210g carbs, 70g fat

Thanks alots for the diet breakdown appreciate it. But I thought you shud have the smae amt of protein (in grams) as ur body weight.. but i'm takin bout 40g over my limit

geoffgarcia
06-07-2004, 12:54 PM
vvv
it depends on what ur goals are.
The diet I put up there btw is for a cut, not a bulk.

If you want to grow muscle then 1-1.5g per pound of bw is advisable.
the numbers I gave are just rough numbers I threw up there.
When ur on a cut ur body is more likely to go into a catabolic state where u consume protein at a quick rate for energy thus not having enough to maintain your muscles, so you want to make sure you overeat on the protein so u dont lose to much muscle.

Some people on an extreme cut to get down below 5% will go up as high as 400g of protein, 50g fat, 50g carbs...that would be extreme though and not needed unless u were already at 5% and wanting to go even lower.

if you dropped the protein down to 175 u'd have to up something to make up for the calories because calories, you could bring ur fats up to about 90g and ur carbs up to compensate...

if you wanted to bulk then I'd go with about 32-3800 calories (ish)
give or take: 250g protein, 300g carbs, 120g fat

Don Birnam
06-07-2004, 12:56 PM
Thanks alots for the diet breakdown appreciate it. But I thought you shud have the smae amt of protein (in grams) as ur body weight.. but i'm takin bout 40g over my limit

You gotta take at least your body weight... hence 240 g is fine.

furious
06-07-2004, 01:00 PM
loss the fruit, and honey. Increase protein and total calories, and do cardio.

geoffgarcia
06-07-2004, 01:07 PM
loss the fruit, and honey. Increase protein and total calories, and do cardio.
he'd need the fruit for phytochemicals since he doesn't have much veggies in there. a little of both would be ideal unless he was on a tighter cut from 8% down

vvv
06-07-2004, 01:30 PM
geoffgarcia and neone else:

what would do u recommend a workout plan for the cut down phase. I have cardio every alternate days so (3 days workout 3 days cardio) one day rest.

For cardio I usually ball basketball for an hour. Is that enuff?

This post does not belong in this section....apologies

geoffgarcia
06-07-2004, 01:42 PM
I'm the outspoken minority on this board a lot of the time, but by no means an expert on these things...there are quite a lot of people on here with more knowledge and experience than me that I often look to for guidance. and everybody has had different experiences that are worth listening to. The key I find is in learning about these things so you can makeup your mind for yourself as to what to do, when, and most importantly why.

I just have the luxury of free time at work to type out long posts *hahahah*
plus I'm a computer programmer by day (batman by night) so I can type a lot really fast *LOL*
so don't take what I write as fact because 9/10 its just an opinion that I have based on whats worked for me, my bodytype and my goals. i dont mean to give the impression that I know it all..because I can tell you for sure that I dont.

IMHO (in my humble opinion)

3 or 4 workout days at 45 minutes each using weights would be adequate.
A cutting workout routine doesn't need to be any different from a bulking one in any way. You can keep the same volume of sets and reps and the same breakdown of days when you switch from a cut to a bulk although it is nice to break the monotony of a routine every few months, and its good to experience various things to help build up your understanding of what works best for your body. Plus we all have different weakpoints to train, some have smaller legs, some want to focus on chest development, some on abs. Also some of us here are looking at weight training and nutrition to become better athletes, while some want to be bodybuilders and others powerlifters.

Just make sure your getting in a few compound movements like squats, deadlifts, bench press, etc that will stimulate testosterone production.

U can keep up the cardio, although I don't think cardio is mandatory on a cut as long as your doing some physical activity.

Just keep ur heart rate at a decent level...like between 130-150 and go for 25-50 minutes on a non weight lifting day. and 10-15 minutes after a workout would be ideal to burn off a little fat once your energy stores have been depleted.

For a good 3-4 day workout you can find quite a few variations in the bodybuilding/fitness section.
A lot of people like a
chest/tricep
rest
back/bicep/shoulders
rest
legs/abs

typa routine...but you can break it up any which way...the most important part would be to work hard and get an honest workout each time you step into the gym and make sure to stay on your diet and get plenty of rest.

Good things come to those that are persistent.

Also if your serious about cutting and losing weight then like I said before, counting your calories is of utmost importance. A tool like fitday.com (free, accessible online) or dietOrganizer.com (40$ pc tool, slightly more advanced than fitday) is VERY helpful

vvv
06-07-2004, 01:56 PM
well.. would increasing weights on a weekly basis be advisable or maintain level 6-8 of resistance and keep it up for say 2 weeks and then every 2 weeks increase the resistance and reduce the reps

so
week1&2
1. Chest/Back/Calves - 12-15 reps
2. Bicep/Tricep/Shoulder/Squats/Thighs - 12-15 reps
3. Chest/Back/Calves - 12-15 reps
4. Bicep/Tricep/Shoulder/Squats/Thighs - 12-15 reps
5. Chest/Back/Calves - 12-15 reps
6. Bicep/Tricep/Shoulder/Squats/Thighs - 12-15 reps

week3&4
1. Chest/Back/Calves - 10-12reps
2. Bicep/Tricep/Shoulder/Squats/Thighs - 10-12reps
3. Chest/Back/Calves - 10-12reps
4. Bicep/Tricep/Shoulder/Squats/Thighs - 10-12reps
5. Chest/Back/Calves - 10-12reps
6. Bicep/Tricep/Shoulder/Squats/Thighs - 10-12reps

week5&6
1. Chest/Back/Calves - 8-10reps
2. Bicep/Tricep/Shoulder/Squats/Thighs - 8-10reps
3. Chest/Back/Calves - 8-10reps
4. Bicep/Tricep/Shoulder/Squats/Thighs - 8-10reps
5. Chest/Back/Calves - 8-10reps
6. Bicep/Tricep/Shoulder/Squats/Thighs - 8-10reps

And try and do abs everyday

geoffgarcia
06-07-2004, 02:09 PM
There are a multitude of techniques people use as far as increasing weight, increasing sets/reps, etc...the way your increasing in your workout looks very similar to a style called HST. there is nothing wrong with it, but it can be a little confusing. Its great for an advanced lifter that is stuck in a plateau or needs a break from monotony, but for a beginner I wouldn't think there is any advantage over doing a traditional 10 reps per set volume and increase the weights when your comfortable. I dont think there needs to be a set plan where you increase 5% every 2 weeks or anything like that. The weights will go up on their own.

For instance, if I do leg extensions 3 sets of 10 reps at 100 pounds for 1-2 weeks then I might jot down in my ledger that the next time I go to the gym I'd like to do +5lbs for one of the sets...then the next time I go to the gym I look at what I did the time before and what my comments were, if I said to do more then I will (typically on my first set when I am freshest) if that goes well I'll write down to do it for 2 sets or maybe all 3 the next week...and so on...

When I say journal, what I really mean is a spreadsheet that I bring to the gym. I print out an excel spreadsheet that has columns/rows so I can see my entire routine on a single piece of paper (usually front/back) and I can track a full 12-24 week routine on it marking what weights I've done, how I felt and how I want to progress the next week. I'm attaching a picture image of a small segment from the sheet as an example using the leg extension and those numbers from above as an example. I write the weights in after I've done them, a " in the progress column would indicate I want to do the same thing next time...


finally, Ur workout seems to be a variation of a 2 day split where you have 2 different exercise days
day 1 = Chest/Back/Calves
day 2 = Bicep/Tricep/Shoulder/Squats/Thighs
and then repeat 2x per week.

Depending on the amount of sets your doing for each this could be good or it could be bad.

What a lot of people do is start with an idea of how many TOTAL sets they'd like to do for a body part per week and go from there.
Since bicep and triceps are smaller muscle and are used so much in ur other lifts for back, chest and shoulders, most of us only give them 1/2 or 1/3 the total volume (sets) that we would give to the larger parts like back, chest, legs.
something like 8-12 sets for a big group and 3-5 for a small is fairly typical.

Some of us also like to break down the muscles as much as possible...
the back for instance can be broken down into lats, traps/rhoboids and lower back (spinal erectors) and legs can be broken down into hamstrings, quads and calves (actually u could break the calves up into 2 groups if u wanted).

Of course each plays a different amount of synergistic work in various exercises, your traps come into play a lot doing deadlifts which also work your legs and spinal erectors (lower back)

For someone that is new to the game and just looking for general growth you can just stick with a common breakdown and still see great results. Nitpicking at individual muscles and specialy isolation lifts are more advanced and for compensating for weaker muscle groups that sometimes occur when a routine is out of balance for a few years or if your priorities change over time.

TheGimp
06-07-2004, 02:20 PM
Just for a bit of constructive criticism, I think geoff's diet plan is a little too heavy on the protein shakes. Whole food might be a better option in some cases, although pre/post workout shakes should of course be in there. Check out this (http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=46565) sticky for some good food choices.

geoffgarcia
06-07-2004, 02:24 PM
Just for a bit of constructive criticism, I think geoff's diet plan is a little too heavy on the protein shakes. Whole food might be a better option in some cases, although pre/post workout shakes should of course be in there.
I agree...
I lean very heavily on shakes because I'm lazy about cooking and shakes are sooo easy to log in my calorie counter tool *hahah*
solid foods are always a better alternative.

I'm on a cut right now and I take 5 a day. a pre and post workout shake as well as 3 blended shakes (am, pm and mid-day) to make sure I keep proteins in my system so I don't fall into a catabolic state. Sub'ing with chicken, beef, or any other source of protein would have the same effect and be the healthier alternative.

BTW, here is some additional info that might help you and give you more insite into various aspects of nutrition

12 Week Guide to becoming Lean " Diet " (http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/magazine/fatlossdiet.htm)
The Ultimate Guide To Bodybuilding: Self Analysis Part I (http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/magazine/howtoanalysizeyourself.htm)
The Ultimate Guide To Bodybuilding: Self Analysis Part II (http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/magazine/howtoanalysizeyourself2.htm)
Post Exercise Nutrition to Maximize the Training Effect (http://www.thinkmuscle.com/articles/haycock/postexercise.htm)
Pre/During/Post Workout Nutrition (http://www.avantlabs.com/page.php?pageID=66&pf=1&noupdate=1)

SquareHead
06-07-2004, 02:29 PM
I agree...
I lean very heavily on shakes because I'm lazy about cooking and shakes are sooo easy to log in my calorie counter tool *hahah*
solid foods are always a better alternative.

I'm on a cut right now and I take 5 a day. a pre and post workout shake as well as 3 blended shakes (am, pm and mid-day) to make sure I keep proteins in my system so I don't fall into a catabolic state. Sub'ing with chicken, beef, or any other source of protein would have the same effect and be the healthier alternative.

LMFAO I hear ya w/ the login cals thing. SO annoying!!

I say cut. Trust me, I was getting a fairly large muscular frame on me but recently let it all go and am on a long cut returning to the begining. It is worth it to get your bf low then clean bulk up. I hope this is what you do.

vvv
06-07-2004, 05:29 PM
Thanks for all the help...

ne advise is helpful rite now

Augury
06-07-2004, 07:15 PM
My god Geoff, you have outdone yourself today :) You must have aching fingers from all that typing!

Listen to what he (and gimp too) are saying vvv. From where you are currently starting the advice is solid gold.

Good luck with your training. You will learn so much when you actually do it too :)

vvv
06-08-2004, 08:38 AM
For cardio would swimming say 20 laps good? or running?

btw www.fitday.com is really helpful.... tracks the # of calories etc

geoffgarcia, i'm a comp progrmer as well.. so i have to sit most of the day on my chair... and that isnt too good for the rear... ne suggestions? like bum excersies or regular walks around the work place?

TheGimp
06-08-2004, 08:45 AM
Swimming would be better on your joints than running.

vvv
06-08-2004, 10:45 AM
Swimming would be better on your joints than running.

better on my joints?!? i'm still 21... not 81... jokin

yeah plus it's a full body workout as apposed to running

thx

vvv
06-08-2004, 12:55 PM
Another question....
What vitamins given proper nutrients needed for the body for digesting food etc?

I take Vitamin C 500mg and Cod Liver Oil 20min rite now.
Waht else do i need??

thx

TheGimp
06-08-2004, 12:58 PM
A multivit would be a good idea.

geoffgarcia
06-08-2004, 01:03 PM
What vitamins given proper nutrients needed for the body for digesting food etc?
u shouldn't need anything else...cept the multiVit Gimp suggested
however, since I was curious I looked it up:

lipase aids fat digestion, protease aids protein digestion, amylase assists with carbohydrate digestion, lactase assists with digestion of dairy sugars, cellulase and hemicellulase assist with breaking down plant fibre.

dxiw
06-10-2004, 12:28 AM
wuts an ideal bf? ~5%bf?

well depends on your goals, getting below 12-15% takes extra time and suffering and really not nesseccary unless your dying to be ripped. Just to give you a guide (although it varies person by person), 20% you have a little belly, 15% your stomach is just about flat and when you flex you can maybe see 2-4 abs, 10% when you flex you see most of your 6 pack but relaxed may not see anything, 8% you see abs relaxed, 5% you see every striation in your damn body...

generally the "cut" look is around 8-10% bodyfat, if you wanna be shredded like the dudes in the magazine thats 5-8% bodyfat... I would cut to around 13% or so and then bulk to 16% and then cut again. You really don't want to waste time doing severe cutting to like 8% when you have little muscle to show off, cut down the fat, gain some muscle, then get ripped..

vvv
09-06-2004, 11:29 AM
well i now it's september and her are my results after 4 months of cutting.

my wieght was 185 lbs.


height: 5'10~5'11
weight : 166.7 lbs
bf: 26%!
:mad:

seems like i havent gained or retained much muscle. ne comments?

vvv
01-31-2005, 03:22 PM
well i now it's jan05 and i havent worked out much in the past 5 months
height: 5'10.5
weight : 160 lbs
bf: 26%!
:birthday: