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skyjumper
06-08-2004, 11:44 PM
This is the way I like to work out. I am a relatively big guy (6'1" 225), and I like to run. I may run for 20-25 min on the treadmill at an 8 min mile pace, and then go do squats, stiff-legged deads and donkey calves. I can't use quite as much weight as if I did cardio later or not at all, but I feel like I'm doing more work and getting much more out of it. It is definitely harder, and the results are good. Why is lifting with depleted glycogen levels a bad thing?

Why do most shun cardio prior to lifting?

Thanks

HemiVision
06-09-2004, 12:13 AM
This is the way I like to work out. I am a relatively big guy (6'1" 225), and I like to run. I may run for 20-25 min on the treadmill at an 8 min mile pace, and then go do squats, stiff-legged deads and donkey calves. I can't use quite as much weight as if I did cardio later or not at all, but I feel like I'm doing more work and getting much more out of it. It is definitely harder, and the results are good. Why is lifting with depleted glycogen levels a bad thing?

Why do most shun cardio prior to lifting?

Thanks

Your glycogen stores provide energy for lifting, which explains why you can't lift as much after depleting them with cardio. Working out at a reduced strength level is not conducive to muscle gains.

Besides, your cardio will be more effective at fat burning once you've depleted your glycogen level with weights... so lifting first is win-win.

Vido
06-09-2004, 12:20 AM
Also, it is easier to run when tired than to squat or deadlift when tired, so it only makes sense to do the lifting first. In fact, for optimal results your cardio and lifting sessions should be separated, but this might not be an option for you.

skyjumper
06-09-2004, 01:45 AM
Your glycogen stores provide energy for lifting, which explains why you can't lift as much after depleting them with cardio. Working out at a reduced strength level is not conducive to muscle gains.

Besides, your cardio will be more effective at fat burning once you've depleted your glycogen level with weights... so lifting first is win-win.

Thanks for the reply, but you made some invalid assumptions here:

I lift nearly as much weight as when I don't do cardio (within 5-10 % I'd say), and I'm doing more work, so I am making significant muscle gains.

My primary goal in doing cardio is not fat-burning, but performance (speed).

skyjumper
06-09-2004, 01:46 AM
Also, it is easier to run when tired than to squat or deadlift when tired

Says who? Remember, I'm talking about running/sprinting, not jogging. I think this boils down to a matter of preference and goals, but I can't see how cardio prior to lifting is counterproductive as I've seen others suggest.

SquareHead
06-09-2004, 02:47 AM
Says who? Remember, I'm talking about running/sprinting, not jogging. I think this boils down to a matter of preference and goals, but I can't see how cardio prior to lifting is counterproductive as I've seen others suggest.
It dose not matter if you prefer to run or squat first. When you deplete glycogen stores by doing cardio before the lift your body will have less effective means for fueling the lift, it the lift will suffer.

emjlr3
06-09-2004, 07:29 AM
weight lifting will help your speed jsut fine and dandy...and if your going for speed you dont need to be doing cardio, there are specific things to do when working on that, of which id be happy to help you with just pm me

Also i dont think cardio after a lift is good either, because after your done your lift your msucles are screaming for the food you eat to help em get better...but if u get straight to cardio for an hour then all that stuff goes to you running and not your muscles, which cant be good either....right????

ElPietro
06-09-2004, 07:34 AM
If you want more speed perhaps you should focus on running on a seperate day. Although, I'd think sprints would help speed more, unless you are training long distance or something like that.

lex
06-09-2004, 07:37 AM
i myself do minimum cardio after a workout once a week, and maximum cardio twice a week without lifting

skyjumper
06-09-2004, 07:07 PM
weight lifting will help your speed jsut fine and dandy...and if your going for speed you dont need to be doing cardio, there are specific things to do when working on that, of which id be happy to help you with just pm me

Also i dont think cardio after a lift is good either, because after your done your lift your msucles are screaming for the food you eat to help em get better...but if u get straight to cardio for an hour then all that stuff goes to you running and not your muscles, which cant be good either....right????

Are you suggesting that someone can be a fast runner without running? By cardio, I mean running.

Your muscles do need energy to recover, and they are going to get it. Either from the food you consume immediately after working out, or stored fat.

I appreciate all of your comments, but there is a bias here. Most on this board are focused on getting big (go figure!). I posted my style of working out because there are some of us that strive to be big AND fast AND lean.

Those overly concerned about preserving every bit of energy for weight training and recovery remind me of turkeys or cattle that are bred for eating. They eat and eat so that they get nice and big, but they can't even fly because they aren't trained to do so.

Augury
06-09-2004, 08:13 PM
Goodness Skyjumper...you are a little agressive towards other peoples ideas and opinions. Why post on a weight training forum if you do not want people who train for growth and power to respond to you?

Anyway...regarding cardio before weights. I want to make a distinction between "hard work" and "tension". Hard work is sakting up a hill. Hard work is training on an empty stomach. hard work is doing 15 sets of 25 reps. The ONLY thing that stimulats muscle hypertrophy is tension through the muscle in question. That tension trigger level varies depending on how well that muscle is developed already. A huge percoral muscle will not trigger growth from having to bench press 10lbs.

If your muscles are glycogen depleted they lack energy/fuel to contract effectively and efficiently.. When this is the case full fiber recruitment isnt going to happen and you will not be able to put a high enough tension through the muscle to stimulate growth.

Pain, soreness, burning..."hard work" is just lactic acid bulidup from the muscles either working anerobically or running out of glycogen. Neither one of these mechanisms promotes hypertrophy.

After all that, from what I understand you are looking to be able to sprint faster. Im sure you know as well as I, that sprinters have fairly powerful bodies with good LBM to help with the mechanical aspects of the sprint. If you want to grow the body effectively then training for growth is best done before glycogen depletion and lactic acid buildup. Obviously to increase your speed....then sprint training is the focused requirement. Bodybuliding does not make sprinters....sprinting does. The bodybuliding will help though.

Augs

skyjumper
06-09-2004, 09:05 PM
Goodness Skyjumper...you are a little agressive towards other peoples ideas and opinions. Why post on a weight training forum if you do not want people who train for growth and power to respond to you?

Anyway...regarding cardio before weights. I want to make a distinction between "hard work" and "tension". Hard work is sakting up a hill. Hard work is training on an empty stomach. hard work is doing 15 sets of 25 reps. The ONLY thing that stimulats muscle hypertrophy is tension through the muscle in question. That tension trigger level varies depending on how well that muscle is developed already. A huge percoral muscle will not trigger growth from having to bench press 10lbs.

If your muscles are glycogen depleted they lack energy/fuel to contract effectively and efficiently.. When this is the case full fiber recruitment isnt going to happen and you will not be able to put a high enough tension through the muscle to stimulate growth.

Pain, soreness, burning..."hard work" is just lactic acid bulidup from the muscles either working anerobically or running out of glycogen. Neither one of these mechanisms promotes hypertrophy.

After all that, from what I understand you are looking to be able to sprint faster. Im sure you know as well as I, that sprinters have fairly powerful bodies with good LBM to help with the mechanical aspects of the sprint. If you want to grow the body effectively then training for growth is best done before glycogen depletion and lactic acid buildup. Obviously to increase your speed....then sprint training is the focused requirement. Bodybuliding does not make sprinters....sprinting does. The bodybuliding will help though.

Augs

Good stuff, thanks. As far as your 1st para, not sure what you mean, I clearly asked for responses from others.

HemiVision
06-09-2004, 11:22 PM
Thanks for the reply, but you made some invalid assumptions here:

I lift nearly as much weight as when I don't do cardio (within 5-10 % I'd say), and I'm doing more work, so I am making significant muscle gains.


What do you mean by "more work" ? If you're lifting less weight for the same or fewer reps, you're doing less work.

dxiw
06-10-2004, 12:24 AM
you should try to jog lightly to warmup or if it has to be intense preworkout do a cardio that doesnt highly involve the muscle groups you are working.. then after the workout get some protein and do your hard cardio an hour later or a few hours before...

emjlr3
06-10-2004, 05:57 AM
yea dude your sorta mean :mad: ...ill have you know im probaably stronger then you, have less bf then you, run faster then you and jump higher then you...so i know what im talking about......to get faster and jump higher you dont do "cardio" per say, you train your fast twitch muscles fibers to be better...by doing so you dont run for long distances...you do short explosions workouts to help accompish this, and is aurgry said...and like i said....if u go and run for a whiel then lift...thats not a good thing..you either do one or the other..or your not going to get the reults out of either that you want

Augury
06-10-2004, 06:30 AM
What do you mean by "more work" ? If you're lifting less weight for the same or fewer reps, you're doing less work.

This whole concept is a valid point HemiVision and you are right. But its one that confuses folks all over the world. Its the difference between "percieved work" - what you feel you are doing/how hard you feel you are working....and actual work done as described by physics.

Work done = force x distance moved. Thats the physics. however if i tell you to pick up a 25k dumbell and hold it out at arms length and hold it real still...according to physics you are doing no work whatsoever. Distance traveled is zero. Your muscles are not changing length...they are holding a weight still. However not very long after this, you are going to drop that weight and come hit me becasue it REALLY REALLY burned and hurt you to do it. Why? Becasue you are resitisting gravity's constant downwards acceleration, even though you are not movng the weight at all. You are still having to cycle muscle fibers...as the ones holding the weight still tire, they relax and other fibers in the same muscle are recruited and take up the slack. You get lactic acid buildup and it eventually burns so much you will drop the weight.

So, its perfectly possible, if you are in a state of mild to medium exhaustion (post cardio activity) to do a milder weight training routine than you could have if you were rested but still percieve you were working much harder than the heavier but rested session. The reality of it is that physics disagrees. You FEEL you are working harder, you are more tired, you are panting and sweating...but these things do not stimulate muscle growth. Tension does. The rested, heavier weight training session moves higher weights/loads (force) over the same distances as the other, more "exhausting" but lighter session and so in the heavy session you do more mechanical work. Thus you stimulate the muscles more heavily for a growth response.

HemiVision
06-10-2004, 12:51 PM
This whole concept is a valid point HemiVision and you are right. But its one that confuses folks all over the world. Its the difference between "percieved work" - what you feel you are doing/how hard you feel you are working....and actual work done as described by physics.

Work done = force x distance moved. Thats the physics. however if i tell you to pick up a 25k dumbell and hold it out at arms length and hold it real still...according to physics you are doing no work whatsoever. Distance traveled is zero. Your muscles are not changing length...they are holding a weight still. However not very long after this, you are going to drop that weight and come hit me becasue it REALLY REALLY burned and hurt you to do it. Why? Becasue you are resitisting gravity's constant downwards acceleration, even though you are not movng the weight at all. You are still having to cycle muscle fibers...as the ones holding the weight still tire, they relax and other fibers in the same muscle are recruited and take up the slack. You get lactic acid buildup and it eventually burns so much you will drop the weight.

So, its perfectly possible, if you are in a state of mild to medium exhaustion (post cardio activity) to do a milder weight training routine than you could have if you were rested but still percieve you were working much harder than the heavier but rested session. The reality of it is that physics disagrees. You FEEL you are working harder, you are more tired, you are panting and sweating...but these things do not stimulate muscle growth. Tension does. The rested, heavier weight training session moves higher weights/loads (force) over the same distances as the other, more "exhausting" but lighter session and so in the heavy session you do more mechanical work. Thus you stimulate the muscles more heavily for a growth response.


Exactly right, and a great explanation.

skyjumper
06-10-2004, 07:54 PM
What do you mean by "more work" ? If you're lifting less weight for the same or fewer reps, you're doing less work.


You're right hemi, but as augry said, I felt like I was working harder after pre-exhaustion from running.

skyjumper
06-10-2004, 08:01 PM
yea dude your sorta mean :mad: ...ill have you know im probaably stronger then you, have less bf then you, run faster then you and jump higher then you...so i know what im talking about......to get faster and jump higher you dont do "cardio" per say

emjlr3 I'd be glad to take you on head-to-head in the sport of your choice anytime, anywhere. You did suggest one thing of value though, what do most mean when they say "cardio"? I should have been more clear about that. I am training to perform well in a two-mile run, with a powerful, sprinting, kick. This is the distance for the Army PT test. It is a constant struggle for any career soldier to get and stay big while maintaing the ability to run two miles in under 14 minutes (no juicing either).

skyjumper
06-10-2004, 08:13 PM
You FEEL you are working harder, you are more tired, you are panting and sweating...but these things do not stimulate muscle growth. Tension does. The rested, heavier weight training session moves higher weights/loads (force) over the same distances as the other, more "exhausting" but lighter session and so in the heavy session you do more mechanical work. Thus you stimulate the muscles more heavily for a growth response.

I've been asking this same question in various forums for years, brought it up during personal training certification, done research in the library and online, etc. This is the best explanation I have ever received. You spelled it out so that even I get it. Thanks.

Now this question: to maximize that growth response, how much recovery is required prior to running hard again? A challenge for me because to be a good two-miler/sprinter I need to get probably a minimum of 20 miles/week.

Vido
06-10-2004, 08:19 PM
You FEEL you are working harder, you are more tired, you are panting and sweating...but these things do not stimulate muscle growth. Tension does. The rested, heavier weight training session moves higher weights/loads (force) over the same distances as the other, more "exhausting" but lighter session and so in the heavy session you do more mechanical work. Thus you stimulate the muscles more heavily for a growth response.

With this in mind, try to explain the Weider pre-exhaustion principle.

Augury
06-10-2004, 08:57 PM
With this in mind, try to explain the Weider pre-exhaustion principle.

Im just a lowly anatomist/physiologist in the making. If you tell me what the weilder pre-exhaustion principal is ill have a shot at explaining it (or being baffled by it). Im assumig from the post that it flies in the face of what i said. Im happy to have a go though.

Augury
06-10-2004, 09:03 PM
to maximize that growth response, how much recovery is required prior to running hard again? A challenge for me because to be a good two-miler/sprinter I need to get probably a minimum of 20 miles/week.

Hmm. As the months go by people keep developing different answers to that question. The fashionable number seemingly bandied about right now is that protein synthesis and growth is pretty much done after 36 hours. I would have thought that sprinting practice (for functional strength) was more important to you than hypertrophic growth though....and so as such i would not worry overly. Do your sprinting the day after the weights. that will give you 24 hours. Just feed well.

Im probably going to get people screaming at me saying that it takes 72 hours for your muscles to recover etc etc. I didnt make the 36 hours up...im pretty sure i read it over at the HST site or bodyrecomposition (or both). Besides recovery is what? when you stop feeling sore? when protein synthesis has stopped for the muscle? Many athletes train on sore muscles every day. Its an interesting area of discussion that i like read about. I by no means claim to know a "correct" answer.

Vido
06-10-2004, 11:43 PM
Im just a lowly anatomist/physiologist in the making. If you tell me what the weilder pre-exhaustion principal is ill have a shot at explaining it (or being baffled by it). Im assumig from the post that it flies in the face of what i said. Im happy to have a go though.

You "pre-exhaust" the muscle you are working by doing an isolation movement before your compound movement. An example would be doing flyes, and then going straight into a set of bench. You would not be able to lift as much on bench, but the idea is that the target muscle has already been fried. The premise behind the principle is that it is usually not one's chest that fails on a set of bench, but one's tris or shoulders. This hopefully allows your chest to be the determining factor in how many reps you can pump out.

Weider never said to use this every workout, but to incorporate it once in a while for a change. I only bring it up because it basically goes completely against the grain of your explanation of what causes hypertrophy.

J.C.
06-11-2004, 04:41 AM
Of course you can do both. Ignore the people who say otherwise skyjumper. Basically it depends on your goals that session. There are athletes like rowers, boxers and sprinters who will train up to ten times a week and will be lifting on 3 out of seven days and they will be [I]huge and fast[I]. On your weights days it is probably best to cardio afterwards and keep it light(ish) if you are looking for a really good weights session and do weights afterwards if you want to do hard cardio that day and be fresh for that. I have done weights sessions after 60min cardio and still produced results. The way these sort of athletes who "have it all" manage to do so much endurance work and yet keep their muscle mass is by eating! I know that international rowers eat over 6000 calories a day (which is mostly carbohydrate) and these guys are 100+Kg. What I'm saying is, doing both types of training will slow down your muscle gains but not stop them. And you have to eat more and sleep more to recuperate. :thumbup:

Augury
06-11-2004, 07:57 AM
You "pre-exhaust" the muscle you are working by doing an isolation movement before your compound movement. An example would be doing flyes, and then going straight into a set of bench. You would not be able to lift as much on bench, but the idea is that the target muscle has already been fried. The premise behind the principle is that it is usually not one's chest that fails on a set of bench, but one's tris or shoulders. This hopefully allows your chest to be the determining factor in how many reps you can pump out.

Weider never said to use this every workout, but to incorporate it once in a while for a change. I only bring it up because it basically goes completely against the grain of your explanation of what causes hypertrophy.

Actually it really dosnt. It just depends what you are trying to achive. As you said, Weilder admitted it "pre exhausted the muscle". So That is exactly what it does. it pre-exhausts it in exactly the same way (well not exactly the same way but similarly) theat cardio is pre-exhausting Skyjumper. The practical upshot here is that you are going into a compound chest exercise with a pre-exhausted chest.

The principal Weilder is using is that when you do the compound chest exercise you never get to full recruit/stimulate all the chest fibers for hypertrophy becasue your triceps fail first meaning you cant do the compound movement anymore. By pre-exhausting the chest (stimulation for hypertrophic growth of the pecs probably half occured here) and then going into the compound movement the chest is now going to be the weakest link in the compound chain rather than the triceps.

Thus, as the pecs now approaches failure, all the type IIb fibers in the pecs will be recruited to try and make the movement happen (whilst the triceps are still going strong) and thus maximal hypertrophic growth in the pecs will be stimulated.

Dont get that confused with glycogen depletion caused by cardio training before doing a weights session. if you are all shakey, exhausted and glycogen depleted before you start to weght train your muscles just wont have the supporting evergy to cause maximal contraction (that weilder was talking about) that will stimulate hypertrophic growth.

I know that pre-exhausting the muscle seems like its making it weaker...but what its actually doing is ensuring it is the first muscle in the kinematic chain of the compound movement to fail and thus is the muscle that will have to recurut ALL ists type II fibers to try to make the last reps. Also the method of pre-exhaustion matters. If you did 4 sets to failure on the flys then you probably wouldnt get much of a chest press. If you did one or two medium sets on flys avoiding failure then that would make logical sense and achieve the goal he was shooting for.

Hope that makes sense
Augs

Vido
06-11-2004, 10:21 AM
Excellent explanation again Augury.