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fierce
06-07-2004, 04:33 PM
Are there any fruit I should stay away from while cutting?

I like to mix up some strawberries, blueberries, rasberries, apple, and banana into some yogurt as a snack

Are all these fruits ok to eat in moderation, or should I be staying away from this type of meal??

Vido
06-07-2004, 05:14 PM
Just make sure to count the calories from the various fruits and stay within your daily limitations and you'll be fine.

geoffgarcia
06-07-2004, 05:17 PM
what % bf are you at? and what % are you trying to get to?
elimination of fruits and veggies wont kill you for a 2-3 week period (or longer)
but its really only needed when ur down to the nitty gritty and trying to lose the last 3-4% for a competition or something...you can get to 7% eatng fruit and veggies if you choose. Just fit them into your daily intake.

fierce
06-07-2004, 06:43 PM
Well, I am 5'10 184 right now, wanting to get to 175 by july 15th..

Maki Riddington
06-07-2004, 06:45 PM
Fruit is good, it's not as bad as many people make it out to be.

ecliptic
06-07-2004, 06:51 PM
I love fruit, plus its very beneficial to your body with all the antioxidants and vitamins in them.

Optimum08
06-07-2004, 08:13 PM
blueberries=yummy -and very good for u too...

Piper25
06-08-2004, 03:51 PM
many bodybuilders cut fruit from thier diet while cutting because the sugar fructose found in fruit cannot be digested therefore stored as fat or excreted.....not to mention the insulin spike that will occur.....just make sure you try and get all your vitamins from other resources....multi vitamin etc....same with dairy products they have a sugar that reacts the same as fructose.....

Podium Kreatin
06-08-2004, 04:00 PM
imo, fruit calories isn't that big of a deal, and it should be ok to eat fruit when dieting. fructose doesn't really have much an effect on insulin, so ur body won't store it as fat like other types of carbs

piper25, where did u get that fructose can't be digested? fructose is absorbed into the blood via sodium-glucose symports, either to be used up immediately, or converted and built into glycogen.

ace dogg
06-08-2004, 05:27 PM
Fructose is always bad. Ideally you should cut out fruit, and supplement for the vitamins, antioxidants, etc.

pruneman
06-08-2004, 06:13 PM
Fructose preferentially refills liver glycogen. If you are at a calorie defecit, I would think that liver glycogen would be relatively low (and certainly not full). I am under the assumption that only excess carbohydrate (fructose in this case) will be stored as fat. Since your liver glycogen is already low, I wouldn't think that the fructose would be stored as fat. I personally find fruits very filling while being generally low in calories and would think that they would be useful in a cutting diet as long as you don't go overboard.

I'm not an expert at cutting, but hopefully these views will contribute to the discussion.

Maki Riddington
06-08-2004, 07:55 PM
many bodybuilders cut fruit from thier diet while cutting because the sugar fructose found in fruit cannot be digested therefore stored as fat or excreted.....not to mention the insulin spike that will occur.....just make sure you try and get all your vitamins from other resources....multi vitamin etc....same with dairy products they have a sugar that reacts the same as fructose.....


*** That is some incorrect info you got there.

Maki Riddington
06-08-2004, 07:56 PM
Fructose is always bad. .

*** Care to expand on this?

Augury
06-08-2004, 08:16 PM
fructose and sucrose from fruits cannot be digested? First ive heard. How come my bloodsugar goes up when i eat fruit then? (i measure it with bloodwork).

sucrose/fructose (and any other "ose) have a place in diet. They are particularly good for preworkout food as they raise the bloodsugar fast, produce insulin and move you into anabolism. They also will make you feel better during the workout.

The only downside of 30g of fructose as opposed to 30g of raw oats is that you will obviously feel less satiated. If you are cramming your throat with food to bulk on anyhow this isnt going to be a problem. Infact it may become a godsend way of getting carbs and thus callories into you without having to fill your belly. If you have budgeted for the calories and carbs whats the problem.

Just clean your teeth :)

TheGimp
06-09-2004, 12:02 AM
Fructose is always bad. Ideally you should cut out fruit, and supplement for the vitamins, antioxidants, etc.
Given that hepatic glycogen levels are one of the body's primary determining factors in whether it is in an anabolic state this is a pretty extreme statement to make. Also I'd like to know where you can get phytonutrient supplements? :scratch:



fructose and sucrose from fruits cannot be digested?
Yeah this is just wrong :)

pruneman
06-09-2004, 07:05 AM
I would have to agree with TheGimp on that. I've been reading a lot of articles that suggest that the antioxidant activity of fruits is due to the combination of vitamins, phytochemicals, etc. in the fruit and that antioxidant supplementation does not provide as much antioxidant activity as eating whole fruit/vegetables.

Spartacus
06-09-2004, 10:38 PM
lots of fructose=bad
but a small amount is good, when cutting, as Gimp mentioned.

one fruit has just about the perfect amount...

ace dogg
06-10-2004, 11:16 AM
It's not good cuz glucose based carbs are better. when better is possible, good is bad. Maybe I'm the only one with that mentality.

What do you mean where will you get phyto chemicals? From other plant foods!

TBone4Eva
06-10-2004, 01:28 PM
Fructose is always bad. Ideally you should cut out fruit, and supplement for the vitamins, antioxidants, etc.
Personally, I would rather get my vitamins and antioxidants from a food source instead of a pill.

geoffgarcia
06-10-2004, 02:24 PM
Personally, I would rather get my vitamins and antioxidants from a food source instead of a pill.
and where would u be getting the phytochemicals...

ace dogg
06-10-2004, 03:25 PM
Personally, I would rather get my vitamins and antioxidants from a food source instead of a pill.

I'm happy for you. There really isn't a difference, FYI.

Why does everyone think phytochemicals are only fruit? Do you know what phyto means?

Please list the phytochemicals that are in fruit that can't be found in other plant foods.

Holto
06-10-2004, 03:51 PM
from what I have read there are no phyto's in fruit that are not also in veggies and some in veggies not in fruit

but...consider that there are 100,000 of them and we have only even named around 500 of them

there could be some uber-phyto in fruit that we don't know about but it's unlikely

the point is to eat lots of plants without heating them to the point of killing valuable phyto's

Holto
06-10-2004, 03:55 PM
There really isn't a difference, FYI

I wish the stuff in bottles was as good as nature but I really doubt it

take vitamin E for example

the scientists on the forefront of nutrition (price-pottinger.com) have identified d-alpha-tocopherol as an anti-oxidant that PROTECTS vitamin E in the vitamin E complex

it is NOT vitamin E but if you walk into any health food store it is identified as such

then we have something like ascorbic acid which is indeed vitamin C but what about the hundreds of different compounds foudn in nature that help it to be absorbed (bioflavinoids etc...)

Maki Riddington
06-10-2004, 06:39 PM
It's not good cuz glucose based carbs are better. when better is possible, good is bad.

*** Why are glucose based carbs more superior then fruit and what does that have to do with the initial question? It still stands that during a body fat reduction phase, fruit can be eaten without hindering fat loss.

ace dogg
06-10-2004, 06:58 PM
from what I have read there are no phyto's in fruit that are not also in veggies and some in veggies not in fruit

And there it is! haha. Point being that veggies (and other plant foods, grains too) have all the phytochemicals that fruit does, without the fructose (which is bad). To "expand on it further" fructose is bad simply because it *preferentially* fills liver glyco. In practical terms meaning that if both your muscles and liver need glucose, it will go to your liver (approx 75-100g)...and your muscles get screwed. This is of special relavance to weight trainers because they purposely deplete muscle glycogen on a regular basis, while most of the time their liver is full. So in this situation with depleted muscles, and full liver, the fructose will spill over to fat stores (small % to muscles), even if there is room for more glucose to be stored. You have valuable glucose going to fat rather thasn where it is needed. Lactose acts the same way (actually I believe, if memory isn't failing me, there is a slight difference, but for all practical purposes consider it the same). As for GI, it's of some importace (way overdone), but the actual type of carb is much more important. High GI glucose based carb would be better than a low GI fructose based carb.

All this said, if you really want to incorperate fructose into your diet, in the morning would be the best time to do so as liver glycogen is depleted.

ace dogg
06-10-2004, 07:02 PM
*** Why are glucose based carbs more superior then fruit and what does that have to do with the initial question? It still stands that during a body fat reduction phase, fruit can be eaten without hindering fat loss.

When all is said and done, you're probably right. Calories in versus calories out will take care of the fat that is stored when the spill-over occurs. In other words you will gain fat temporarily, but because of the calorie deficit the fat that you do gain will be burned off later anyway. That still doesn't sit well with me, though...but I'm kind of weird. A different point is that you will be robbing your muscles of the glucose that they need, in favor of sending it to fat stores. Muscle glycogen should be of very high importance while cutting, so it would be very counter productive to your goals to eat fructose. Unless of course you're following a ketogenic diet.

Maki Riddington
06-10-2004, 09:36 PM
A couple points to think about Ace Dogg:

Fruit is not made up of just fructose. That's a huge misconception. People automatically think that fruit is bad because it has fructose in it. But for fruit to negatively impact ones goal of fat loss, a lot of fruit would have to be eaten.

For example,

1 Medium Apple:
Sugars, total 14.34g
Sucrose 2.86g
Glucose (dextrose) 3.35g
Fructose 8.14g

1 Medium Banana
Sugars, total 14.43g
Sucrose 2.82g
Glucose (dextrose) 5.88g
Fructose 5.72g

1 Medium Pear
Sugars, total 16.27g
Sucrose 1.29g
Glucose (dextrose) 4.58g
Fructose 10.34g


You get the point etc....

Another neat thing about consuming fruit is the effect it has on blood glucose which was brought up in my interview with Dr Berardi. Check the interview archives.

TheGimp
06-11-2004, 02:36 AM
Point being that veggies (and other plant foods, grains too) have all the phytochemicals that fruit does, without the fructose (which is bad).
Many veggies contain fructose, albeit in smaller amounts than fruit



Lactose acts the same way (actually I believe, if memory isn't failing me, there is a slight difference, but for all practical purposes consider it the same)
Indeed. Lactose is a disaccharide composed of 50% glucose and 50% galactose. It is the latter which also preferentially refills liver glycogen. While on this subject, sucrose, or table sugar, is also a disaccharide composed of 50% glucose and 50% fructose.


The point remains that fruit is acceptable on a cut. Or at any time for that matter. It is not ideal, no, and should certainly be eaten in moderation, with the majority of carbs coming from complex sources like wholewheat products, brown rice and sweet potatoes. And it is definitely not suitable for postworkout nutrition. However there are also several pros for eating fruit such as: it tastes good, it is a good source of fiber, keeping you full, it is a source of phytonutrients, it is a source of vitamins with a greater bioavailability than supplements.

galileo
06-11-2004, 10:49 AM
Adding fruit has improved my cutting tremdously. I've had more success with vegetables and fruit than I ever had with whole wheat products and brown rice. In fact, there isn't much of a difference between brown and white rice anyhow, aside from minor amounts of fiber. Check the GI/II for both types.

Holto
06-11-2004, 11:50 AM
exactly...

whole wheat and brown rice are alot more calorie dense than fruit

the whole thing about fructose spilling over to fat stores is rediculous

if that mattered than it would also be important to avoid eating fat

sure the liver might convert it to fat but why would that magically and instantly get stored as bodyfat - as if it can't be used as energy

fructose got a bad rap by being added to junk food

as Maki pointed out taking in 8g's of fructose in an apple is alot different than taking in 100g's a day from a few soda's

geoffgarcia
06-11-2004, 12:01 PM
Cooked vegetables have a lower fructose content and are recommended in preference to raw as the cooking process causes a loss of free sugars.
I wonder if this holds true for fruits as well?

ace dogg
06-11-2004, 02:06 PM
Good stuff Maki. Although I would argue that since other carbs also go to liver glycogen, it wouldn't actually take the 75-100g of pure fructose in order for the spill-over to occur. I'll check the article later, gotta do some things and pick up the girl soon.

gimpy - Would you agree that on a bulking diet fructose would make a person store a lot more fat than if they ate glucose based carbs? The light irony here is that it is a bigger issue when trying to not gain fat, rather than trying to lose it. Bulking vs cutting. I don't really think it is going to mater *that much* when cutting, but for the reason mentioned above it's still not the greatest idea. Takes energy away from muscles in order to give it to fat.

To throw in some subjective matter (aka experience), back in the day when I was new to dieting and the like, I was bulking. And due to me being a genetically skinny white boy (on top of being pretty active) I have to eat inhumane amounts of food to put on a decent amount of weight. I was getting it all from complex glucose based carbs and doing pretty well, but it was just so fookin tough to get all the food in...I ended up deciding to just drink some OJ to substitute for glucose based carbs in a couple meals...and I got very noticably fatter...and quick. It sucked. I think this ties in nicely to what I'm saying here.

Veggies = ace. I dunno how anyone seems to think I feel otherwise, or if those comments are just random.

Maki Riddington
06-11-2004, 02:57 PM
My point is this, fruit can be used quite effectively in a cutting program, granted you don't go overboard. It goes against your line of thinking that fruit is bad.

ace dogg
06-11-2004, 06:13 PM
Yeah like I said...maybe I'm the only one with that mentality. If better is possible, good is bad.

Vido
06-11-2004, 06:51 PM
Yeah like I said...maybe I'm the only one with that mentality. If better is possible, good is bad.

I'm with you ace dogg. Can fruit be used effectively when cutting? Sure. Are there other sources of carbs that are probably better? I think so anyway.