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Augury
06-09-2004, 05:44 AM
Well well well. Here I am in an unexpected thread. For those of you who followed my UD2 fat loss extraviganza (all 7 days of it) im sure things have reached a nailbiting fever pitch. Will Augs quit after 7 days of UD2 mass gain? Will Augs gain any mass? Will Augs become unofficial world leader to the masses? Will it all be done in 2 hours in time to discuss the film on the way home from the cinema with your mates? One thing I can assure you of.....its got a big budget. So thats gotta be good right? Special effects galore, no expense spared on CGI effe....*sound of me throttling my inner monologue*

Right. Back to the Diet. So...UD2 mass variant. Let me address some issues that have been raised. Lots of people seem to be of the opinion that Lyle tagged "mass gain UD2" onto the end of UD2 so he could say it could be used for massgain. I freely admit that it appears that not a great deal of thought went into the variant. However....I was thinking myself last night....and here is what I thought. UD2 fatloss is a diet designed to preserve muscle mass (if not slightly increase it) whilst shedding fat at a rapid and constant rate by messing with body partitioning. Why then does it require pages and pages and pages of new info to do the opposite? It dosnt. All UD2 mass gain is...is a variant. It increases calories until fat loss goes from fast....to slow....to a halt. At that stage you are no longer adding fat to the bodyweight...and anything that is added is going to be muscle. Its just a sliding scale.

There are by far better and faster ways to bulk. However this is designed to be the cleanest bulk there can be as you are simply sliding a scale of fatloss to the just "off" position and so as weight is gained, hopefully it will be lean muscle mass. The tradeoff here is ammount. I am under no illusion that i will be gaining LBM fast. If I wanted to do that i would toss away my fat calipers and quit writing this journal. I wold be too busy eating things to type. to busy pounding metal (no Lars, not *that* metal) to type. Blah blah.

So UD2 mass gain variant is simply UD2 fatloss with the fatloss turned off. If im eating more calories than im burning, and im not gaining fat...then hey presto....i have to be gaining muscle. Humour me...its my journal so im allowed to live in a simplistic world where my goals will be achieved and the orchestral music swells everytime i look into the camera.

So...math time next post....cos who wants to trawl through all this crap I just write just to check my embarasing stats?

Augs

TheGimp
06-09-2004, 06:54 AM
Hey Augs :)

Good luck with taking things in a new direction. I really am looking forward to hearing how it works out!

Augury
06-09-2004, 08:33 AM
Starting Stats:

Age: 32
Height: 5'7
Weight: 63kg (138.9lbs)
LBM: 54.0kg (119.1)
Fatmass: 9.0kg (20.3)
Bodyfat: Guess at 13-14% (mirror style) - Stubborn fat on low abs (ironically less so now. I can even see a vague 4 pack in the right light. Thanks 1 week of UD2), low back (i hate the fat on my back. wtf is it doing there? hiding? think i cant see it huh?) and a bit on nipples (good for girls. not good for men). Just ordered some fat calipers. They are en route to my humble abode. Im hoping desperately that as i grow (stop laughing at the back) the fat i have will be stretched over more muscle and look less...erm...fatty? Ok...thats a pathetic premise but im sticking to it. I hope all of you who told me to bulk are reasing this and taking notes on how to rationalise anything you want from any angle :)

Goals: Ok. These have shifted.
Goal number one: To see an increase of 10lb in my LBM. To me that seems unobtainable (even with fat gain)...simply becasue im me and things like that dont happen to me. I am not expecting to achieve this goal in the 8 weeks im doing this for. If i manage to even see 5lb in 8 weeks i would be happy as a pig in s***. Thats a longerterm goal.
Goal number two: Not to quit this till ive done 8 full, solid weeks of it. If its working, carry on until goal 1 is done. If its not working ill probably already know why.

Then what? Ill worry about it when i get there..mmkkay?
Im doing the "day forward shifted" UD2:MG so my cycle starts on tuesday.

Maintenance Calories: From my week of UD2:FL and other experience i know that my maintenance calories was too high a guess. I based it on 15xweight. So...based on 14 x weight = 139x14 = 1946

Depletion Diet Days [maintenance -15%]
Tue: Depletion oriented tension workout (see w/o post).
Wed: Depletion oriented tension workout (see w/o post).
Thur: Recovery. 40-60 min Bike ride in the forest for cardio.

Total Cals: 1655
Carb: 100g
Protein: 140g
Fat: 109g
Meals at: 9am, 1pm, 5pm, 9pm, bedtime shake.

Friday [maintenance -15%] for AM followed by Carbload
Friday Morn/Afternoon: 40-60 min bikeride for cardio
Total Cals: 1103
Carb: 67g
Protien: 93g
Fat: 72g
Meals at: 9am, 1pm, 5pm.

Friday Evening: Tension Workout (see w/o post)
CarbLoad Goal at 16g/kgLBM = 864g over 30 hrs
CL meal 1: post w/or shake. C: 100g (gluc+ fruc), P: 30g whey
CL meal 2: 9pm. C: 100g
CL meal 3: bedshake. C: 50g, P:15g whey, 1/4 cup CottCheese for Caesin
Total Carbs for eve: 250g.
Need to also make up: 47g of prot. Fat will be from tag along CL.
Evening Cals: 1323
Evening Carbs: 250g
Evening Prot: 47g
Evening Fat: 15g

Total for Friday:
Cals: 2426
Carbs: 317g
Prot: 140g
Fat: 87g

Saturday: Rest + CarbLoad Day [864-250=614g carbs left to eat]
Total Cals: 3560
Carb: 615g
Protien: 140g
Fat: 60g (reduced due to fat sensitivty on CL days)
Meals at: 9am(120g), 10:30am(120g), 12pm(100g), 3pm(100g)
6pm(80g), 9pm(70g), bedtime shake(25g).

Sunday: Power Workout [maintenance + 10%]
Total Cals: 2140
Carbs set at 5g/kg of LBM = 54 x 5 = 270g
protien: 140g
Fat: 55g
Meals: 9am, 1pm, 5pm, 9pm
Pre w/o shake at 11:30am. carbs 30g, protien 15g (whey)
Power W/o at 12pm.

Monday: Rest day [maintenance +10%]
Cardio in evening
Total Cals: 2140
Total Carbs: 3g/kg LBM of carbs = 162g
Total Prot: 140g
Total Fat: 103g

Grad Totals for Week:
Cals: 15,231 = 2175 per day = maintenance + 10% overall.

So... its possible there arent enough calories across the entire week to supliment much growth. Much depends on my "real" maintenance. The only way to find this out is by doing it and adjusting the calories up as the weeks go by until im gaining weight. Should be easy enough to do now the template is set. Will prolly be a case of reducing the defiicit on tues/wed/thurs from -15% to -10% or even maintenance and increasing sunday/monday from 10% to 15% or more as needed. I wont mess with the carb numbers at all as they are integral to the patritioning mechanism.

Enough physiology already. This took 2 hours solid.
Augs.

Augury
06-09-2004, 08:35 AM
Thanks Gimp...lol. As you can see i was busy typing a goddamn essay whilst you were posting :)

Im having fun with the numbers. I love being anal. Now I gotta hustle and get my ass to the gym for the second depletion day and then weh i get back later tonight from my g/f house i will post up tuesday and wednesdays actual tales. Oh the facination.

Augs

Vido
06-09-2004, 10:26 AM
I was bored yesterday at work, so I just quickly calculated how many calories I'd be at for the week once I get to the mass variation and I came up with: maintenance + 15-20%. The difference between mine and yours comes from me setting the depletion days to -10% as opposed to your -15%, and me eating slightly more on both Friday and Saturday. Now, which one of us is going to have better results? No idea. However, I do think it would be good if you posed the question of "what would be an optimal target to be over maintenance for the week" over on Lyle's board (I know you're signed up there, and I'm too lazy to do so myself :D).

If you think about it, the way one is timing one's nutritional intake on this diet, one could probably see favourable body composition changes even at maintenance level. Being over maintenance clearly makes the whole situation more anabolic, but where is the line drawn when fat gain slowly creeps up on you? I'm sure it is person-dependent, but I'd be very interested to hear Lyle's views on this.

Augury
06-09-2004, 10:44 AM
The Gimp asked: "What do you do at uni?"

Im studying to be an Osteopath. If you are in england then thats an osteopath. If you are in america then its a little harder to explain. Think Chiropractor...but with less emphasis on the belief that everything is fixable by adjusting the spine and more emphases on actually thinking about wtf is actually wrong with the patient. If their knee is all screwed up there is little sense in fixing their spine up.

Its a 5 year course and basically mirrors medical courses for Doctors over here in england but for a few points. We dont do drugs. So we dont learn about drugs. We do however learn about commonly prescribed drugs, but we dont need to prescribe them. Apart from that the physiology, anatomoy, pathology blah blah is all the same. Instead of drugs we use physical manipulation of soft tissue (muscle, tendon, ligamet) and also manipulation of joints. We do a hell of a lot of neural stuff too. I think ive answered that now :)

Vido:

Interesting you should post all that. It didnt occur to me till right at the end of my epic maths that i should prolly sanity check what i was doing by adding up the whole weeks calories and diving by 7. I was pleasantly surprised to discover on average i was eating over maintenance. I think this adds to the wegith of the argument that Lyle didnt just tag it on at the end of the book as an afterthought.

I will post the question you asked on the boards....but lyle dosnt seem to anser my posts lol. Im probably not important enough! That said...lots of other pretty knowledgable people do answer though. I think i can pretty much guess the answer anyways....but ill prolly be wrong. I like to think first tho:

The carb cycling is the key that is causing the partitioning of calories either to fat burning at the beginning of the week and glycogen repletion/muscle gain at the end of the week. Raising the overall average calorific intake is going to allow overspill of calories that arent needed. If it happens at the beginning of the week it will be in terms of too much fat and thus may kickthe body into storing fat as dietary fat. If it happens at the back end of the week then its going to happen as carbs (you would be a fool to eat too much fat during a carbload - Lyle said it leads straight to your waist due to various sensitivities being up). If its carbs you are overeating then your body will max out the glycogen stores and then swap to carb burning for fuel. its easier to burn carbs that fat. The bad part is that whilst the body is burning blood glycogen for fuel there is nothing to do with the fat intake you do have...so it will store it as fat. Either way you lose and bodyfat goes up.

So basically...its going to be a suck and see method. Ill keep nudging up the numbers, with a bias i think towards nudging the back end of the week up preferentially to the front and let skinfold results tell me if im gaining too much fat too fast. Obviously if im gaining muscle rapidly i will forgive myself lol :) Ill prolly load the back of the week 60% and the front 40%. So if i increase my weekly caloric intake by say 500 cals....then it would split like this:

500 x 40% = 200cals added across tue, wed, thur (=66 cals per day there)
500 x 60% = 300cals added across sat, sun, mon (=100 cals per day there)

The macro ratios are quite different in different parts of the week as i said...so adding cals into the beginning of the week means adding fat basically. Adding cals into the end of the week means adding carbs (on the non load days) and as little fat as i can get away with.

Am i making the slightest bit of sense or is this all total rubbish lol???

Augs

Vido
06-09-2004, 05:07 PM
I'm not actually all that familiar with what dietary fat does inside your body. I get most of my fat from EFA's and I wouldn't have thought these were burned as fuel. That is why this statement confuses me:

"The bad part is that whilst the body is burning blood glycogen for fuel there is nothing to do with the fat intake you do have...so it will store it as fat. Either way you lose and bodyfat goes up."

Don't EFA's promote optimal hormone levels? And as such I don't see how burning blood glycogen for fuel would interfere with this.

Augury
06-09-2004, 06:37 PM
Well, I may be misguided here and its perfectly possible...but Ill give it my best shot at explaining it as i understand it. If you find out otherwise..please let me know!

The quote of mine you didnt understand...its really not about what fat does. Its about what its not doing. Let me explain.

As you go towards ketosis, you are low on carbs, low on glycogen and fat is mobilized. Fatty blood levels rise massively and the body starts to use fat as fuel. Specifically for the brain...it cannot function if there is no glycogen and resorts to using ketones that are derived from fat. Anyhow...the upshot is we start to use fat for fuel.

Now as we hit carbload...that whole schebang changes. For a time we can carbload our asses off becasue the fat for fuel partitioning hasnt changed. If you keep eating carbs tho...it will change...quite quickly (a day? 2 days? as far as i can make out from lyle). All those carbs go straight to refulling the deplted glycogen stores. However...if you over eat carbs then suddenly the carbs have nowhere to go. The stores are full (16g/kg of bodyfat) and the body is faced with a choice. You now have more calories than it needs...and it can do one of two things...burn dietary fat (the fat you eat) and convert the excess carbs to bodyfat (the fat you have round your waist) OR...burn glycogen (carbs turned into bloodbourne glycogen which you now have an excess of) and store the dietary fat (the fat you just ate that day) as bodyfat. Either way...you are going to store fat. As it happens the body will always choose to burn glycogen as fuel and store dietary fat as bodyfat because it is VERY efficient at doing that. converting carbs to bodyfat and burning dietary fat is a much less efficient process.

Now the only curveball you threw me was the EFA's. Im going to go out on a limb here...a fat is a fat. If you eat 50g a day of EFA's and your body needs all that....then great....you wont gain fat. If you eat 250g of EFA's...im going to say that despite them being "essential" its going to go right ahead and store the excess it dosnt need as bodyfat. Fats are intrinsically part of hormone production....but the body can store dietary fat VERY easily as bodyfat and then, if it needs to go make a bunch of hormones, it can mobilize them just as easily.

This making sense?

Vido
06-09-2004, 07:00 PM
Ok, that makes sense to me.

Why though are we assuming that we don't "need" these calories from the fat? Just using your planned diet as an example, you're only at 10% above maintenance for the week. As this is the mass gain version of UD2, the goal is obviously to gain some weight (with as much of it being muscle as possible). Considering the demands being put on your body from the lifting and cardio, I don't see how you're going to gain much, if any, fat from being at only 10% over maintenance. I would think these calories are in fact needed to promote recovery and growth.

Augury
06-09-2004, 07:44 PM
Oh I quite agree! The leftover calories are for exactly that....growth and recovery. However it only goes so far. If you overeat.....(being silly) say 10,000 calories per day....you will end up putting on 10lbs of fat per week and 1lb of muscle.

Im pretty sure we are arguing the same argument here. I was simply trying to explain the mechanism by which either far or carbs is stored as bodyfat and to explain it i needed to "invent" an excess of them for the purposes of the explanation.

Hopefully with the UD2 mass gain....the calorie surplus combined with the cunning partitioning Lyle manufactures with the carb cycling will result in only muscle mass growth. But obviously if I go raising calories to 50% or 90% above maintenance then no ammount of cunning carb cycling and partitioning is going to stop whats not needed for growth or recovery from getting stored as bodyfat.

I think there is some biological limit (protein synthesis speed prolly) that simply stops us putting on more than 1lb per week of muscle. If we try to go faster we just end up adding more and more bodyfat to the mix. the slower we gain LBM the chances of adding bodyfat become much much lower.

Augs

Vido
06-09-2004, 07:56 PM
Alright we're on the same page then. What you're saying is exactly what was discussed briefly in this thread before it got cut short:

http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=48768

That brings us back to the original question of what % over maintenance for the week one should aim for on this bulk. It can probably vary a lot depending on the person, but it would still be interesting to hear Lyle give a range. I mean if he says 10-20% then no big deal, but if he comes up with something like 30-40% then we know we're quite a ways off base.

Augury
06-09-2004, 08:31 PM
Agreed. Ill endevour to find out without getting flamed for "not reading what it says in the book" lol. They can be quite blunt with people over there sometimes. Heh.

Augs.

Augury
06-09-2004, 09:16 PM
WORKOUT REGIMEN for UD2:Mass Gain.


Tues/Wed - Depletion Oriented Tension Workout
Leg Press: 2x11
Leg Curl: 2x11
Flat Bench: 2x11 (Tuesday swapped to Incline Dumbell Press)
Machine Row: 2x11 (Tuesday swapped to Lat Pulldown)
Lateral Raise: 2x11
Calf Raise: 2x11
Skulls: 2x11
Hammer Curls: 1x11

One min rest between sets. Working sets are at 70% max.
Once you have made it all the way through, rest two mins and do it all again.

Friday - Tension Workout
A1 - Leg Press: 2x9
A2 - Leg Curl: 2x9
F - Calf Raises: 3x9
B1 - Bench Press: 2x9
C1 - Incline Dumbell Press: 2x9
B2 - Machine Row: 2x9
C2 - Lat Pulldown: 2x9
E1 - Military Press: 2x9
E2 - Lateral Raise: 2x9
D1 - Hammer Curl: 2x9
D2 - Skullcrushers: 2x9

Warmup sets where appropriate. Working sets are at 85% max
1:30 mins rest between supersets. Supersetting similar letter exercises.

Sunday - Power Workout
A1 - Hack Squats: 2x5
A2 - Calf Raise: 2x5
B1 - Flat Bench: 2x5
B2 - Machine Row: 2x5
C1 - Incline Bench Press: 2x5
C2 - Lat Pulldown: 2x5
D - Leg Press 1x5
E1 - Military Press: 2x5
E2 - Posterior Delts: 1x5
F1 - Hammer Curls: 1x5
F2 - Skullcrushers: 2x5

2 warmup sets performed for each working set unless muclses are already warmed from previous variants.
3-5 mins rest between sets but with supersetting imilar letters rest is cut down to 2 mins between supersets.
Working sets performed at 90-95%.

Augury
06-10-2004, 04:24 AM
Vido:

Here is the question I posted over on BodyRecomp.com:

I started the UD2 Massgain Variant on tuesday and am thusfar having no problems with the difference between it and UD2 Fatloss. I believe I have most of it dialed in correctly including workout changes. However I do have one question:

I did the maths for all my calorific and macro req's during each day of the diet and then, as a sanity check at the end, I added up the total number of calories for the whole week and divided by 7. (this included all carbload calories...everything). The result came out at almost exactly (just a tad over) my maintenance+10% per day on average. So I was pleased to see that in total over the week im eating above maintenance (as makes sense for bulking) but the question is:

Is eating at 10% over maintenance overall going to be enough for massgain in general? Is that enough for muscle gain, recovery etc. Im asking this question on behalf of myself and several other people over at WBB Forums as they are also just coming off UD2 Fatloss and want to try the massgain variant.

If Maintenance + 10% isnt creating weight gain (be it LBM or fat) then where in the week is it best to increase caliries?

Over the whole week generally? Loaded towards the depletion end? Loaded towards the power workout day and the day off after?

Thanks in advance
Augs


Hopefully that is basically what we are both asking. We will see if there are any replies.

Augury
06-10-2004, 04:31 AM
Man this thread is huge and I havent even posted and goddamn daily logs yet. I had best get on with writing them up before I get too far behind. I have decided to keep my dailys short, sweet and factual. Almost the perfect girl. Apart from the factual. Oh and hot is missing. Short, sweet and hot training logs? This isnt a porn log. Gods, lowish carbs is making my mind totally wander. Does anyone here actually read the rubbish I post? Ever heard of a comedy series on british television called "Spaced"? If you have then you can just see Tim reading this and saying "skip to the end.." If you havent then it means nothing and is lame. If you have it probably also is lame. I give up. Tough crowd.

Oh..heh. I just realised this is my training log so I can type what I want in here even if its off topic. Cos its mine. So I can. If I wanted. But i dont. But I could if i wanted. I cant think of anything to say tho...so Ill do my dailys.

*wanders off tail between legs*

Augs the merciless.

Augury
06-10-2004, 05:05 AM
Tuesday, 8th June

Just for the record, I wasnt totally sure I was doing UD2 massgain on this day. I was reading like crazy about it and trying to shoot my general macro ratios in its general direction just incase I did start it officially. Which I did.

Depletion Day 1. Cals at Maintenance - 15%.
Total Cals: 1363 (292 under)
Carb: 131g (30g over...oops)
Protein: 124g (16 under)
Fat: 40g (69g under)

So, obviously lack of fat accounts for sooting under in calories made up for partially by eating too many carbs. Hey its day 1 and I wasnt sure if i was even doing it. K? (i argue with my own guilty concience - nothing to worry about). f/w= freewight. m/c = machine. Dont bust my balls over the weights - I had to do 90 reps of these puppies.

m/c Leg Press : 6x15x198
m/c Leg Curl : 6x15x66
f/w Flat Bench : 6x15x71.5
m/c Row : 6x15x44
f/w Lateral Raise : 3x15x11
m/c Calf Raise : 6x15x176
f/w Skulls: 4x15x27.5
f/w Hammer Curls: 4x15x18

Again, becasue I wasnt even sure I was doing this, I went to the gym and did a straight depletion exercise set as if i was on UD2 Fatloss. I have since modified it as per Lyles instructions for massgain variant. So, in a way that was good, becasue i shot way over carbs so I depleted my ass down fare and square. Deplretion exercises were pretty hard but not as hideous as i remember. Oh. I ate 80g more carbs than this time last week...no wonder it wasnt so bad. See how even day one of a diet is a mess? I promise Ill get this dialed in more accurately.

Augs

Augury
06-10-2004, 05:24 AM
Wednesday, 9th June

Depletion Day 2. Cals at Maintenance - 15%.
Total Cals: 1381 ( 274 under EAT MORE FAT!!!)
Carb: 118g (18g over...still oops but coming down)
Protein: 124g (16 under - close but no cigar)
Fat: 48g (61g under - EAT MORE Of THIS STUFF)

Did it again. UD2 Fatloss has conditioned me (along with the rest of my life) to eat not much fat. Oh, believe me I can eat fat like the best of them, but that would be saturated. Tasty. Mono...bland. So really...i gotta be eating far more fat. I think im going to end up drinking the stuff to get it into my food :( Carbs is slowly coming under control...need to get just a tad more protien and that will help with calories.

m/c Leg Press : 4x11x220
m/c Leg Curl : 4x11x77
f/w Incline Bench : 4x11x60.5
m/c Lat Pulldown : 4x11x88
f/w Lateral Raise : 2x11x14
m/c Calf Raise : 4x11x198
f/w Skulls: 4x11x38.5
f/w Hammer Curls: 2x11x22

Ok. So this was my first shot through what should have been my second day of depletion oriented tension w/o. basically heavier weights than a straight depletion and 8 sets total rather than 12 across the two days. Reps from 15 down to 11. Will actually use 12 next week. Was harder than i expected on some exercises. Has a different feel to straight depletion...more physically demanding of force/anger. Less of the "im going to puke" feeling. But then ive had too many carbs the last 2 days (almost 50g too many so its buffering me). Im pretty sore becasue due to last weeks gym closing disaster i ended up doing the Fatloss Powerworkout on monday, followed by these two days of depletion/tension workouts. 3 days in the gym makes a very sore Augs.

Rest day tomorrow. Thank god. Im going to get the diet wrestled into total submission and nailed.

Augs

Augury
06-10-2004, 10:39 AM
Vido, Gimp...anyone else who is interested and reading this log...here is the thread I started up over on BodyRecomposition regarding finding out just how much over maintenance one should eat. As i am typing this i was just struck by a very important thought but i dont have time to explain it right now so ill leave myself a cryptic little note and write it up when i get back from My HITT training: partition/CL/average/chocolatebinging.

Here is the link to the thread. Lyle finally came in and okd everyones advice so Im happy.

Total Calories to eat during UD2 Mass Gain variant. (http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=23345#post23345)

Augs

Jezmason
06-10-2004, 10:47 AM
Spaced rules, and good look with the bulking, im gonna try cutting with UD2.0 soon, i just got the PDF...should b fun :( . U seen Shawn Of The Dead?

TheGimp
06-10-2004, 11:51 AM
Shawn Of The Dead

Good film. I've never seen Spaced but have heard it's a lot like it. Maybe I should do some downloading :D :D :D

Augury
06-10-2004, 11:59 AM
Yeah, I saw Shawn of the dead. An absolute classic. I laughed all the way through. It was like a super extended Spaced episode. I really love the way the Spaced team write comedy, totally appeals to me.

Regarding my odd notes of "partition/CL/average/chocolatebinging" I will shoot for the exlpanation of Lyles comments re the massgain variant.

Its easier to think of UD2 as a week of two halfs. If you are on the fatloss variant then mon-thursday are fatmobilization and high fatloss and low muscle loss. Friday-sunday are muscle gain to counter if not surpass the earlier fatloss.

For massgain its the other way around. You increase calories and so mon-thursdays fatmobilization/high fatloss/low muscle loss turns into fatmobilization/low fatloss/no or a little muscle gain and then friday-sunday become little or some fatgain (canceling out the earlier slight fatloss) and high muscle gain.

So from this you can see that UD2:FL results in high fatloss with a tiny muscle gain. UD2:MG reults in low or no fatloss with a high muscle gain.

From there you can see that adding calories to the wrong end of the week with throw a total spanner into the works. If you want to speed up fatloss in UD2:FL then remove calories from the beginning of the week end....if you want to increase muscle gain in UD2:MG then you need to add calories into the end of the week. This is all down to partitioning. At the end of the week the body is fully anabolic, partitioning towards glycogen storage and repair. Adding calories here will give the body more of what it needs. However, it is also likely to result in an increase in bodyfat if you add too much. Thats the line you always will walk whilst bulking...but the difference between normal bulking and UD2 bulking is the carb cycle partitioning that you have created with the glycogen depletion. Adding calories across the last 3 days is the best time to do it becasue the body is totally geared up to dealing with them in a way that builds muscle and not lays down bodyfat.

The odd reference i made to chocolate was just in reference to doing things as an average. If you add a few calories across all the days on UD2 it just hampers the balance. its better to add the calories in a more concentrated lump across three days when the partitioning is set up to deal with it. My odd analogy regarding chocolate was kinda along the lines of if you are going to each chocolate then eat the whole bar in one eveing and **** out what your body cant process or lay down as fat. Eat it slowly across the week and your body will store it all lovingly as fat. if that makes any sense. I dont think its physiologically accurate but you get my drift. I think im talking to myself anyhow :))

Augs

Augury
06-10-2004, 12:27 PM
Just did HITT training on my mountain bike for the first time ever. I dont reccomend doing that in a low carb state....still....walking around my flat with my flatmate asking me if i was drunk was amusing.

Just ordered a pair of acumeasure BF calipers so i can actually track the **** thats going on with my body. Ive always wanted a pair.

A question to anyone reading....what on earth do you eat on low carb days? How do you get that "full" feeling. Im on maintenance calories (-20%) with 100g carbs and all i can do is eat fat to get my calories totals up. Ay suggestions?

Augs

Jezmason
06-10-2004, 12:34 PM
U can probably get Spaced Series 1 DVD cheap Gimp, i got it for like 5 quid from Virgin in Sheffield. And Augury...STEAK. For protein i eat a lot of steak and spinache. Chicken fills me aswell...

Jezmason
06-10-2004, 12:35 PM
Im not on a Keto diet but i only tend to eat a lot of carbs before a workout, and not many at all on rest days.

Augury
06-10-2004, 02:05 PM
I have both spaced series on DVD. Come round and watch em on my projector lol.

Spinach. hadnt thought of that. why spinach? do you just like its taste? find it filling? how much carbs is in it? tinned or fresh. I love spinach...i just never gave it a thought. Whats it like as a low carb food?

Jezmason
06-10-2004, 02:40 PM
Its sumthin along these lines when boiled from frozen-carbs-4.90, protein-3.81, fat-0.47. It may not be so good for u because of the carbs(thats per 95g/half a cup). I usually have it with a chicken breast cooked with a tiny bit of margarine. You should get away with it though seeing as you are allowed some carbs.Maybe you could try it mixed with cottage cheese/cream cheese. Sometimes i cut a chicken breast in half, fill it with spinach, wrap it in foil and stick it in the oven with some thyme or some other spice on.

Vido
06-10-2004, 05:35 PM
1) I wouldn't do HIIT cardio in a carb-depleted state. During an HIIT session your body is supposed to use carbs as fuel. If no carbs are present in the body I would think you might begin to use muscle for energy, which is clearly not good. I think this is why Lyle recommends moderate intensity cardio.

2) Fat should give you a feeling of satiety, carbs shouldn't...might just be what you're used to though. When I eat carbs I get more hungry than if I hadn't eaten anything. A couple tablespoons of peanut butter or flax oil and I'm quite satisfied about twenty minutes later.

Augury
06-10-2004, 06:22 PM
Thursday, 10th June

Depletion Day 3. Cals at Maintenance - 15%.
Total Cals: 1557 ( 98 under MUCH better thanks to olive oil)
Carb: 99g (Bingo)
Protein: 118g (22 under - ill live with that but need more)
Fat: 78g (ironically perfect)

The irony is that I made a mistake on my first page of calculations. Protein and carb intake were set by lyle in UD2. the rest of the intake for the day is made up of fat. When i worked it out i accidentally used the maintenance figure and not the maintenance -20% figure. So i was shooting for 109g of fat when i should infact have been shooting for 77g. This error has carried through my other workings and so I need to correct it. Ill do that next post and re-post the math of the diet as i can no longer edit my first post. The irony, is that today i was still under fat...but infact only 1g off where i SHOULD have been. Huzah. So in reality today was near perfect from a diet point of view apart from being under on protein.

I ran out of protein powder today and my guy who gets it for me isnt going to be getting me more till sat or sun....so ill have to be eating a lot more meat. Normally i only supliment one meal from shake anyhow for time...to the tune of about 30g of P. not a problem.

The HITT i did today was horrible. Im going to take Vido'd advice and not do anymore of that in a depleted state. If i screw up my crabload and find ive eaten to much ill use HITT to undo the mess as it apparently burns out your carbs. From now on ill make my cardio just my normal mountainbike ride through the forest.

Im feeling the effects of low carb today. Not as badly as i was at 50g though. Just now and then a bit of a hot flush....or a wave of dizzy for a few secs. Im pretty sure ill adapt after a couple more weeks. Certainly my brain is a LOT clearer than it was on 50g. I can think and talk straight. On 50g for me talking was funny...i would know what i wanted to say but my mouth would just mess it up. Was frustrating.

Ill be doing cardio tomorrow morning as its prime fat burning before the tension workout. Then eat and tension. Ill be working a lot harder in tension than i did last week on UD2:FL. I have the numbers dialed in a lot better now and so i can get myself much closer to limits, which is good for hypertrophy.

Im looking forwards to getting the calipers. Once i have them ill keep a track of my weight and my caliper readings twice a week. Im curious to be able to measure the effects of the carbload. Gona re-post my diet math now.

Augs

Augury
06-10-2004, 06:55 PM
Corrected Diet Maths.

Im doing the "day forward shifted" UD2:MG so my cycle starts on tuesday.

Maintenance Calories: From my week of UD2:FL and other experience i know that my maintenance calories was too high a guess. I based it on 15xweight. So...based on 14 x weight = 139x14 = 1946

Depletion Diet Days [maintenance -15%]
Tue: Depletion oriented tension workout (see w/o post).
Wed: Depletion oriented tension workout (see w/o post).
Thur: Recovery. 40-60 min Bike ride in the forest for cardio.

Total Cals: 1655
Carb: 100g
Protein: 140g
Fat: 77g
Meals at: 9am, 1pm, 5pm, 9pm, bedtime shake.

Friday [maintenance -15%] for AM followed by Carbload (75%)
Friday Morn/Afternoon: 40-60 min bikeride for cardio
Total Cals: 1241
Carb: 75g
Protien: 105g
Fat: 58g
Meals at: 9am, 1pm, 5pm.

Friday Evening: Tension Workout (see w/o post)
CarbLoad Goal at 16g/kgLBM = 864g over 30 hrs
CL meal 1: post w/or shake. C: 100g (gluc+ fruc), P: 30g whey
CL meal 2: 9pm. C: 100g
CL meal 3: bedshake. C: 50g, P:15g whey, 1/4 cup CottCheese for Caesin
Total Carbs for eve: 250g.
Need to also make up: 35g of prot. Fat will be from tag along CL.
Evening Cals: 1446
Evening Carbs: 250g
Evening Prot: 35g
Evening Fat: 34g

Total for Friday:
Cals: 2687
Carbs: 325g
Prot: 140g
Fat: 92g

Saturday: Rest + CarbLoad Day [864-250=614g carbs left to eat]
Total Cals: 3758
Carb: 615g
Protien: 140g
Fat: 82g (tag along from carbs - will try to reduce with less fatty carbs)
Meals at: 9am(120g), 10:30am(120g), 12pm(100g), 3pm(100g)
6pm(80g), 9pm(70g), bedtime shake(25g).

Sunday: Power Workout [maintenance + 10%]
Total Cals: 2140
Carbs set at 5g/kg of LBM = 54 x 5 = 270g
protien: 140g
Fat: 55g
Meals: 9am, 1pm, 5pm, 9pm
Pre w/o shake at 11:30am. carbs 30g, protien 15g (whey)
Power W/o at 12pm.

Monday: Rest day [maintenance +10%]
Cardio in evening
Total Cals: 2140
Total Carbs: 4g/kg LBM of carbs = 216g
Total Prot: 140g
Total Fat: 79g

Grad Totals for Week:
Cals: 15,510 = 2196 per day = maintenance + 14% overall.

Augury
06-10-2004, 07:01 PM
Thanks for the post about the spinach Jez. Thanks for the warning about HITT Vido.

Fat does actually give me a feeling of saety...but for some reason only saturated fat does this. Olive oil dosnt work like that for some reason. If i have too much of it i feel a bit sick...even if its mixed with food. I feel like its swimming in my belly.

Tomorrow i need to shop for carb load items, natural peanut butter, more chicken and spinach. Also need some low carb bread and riveta. Also looking for cocanut oil as Lyle said it contained DAG? I think he said it was half DAG....which goes into the body via the portal system not via the lymphatics. Thus it dosnt get presented to the fat cells for storage...it is available to be burned straight off...which is great if you are doing cardio etc.

By the way....is all this math and babbling helping anyone? I know a few of you are looking to do UD2 Massgain variant soon....so i hope you guys are learning from the silly mistakes ive made :)

Augs

Vido
06-10-2004, 07:26 PM
Well, I'm not starting the mass gain variant for a few weeks, so I'll let you screw up for me, and then hopefully implement the plan flawlessly myself :D. I am looking forward to seeing your results though, especially as pertains to the number of calories you're consuming (whether they're too high, too low, just right, etc.)

Two questions, one out of curiosity and one that will help us use your numbers more accurately. First, can I assume that you always ate a lot of carbs before UD2? The reason I say this is because of all these side effects you seem to be having due to the low carbs. I probably don't even eat enough carbs on the low cal days (I usually only get around 30g I'd say), and I'm experiencing no sides. Then again, I probably only eat 250-300g of carbs on a HIGH carb day while bulking, so I'm fairly used to not eating a lot of carbs. Second, what would you say your metabolism is like? I think the numbers mean a lot more if we know you tend to put fat on easily or have trouble gaining weight or are somewhere in between.

Augury
06-10-2004, 09:08 PM
Good questions.

I am a carboholic. I eat lots of bread, pasta, rice, oats when i am left to my own devices. If i was not training, not watching my diet i would probably eat something like 60% carbs without a thought. Maybee 65%.

I put on fat easily. 5 years ago I didnt. After about age 28 things changed and no longer could just cutting out cheese and butter suddenly make me lose a lb a week till i was back in shape. Now i have to do crazy things like diet and exercise! perish the thought.

To be honest...my last 4 years i have been a lazy assed bum. Im currently approaching the fittest ive been for the last 20 years. havent been this fit since i was 10 lol.

Augs

Augury
06-11-2004, 06:53 PM
Friday, 11th June

Depletion Day 4.
Cals at Maintenance - 15% first 3 meals.
Tension Workout
Begin Carbload

Total Cals: 2758 (71 over. YAY. I managed to overeat on a bulk lol)
Carb: 325g (PERFECT)
Protein: 138g (2 under. So sue me)
Fat: 105g (13 over)

Ok. SO I have the diet down. I am really happy about this. Today has been good. Spent evening eating basically all the sweet, carby snacks my friends usualy bring around to watch films with and actually loved telling them i had to eat all that **** cos i was on a diet. Started getting clean complex carbs after 2 hours tho.

I ate: chicken breast+peach halfs in syrup after w/o
a donut
oats+museli+milk (a giant bowl)
oat and raisin cookie.

Job done for tonight. Got my sugars...tomorrow will be clean carbs. Im getting really thirsty which is a GOOD sign the carb load is taking. thirsty and hot. glycogen needs water to store with it...and so water it will get!

Tension Workout
A1 - Leg Press: 2x9x242
A2 - Leg Curl: 2x9x88
F - Calf Raises: 3x9x220
B1 - Bench Press: 2x9x71.5
C1 - Incline Dumbell Press: 2x9x36
B2 - Machine Row: 2x9x55
C2 - Lat Pulldown: 2x9x90
E1 - Military Press: 2x9x60.5
E2 - Lateral Raise: 2x9x15.5
D1 - Hammer Curl: 2x9x27
D2 - Skullcrushers: 2x9x38.5

Tension w/o is an odd one. Its like halfway between a power workout for growth that im used to doing....and a depletion that i hate doing. This said i really enjoyed it. I have the supersetting down now and im getting faster and more effiecient and getting in and out the gym on this routine.

Pretty much all my weights are up over last weeks tension and next week ill be raising again. This is good progress. Im actually surprised...3 of my 4 workouts are in a depleted state and i mostly feel "alive" in them. I got a hella pump today...my veins in shoulders, arms and forearms were bulging. Biceps looked big (relative to normal)....but i dont give a rats ass about bicep size. I want bigger legs. Quads...thats what i want. And calves. Biceps are for curl jocks.

As usual, the carbload was eagerly anticipated and this week, learning from last weeks UD2 fatloss mistakes...i didnt chug down 150g of glucose. I had fruit in syrup and a chicken breast. it tasted nicer...and it didnt make me want to vommit. the carbload is taking...my body is sucking up water like i have a leak somewhere. a good sign.

BF calipers arrive on monday :)
Ill weigh myself in the gym pre-power workout. Ill also weigh myself pre tension workout when i should be fully depleted. I forgot to today...but ill get the power reading. Make a lil table for the weeks as they go by. Im feeling positive about this diet. I think i will bulk on it....and i think it will be LBM.

Augs

donraja
06-12-2004, 01:06 AM
good luck with ur goals, Augs!
Nice journal. Very informative and funny too heh

Augury
06-12-2004, 03:29 AM
Thanks donraja, appreciated. I dont see why a journal should be dull and crappy to read. At the end of the day its just a place for me to rant and put down numbers. It beats scraps of paper littering my desk.

I have a study group starting in a moment which means 8 hours of anatomy/physiology and getting "touched" lol. We do practical work too. Still....mustnt grumble. Im enjoying my carbload!

Augs

Augury
06-13-2004, 06:54 AM
Saturday, 12th June

Carbload Day 5.
Cals at silly levels due to eating 16g/kg of carbs.
Rest - Carbload

Total Cals: 3189 (569 under....hmm)
Carb: 451g (164 under - fek.)
Protein: 188g (48 over - not a bad thing i guess. should have been carbs tho)
Fat: 72g (10 under - managed to keep this lowish if nothing else)

Well, some interesting (kinda) tales to tell of today. I had a study group with friends today, which basically meant from 10am till 7pm i was going to be focusing on anatomy/physiology/osteopathy and that is a brain drain cos I mostly am the "teacher" in the situation, so there is a little pressure to be getting things right. The carbload "took" last night and continues into today. I felt like i was eating a lot of carbs...and i was hungry for them too...so i wasnt struggling. The stu[id thing was that i was focusing on the study and 3 hours would pass and id remeber i hadnt eaten.

The upshot of this was that by 7pm i was behind the eating schedule and needed to play a bit of catchup. In combination with this i was getting sleepy from carbs and heavy study. A mate i was studying with (a huge guy who i can only dream of having as much muscle as) brought around a caffene/taurine and other things powder. He said it was a kick ass stimulant.I had half. nothing happened.

He went home and i set to work on getting caught up on the carbload and then the stim kicked in. I started to get hot, elevated heart rate...hyperactive. For a while it felt good...i was bouncing all over the place playing guitar..listening to rock...thrashing out to metallica (blackened if you are remoteley interested) and generally having a laugh. Friends arrived and i dived in the shower cos i was sweaty from having my own private concert in the lounge and playing along to tallical on the guitar. When i got out...i was getting serious sympathetc ns output. My skin was crawling...goosebumping constantly. It felt like someone was tugging on my skin the whole night. Felt both happy and grumpy at the same time and i was almost shaking for 4 hours...i felt constantly hungry and thirsty but my belly was full. The last meal i had was just a vegtable slop (becasue i was craving it) and i put a lot of salt on it. The salt seemed to have an almost instant effect and I was feeling 90% better in 30 mins.

Lessons: dont drink stimulants - you are hyper enough as it is
Learn about salt and the implications of not enough and too much. Am i getting enough in my diet? I east only fresh food so its possible im getting hardly any.

Im going to try and catchup on the carbload for tomorrow pre-power workout. But otherwise...i ate about 90% of what i should have including the perfect friday evening beginning to the CL. Next time ill set an alarm every 2 hours and force eat the goddamn stuff.

Augs

Augury
06-13-2004, 08:03 PM
Sunday, 13th June

Power Workout Day 6.
Cals at maintenance +10%. Carbs at 5g/kg

Total Cals: 2237(97 over. yay. makes up for yesterday a bit)
Carb: 238g (32 under. )
Protein: 115g (25 under - i suspect i blew it on fat here...)
Fat: 95g (40 over. I knew it. ****)

Well...the diet was a bit shakey today for one reason only. My girlfriend and I had some problems...we both care very much for one another but some external forces are trying to split us up. It was upsetting and 8 cubes of chocolate were consumed in anger...hence the high fat. I seem to constantly undereat on the carbs. I just cant seem to get it all in me. Its not hard....i literally havent been hungry today at all...i guess gaining mass is going to be harder than i thought. I could eat **** all day long...and gain a bunch of fat....but im trying to gain clean muscle and its less easy.

Power Workout:
A1 - Hack Squats: 2x5x116
A2 - Calf Raise: 2x5x330
B1 - Flat Bench: 2x5x94
B2 - Machine Row: 2x5x88
C1 - Incline Dumbell Bench Press: 2x5x40
C2 - Lat Pulldown: 2x5x154
D - Leg Press 1x5x286
E1 - Dumbell Shoulder Press: 2x5x36
E2 - Real Delt Flys: 2x5x11
F1 - Hammer Curls: 2x5x31
F2 - Skullcrushers: 2x5x50
G1 - Close Grip Bench: 1x5x61

Pleased. Almost all weights are up over last weeks UD2:Fatloss Power workout numbers. Limiting factors were twofold. Firstly I have a shoulder injury that i cant figure out...its in my AC joint. Latpulldowns aggrivate it...so do rows. But i still did them. The other limiting factor is weight plates. My gym is one of those "crappy" gyms...packed full of cardio equipment and little in the realms of freeweights. I squatted every plate in the gym today. Ive been asking them to order more weights for 2 months. Im not a big guy...and they didnt believe i was squatting all the plates. A month ago i finally got the manager to watch me on my leg day and she looked a little annoyed when she said "can you actually do more than one rep?" and i did 3 sets of 5. I try to prefatigue the quads a little with some warmup extensions. Im just waiting for new plates to come in.

I decided to weight myself every sunday post power workout, post workout shake, when im most carbloaded....but before i eat a meal. That way i should always have the same "variables" in me.
Also will weigh myself every friday, pre tension workout when i am most depleted. Will also take BF% readings on these days too just for ****s. I have the calipers...but havent settled on equations to use yet, plus i need to teach my mate how to 7 site test me.

Todays weight was 62 kg. A classic. Ive been "bulking" for 6 days and managed to lose a kilo. Well done Augury...you win the most useless bulking competition. So....im upping calories next week. I have been depleting at maintenance -15% and repleting at maintenance +10%. Im going to shoot for depletion at -13% and repletion at +15% and see if i cant get a pound on. I have hardly doen any cardio either. The cheek of it!

Augs

TheGimp
06-14-2004, 02:48 AM
Hey Augs.

Sounds like you're still having a few teething problems. Stick at it :)

I'm guessing that's a typo in your last post and you were only 25g down on protein?

Are your workout weights lbs or kg?

Augury
06-14-2004, 10:24 AM
Heya gimps. yeah...that was a typo...was meant to be 25g.= of prot under.
As for the other question...those weights are in lbs. Im pretty certain you are going to laugh though.

Im not a huge person. People think that becasue i know a lot of anatomy and physiology and can apply it to advice regarding weight training and stuff that i must also have a godlike body.

The reality is that ive finally decided to GET a godlike body after knowing all this stuff for far too long and not doing anything about it. So im working up. I wish i could tell you those weights were in kilos lol!

I would squat a LOT more but the gym dosnt have any more weight plates as I said in the post. When they get more ill squat more. They dont even have a smithy rack :( So im limited to hacks.

Over the last 4 years I trained 3 years ago for 8 weeks (i lost bodyfat and gained a little muscle) and then since i did nothing. I started training seriously once on 7th of Feb.

It took me a month from there to figure out what i could and couldnt lift and settle on a routine (which was WWB1) and then I "bulked". I bulked very badly due to not applying what i know (and know now). Then I started UD2 for a good solid week (dont laugh) and now im bulking again (on UD2:MG) due to everyone telling me to get some fuc****ing muscle on me before i go trying to get to 7% BF. Amongst that lot i sustained a 3 week back injury too....so if you add it all up...ive trained properly for 19 weeks minus three weeks off for my lower back. 16 weeks. Ta da.

I have gained muscle mass...perhaps about 8lbs of it over this 18 weeks of fumbling, learning and generally getting back into the groove. I also lost about 6lbs of BF over the same period. My friends are amazed at the "change" in shape of my physique (legs and shoulders have seriously grown muscular - and my bis arent bad either) but the scales really only show a 2lb gain in mass. Basically im still at that stage when anything i do sheds fat and builds muscle. Sadly im obviously not eating enough on UD2 Mass gain and so I will be increasing calories for the next cycle. I WILL gain weight. Oh yes. My strength has increased massively since i started training. Some of the exercises ove trippled my max (calves started maxing at 70kilos and now are 170 kilos for a 1rep max) and others ive doubled (squats, bis, chest etc). Im pleased with my progress, its all been positive and encouraging. However Im by no means "big" or "strong" compared to others on this board. In a year perhaps ill have something to say about that....right now I know im small still. I get a lot of good ideas and advice from the people here...and i return the kindness by sharing anatomical, physiological and injury advice as best as I can.

Augs

Augs.

TheGimp
06-14-2004, 02:03 PM
Hey man we all need to start somewhere :)

I'm not going to laugh at your weights, some of them are pretty close to mine! :) The strength will come with the muscle.

Augury
06-15-2004, 06:09 AM
Monday, 14th June

Day 7 - Cals at maintenance +10%. Carbs at 4g/kg

Total Cals: 2010 (130 under. Not bad)
Carb: 205g (11 under. Good stuff)
Protein: 117g (23 under. I need my whey powder back again.)
Fat: 81g (2 over. happy.)

Diet got pretty much nailed today but for the protein. It is pretty easy to get the diet nailed now. Ive done a week of UD2 fatloss and a week of bulk.....7 more weeks of bulk to go. Im not struggling to get "near" to what im eating but i do seem to consistently fail to get all the protein i should. Not by much but always seem to be 10-15g under. Will be a lot easier when by buddy gets me some more whey powder. Then it will not happen again. Its just hard to think..."ill cook 1/4 of a chicken breast at 1am cos im under protein". the other side of it is that im eating at 1g/lb and I know that most scientific studies show 0.8g/lb is all an athlete needs. So im doing fine if im under now and then. Im close on the calorie targets tho so alls not black.

Changes to make

So what now? Done a week of UD2:MG and lost a kilo. Whilst some may see that as a failure I actually dont. Im virtually positive that im losing fat and gaining muscle. however only now do I have the tools to prove it. My BF calipers arrived on saturday and ive done a bit of research and decided what im going to do from here on out. I dont have scales at home - need to use the ones at the gym.

Weigh Days: Friday afternoon pre tension workout (end of depletion)
Sunday afternoon, pre-power workout (end of carbload)

BF measurements: Thursday night (almost end of depletion on a rest day)
Sunday morning (end of carbload just after a rest day)

Regarding BF. Im going to be doing two things. Im going to use a 7 site test and get my mate to do it. This will give me a BF%. I know the absolute figure isnt super relevant and has error in it...but it will give me a single number to watch as it changes. It SHOULD be going up slowly but my LBM should be going up faster. Im also going to record in a spreadsheet all the 7 site mm numbers. They are more important. Ill be able to build up a picture of what happens to areas of my body as i am bulking (and then later on cutting). see where fat is added and where it comes away from and how fast. This info is far more interesting and useful than 13.5% which when you think about it is giving you a piece of information as usefull as "you are average looking". Do you have good eyes? a nice smile? who knows. you are "average". Still...its an indication of progress relative to the last measurement.

Lastly...Im increasing calories so ill be posting new diet maths later today. Ive done some thinking and taking into account whay Lyle said in response to some questions i asked over on the forums at bodyrecom...

Im keeping the front end of the week the same. Eating at maintenance -15%. I want the deficit there to mop up fat storage and to encourage glycogen depletion to happen.
However at the end of the week im chaning things. Im going to go up to maintenance +15% on the post carbload days (sun and mon).
Lastly, im changing my maintenance. Im becoming aware that i may have a faster met rate than I thought and so im going to use a different figure for maintenance. Im currently working on the "slow" met rate band of 14cal/lb. Im going to up things to 15cal/lb and see how things go. So my old maintenance level for this week was 139x14 = 1946. At 15 per lb its going up to 2046. This is slightly lower than it should be becasue i also lost 2.5lbs of weight! So that had to figure into the calc.

Enough blathering. I need to revise. Diet math posting later today.
Augs.

Vido
06-15-2004, 10:28 PM
Well, the good thing about eating too little on the mass gain version is that the gap between it and the fat loss version just becomes more narrow. In other words, you probably lost fat, not muscle. Obviously that is not the goal on a bulk, but it's a not a bad side effect either.

Anyway, I was just reading over what Lyle had to say about the mass gain version in his book and I noticed his depletion workouts were split into a push and a pull/legs day. I know he is only suggesting this and there are many parts of the diet/training not set in stone, but I was wondering if there was any reason you chose to ignore that recommendation?

Scott S
06-15-2004, 10:50 PM
Damn this is a verbose journal! Good read though, and it warms my heart to see someone documenting UD2.0 Mass Gain! :thumbup:

Augury
06-16-2004, 06:16 AM
Yah...its less of a journal and more of a journey. Im a verbose person and tend to get quite sidetracked with thoughts that are nothing to do with dieting. I also am happy to treat it as a mini-UD2 forum as pretty much its all good.

Regarding the question from Vido: yup...thats a valid question and my answer to it is I suppose not grounded in any scientific reasoning. Effectively depletion exercises are 6 sets of 15 reps on pretty much every bodypart. It takes a long time. We are supposed to nail 12 sets on each bodypart across the two days (ive seen enough people who tried to do it all in one day and totally fail to learn from that mistake).

So it ended up when i had the run through of the weeks fatloss and then last weeks run through of massgain i was more concerened about "doing" the right thing in the workout than how it was split.

So i ended up (for the sake of simplicity) basing my tension/depletion (Depten from now on) workouts on the same principal as the depletion proper workouts. Lyle reccomends 6-8 sets, heavier weight (more like the full tension workouts) and lower reps (i chose 11 reps to start but this week moved to 12 for a more "depleted feel". So I just reduced my depletion workout like this:

bench press monday: 3 sets of 15. Repeat on second loop through
bench press tuesday: 3 sets of 15. repeat on 2nd loop through

TO..

bench press monday: 2 sets of 12. Repeat on second loop through
bench press tuesday: 2 sets of 12. repeat on 2nd loop through

I wanted to maintain that depletion feel of doing the same workout two days in a row...knowing i nailed the muscle groups and got them depleted. Doing 8 sets of 12 on my chest on monday would KILL me and also not achieve depletion becasue i would have stopped movng the bar b the 5th set. I would rather split it in half across two days and be able to keep the weight heavier.

For my Depten workouts im now (due to natural increases) lifting the same weights on depten that i lifted on full tension on the UD2:FL Tension workouts at only 9 reps x 3 sets. So im basically getting stronger is the upshot. Noticably.

All that siad...i may end up on a split. Convince me!?

I have still yet to post the amended diet maths for this week. Im revising hard though and dont have the time right now. Prolly in 2 or 3 hours when i feel like ive done enough work on the Gastro-Intestinal tract :(

Augs

Vido
06-16-2004, 10:29 AM
What is the rest time between sets on these "depletion-tension" workouts? Is it the same as the cut version's depletion workout or tension workout or something in between? The reason I ask is that I never really thought about it until reading your response, but it's true that doing 8 sets of high-rep chest exercises with minimal rest between sets would result in a pathetic amount of weight being lifted in the later sets. We also must remember that although these "depletion-tension" workouts are supposed to instill more of an anabolic response than the regular depletion workouts, the main goal is still depletion...the weight being lifted does not particularly matter.

I have to get going and that didn't really solve anything, just a couple more things to think about.

Augury
06-16-2004, 04:09 PM
No Vido, really it did solve it. You nailed it on the head and it is the reason i havent gone for a push pull split. Depletion is the key to the first two workouts - with a more anabilic response. So that means slightloy fewer sets 12 down to 8. Slightly fewer reps 15 down to 12 and slightly heavier weight: i estimate im up about 10% on the weight from UD2:FL depletion exercises.

i rest only for one minute but i do make sure i do a warmup set at half weight for the big muscle groups like legs and chest becasue the weights arent "thorwaway" anymore.

I get a burn just like in depletion but its not so painful...not that kind of "fuuuuk" burn....just a burn and a heavy sweat cos im pumping harder and having to use more effort. I rekon that i could perhaps bang out a 13th rep...MAYBEE a 14th with a gun to my head. but generally 12 is enough! i raise the weight if i feel i can do 14.

Augs

Augury
06-16-2004, 06:57 PM
New Diet Math for Week 2

Changes:
1) Upping to maint +15% on the post carbload days (sun and mon).
2) Maintenance recalculation: Im aware that i may have a faster met rate than I thought. Im going to up things to 15cal/lb. Was 139x14=1946. At 15 per lb its going up to 137x14=2046.

Im doing the "day forward shifted" UD2:MG so my cycle starts on tuesday.

Depletion Diet Days [maintenance -15%]
Tue: Depletion oriented tension workout (see w/o post).
Wed: Depletion oriented tension workout (see w/o post).
Thur: Recovery. 40-60 min Bike ride in the forest for cardio.
Total Cals: 1739
Carb: 100g
Protein: 140g
Fat: 86g
Meals at: 9am, 1pm, 5pm, 9pm, bedtime shake.

Friday [maintenance -15%] for AM followed by Carbload (75%)
Friday Morn/Afternoon: 40-60 min bikeride for cardio
Total Cals: 1304
Carb: 75g
Protien: 105g
Fat: 65g
Meals at: 9am, 1pm, 5pm.

Friday Evening: Tension Workout (see w/o post)
CarbLoad Goal at 16g/kgLBM = 864g over 30 hrs
CL meal 1: post w/or shake. C: 100g (gluc+ fruc), P: 30g whey
CL meal 2: 9pm. C: 100g
CL meal 3: bedshake. C: 50g, P:15g whey, 1/4 cup CottCheese for Caesin
Total Carbs for eve: 250g.
Need to also make up: 35g of prot. Fat will be from tag along CL.
Evening Cals: 1446
Evening Carbs: 250g
Evening Prot: 35g
Evening Fat: 34g

Total for Friday:
Cals: 2750
Carbs: 325g
Prot: 140g
Fat: 100g

Saturday: Rest + CarbLoad Day [864-250=614g carbs left to eat]
Total Cals: 3758
Carb: 615g
Protien: 140g
Fat: 82g (tag along from carbs - will try to reduce with less fatty carbs)
Meals at: 9am(120g), 10:30am(120g), 12pm(100g), 3pm(100g)
6pm(80g), 9pm(70g), bedtime shake(25g).

Sunday: Power Workout [maintenance + 15%]
Total Cals: 2352
Carbs set at 5g/kg of LBM = 54 x 5 = 270g
protien: 140g
Fat: 79g
Meals: 9am, 1pm, 5pm, 9pm
Pre w/o shake at 11:30am. carbs 30g, protien 15g (whey)
Power W/o at 12pm.

Monday: Rest day [maintenance +15%]
Cardio in evening
Total Cals: 2352
Total Carbs: 4g/kg LBM of carbs = 216g
Total Prot: 140g
Total Fat: 103g

Grad Totals for Week:
Cals: 16,429 = 2347 per day = maintenance + 15% overall

benny
06-16-2004, 07:03 PM
Good luck with all this, I get confused just reading it, but I don't have a very long attention span and I was a pothead for some time. I loved your story about drinking a stimulant powder, it reminded me of the time I tried metabolife or whatever that crazy diet pill was a few years ago.

Augury
06-16-2004, 07:11 PM
Tuesday, 15th June

Day 1, Week 2 - Cals at maintenance -15%. 100g Carbs

Total Cals: 1626 (113 under. Ill live)
Carb: 98g (Bingo)
Protein: 128g (12 under. not bad)
Fat: 83g (3 under. Fine.)

Depletion/Tension Workout:
m/c Leg Press : 4x12x220 (up 1 rep per set)
m/c Leg Curl : 4x12x77 (up 1 rep per set)
f/w Incline Bench : 4x12x72 (up 1 rep per set + 12lbs)
m/c Lat Pulldown : 4x12x88 (up 1 rep per set)
f/w Lateral Raise : 2x12x14 (up 1 rep per set)
m/c Calf Raise : 4x12x198 (up 1 rep per set)
f/w Skulls: 4x12x38.5 (up 1 rep per set)
f/w Hammer Curls: 2x12x22 (up 1 rep per set)

Felt stronger than this time last week. I know its supposed to be depletion with an anabolic response bup upping my calories is making me feel stronger. All my sets i put an extra rep into and ill be keeping it that way to keep the depletion feel. 11 wasnt enough. Diet was good. Happy Augs.

Augs

Augury
06-16-2004, 07:30 PM
Wednesday, 16th June

Day 2, Week 2 - Cals at maintenance -15%. 100g Carbs

Total Cals: 1758 (19 over. im on a bulk mmkkay?)
Carb: 103g (Fine)
Protein: 122g (18 under. STOP swappig prot for fat)
Fat: 99g (13 over. Annoying)

I SO need another tub of whey powder. its so hard to get all the prot you need from food alone withiut spending your life cooking.

Depletion/Tension Workout:
m/c Leg Press : 4x12x220 (up 22 lbs)
m/c Leg Curl : 4x12x77 (up 11lbs)
f/w Flat Bench : 4x12x71.5 (no change)
m/c Row : 4x12x44 (no change)
f/w Lateral Raise : 2x12x13.2 (up 2.2 lbs)
m/c Calf Raise : 4x12x220 (up 44 lbs)
f/w Skulls: 2x12x28.5 (up 11 lbs)
f/w Hammer Curls: 2x12x22 (up 4lbs)

So im pretty happy here too. Strength is obviously going up even though weight dosnt really matter here as its depletion. however indicators are that ill be raising weights in Tension and Power later in the week.

VERY annoyingly I have exams on Saturday and Sunday which is going to screw with my carbload and screw with my power workout, but ill do the best i can. I will get back hopefully in time to train early eve on Sun (prolly 6-7pm).

Oh, one last thing. This is effectively the halfway mark of my 3rd UD2 week now (even though first week was UD fatloss). Im getting used to the lowcarb days. In actual fact....i feel pretty aloert on them now. Im not always hungry and im not always dreaming of carbs. Whats more im actually beginning to worry about fat intake. Im having to eat a ****load of fat (olive oil) in order to get my cals to the totals. Carbs and protein are basically fixed so its the only thing i can manipulate. Im worrying that ill just put weight on as fat. I guess i need to trust Lyle here. Still...right now my problem is gaining weight AT ALL. I suspect that ill be raising calores more in week 3 of the bulk.

Augs

Augury
06-16-2004, 07:32 PM
cheers benny. I appreciate it. I know it all looks complicated. basically it goes like this:

i dont feel like im doing anything right unless im totally in control. Im anally retentive. I also like the challenge of complex rules and formulas and stuff becasue im a freak.

However, all that said...I know whats going on with this diet. I have info and thats power. Eventually things will start to happen. They have to. Its fundamental physiology of energy in minus energy out.

Augs

Vido
06-16-2004, 07:33 PM
According to the book, Thursday you would eat at maintenance level, not -15%...I just thought I would point this out in case you overlooked it.

Augury
06-16-2004, 09:06 PM
Funny you should say that. Were you looking at the table on p73 by any chance? I was too....and so i posted this over at body recomp yesterday:

AUGS: ok. thanks for the thoughts on veg.

However I wonder if anyone (Lyle?) has an answer for the other question? It has left me puzzled as to how the massgain variant actially works:

On wed and thurs its suggested in the book to eat at maintenance. No mention is made of carb levels. Mon and tue were specified at 100g per day. If this is the case wont eating at maintenance with no carb limit imposed simply mean i replenish all the glycogen i just spent monday and tuesday depleting? The carbload isnt till thursday night...if ive eaten at maintenance for two days befor the carbload is it going to have the effect required?
Augs

Chupacabra:
Keep carbs around 100g/day Weds. and Thurs.

lylemcd:
"The first would be both an increase in calories (to maintenance or maybe 10% below) AND carbohydrates (to 100 grams/day) on the low-carbohydrate days."
Low carb days = Mon-Thu.
Lyle


That help Vido? The table on p73 seems to have mistakes on days 3 and 4. The text on page 72 spells it out pretty plainly. I let lyle know that the table says something different to the text.

Augs

Manveet
06-16-2004, 10:34 PM
What is the rest time between sets on these "depletion-tension" workouts? Is it the same as the cut version's depletion workout or tension workout or something in between? The reason I ask is that I never really thought about it until reading your response, but it's true that doing 8 sets of high-rep chest exercises with minimal rest between sets would result in a pathetic amount of weight being lifted in the later sets. We also must remember that although these "depletion-tension" workouts are supposed to instill more of an anabolic response than the regular depletion workouts, the main goal is still depletion...the weight being lifted does not particularly matter.

I have to get going and that didn't really solve anything, just a couple more things to think about.


I notice as my depletion training goes on, my rest intervals increase (mainly because I'm not a big fan of puking in the gym). I think rest intervals are not huge deal, you're not gonna deplete any more glycogen the faster you go.

Vido
06-17-2004, 12:18 AM
I notice as my depletion training goes on, my rest intervals increase (mainly because I'm not a big fan of puking in the gym). I think rest intervals are not huge deal, you're not gonna deplete any more glycogen the faster you go.

If you read the part of the book on "pump training" (which is what the depletion workouts are) Lyle makes it fairly apparent that the short rest periods are important. I wouldn't necessarily say he stresses them, but he certainly makes a good case for keeping rest periods to a minimum.

Are you supersetting the exercises Manveet? This makes it a lot easier to take shorter breaks because one muscle can rest while another gets worked.

Vido
06-17-2004, 12:21 AM
That help Vido? The table on p73 seems to have mistakes on days 3 and 4. The text on page 72 spells it out pretty plainly. I let lyle know that the table says something different to the text.

Augs

Yes, that helps quite a bit. That table didn't seem quite right, and now I know why...it wasn't.

Augury
06-17-2004, 06:07 AM
i think the rest periods are important, but you have to remember what that feeling is you are resting from. Its glycogen depletion. Your body is running out of it...liver glycogen is crashing, muscle glycogen is crashing and there is no blood glycogen to replace it with...you are getting lactic acid buildup too. Your body is just saying "haaaannnggg onn...stop wilya??"

Some of these mechanisms move faster than others. If you wait a day between sets then you will convert fat to glycogen eventually. If you wait 1 min it hasnt got a chance and you will deplete. However lactic acid buildup bloody hurts and if you dont ease up when its getting bad your muscles will just stop to protect themselves anyhow. puking is counterproductive so whats an extra 30s?

All that said...i stick to 1min religously. If im finding it impossible to do the depletion exercises as suggested (3 sets of everything and then repeat for another 3 sets) then I would lower the weight slightly on the sets causing you the nausea. You will still be depleted just fine.

Augs.

Augury
06-17-2004, 06:09 AM
vido did you see my reply regarding the split/not split routine for depletion-tension workouts? you didnt respond to it and i thought you might have. but its back on page 2 so didnt know if you missed it. I was curious as to your opinion.

Augs

Vido
06-17-2004, 10:27 AM
Forgive me if I'm missing something, but the gist of your reason is that you feel the full body workouts do a better job of depleting glycogen (based primarily on recovery ability between sets), which is the goal of these two days? And the "more anabolic response" that Lyle talks about is achieved through lowering the # of reps to 12 (Lyle recommends 12-15) and thus, lifting slightly heavier weights? That's what I got out of your post and it makes perfect sense to me.

aka23
06-17-2004, 11:55 AM
I notice as my depletion training goes on, my rest intervals increase (mainly because I'm not a big fan of puking in the gym). I think rest intervals are not huge deal, you're not gonna deplete any more glycogen the faster you go.

I suspect that Lyle recommends keeping the rest intervals short, so blood lactate can accumulate (the body clears out blood lactate during rest intervals) and various hormonal responses are maximized. Growth hormone is closely correlated with blood lactate levels and tends to be highest with sets of about 1 min and short rest periods. The name of the hormone is misleading since it has little effect on muscle growth, but it does have effects on fat loss and body composition. Reference -- http://bjsm.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/37/2/100
. The shorter rest periods also increases the anaerobic response and assists with glycogen depletion at lower intensities. However, I would expect glycogen depletion to occur with longer rest periods as well, so long as intensity was high enough (and length of sets was not reduced). Unfortunately the lactate acumulation and reduced blood pH also causes nausea.

Augury
06-17-2004, 11:58 AM
Whew. I was just wanting a sanity check that was all. Im in a bit of strung out shape right now...im revising for anatomy and physiology exams and at the same time on a reasonably low carb diet (fuzzyhead) and when i have a break from revising i post here. I could be posting total crap...its nice to have some folks agree so you know you arent just talking into space and making mistakes :) Cheers Vido

Augury
06-17-2004, 08:10 PM
Thursday, 17th June

Day 3, Week 2 - Cals at maintenance -15%. 100g Carbs

Total Cals: 1636 (103 under - revising. i forgot to eat)
Carb: 110g (10 over - not bad)
Protein: 122g (18 under. the usual swap of prot for fat)
Fat: 80g (6 under. erm...ok)

been revising anatomoy so heard today that my ears are actually bleeding. No, really, they are. No really.

Still, currently i know more about the human body than i ever have in my life and that cheers me up. By no means do i know everything or even close to it, but i am at a personal peak and intend only to deepen the knowledge. I have to work at anatomy (dull lusts of interconnecting objects) but i love physiology...its chemistry with food! and stuff. heh.

As you can see....i dont have a lot to say about the diet. i need to do bodyfat tests tomorrow along with a weigh in. *mutters about no time*

Augs

Jezmason
06-17-2004, 08:30 PM
dude, u have this down perfectly, could u take a look at the 'my UD 2.0' thread in the nutrition forum and see if it all looks ok, bearing in mind im cutting.

Manveet
06-17-2004, 10:35 PM
If you read the part of the book on "pump training" (which is what the depletion workouts are) Lyle makes it fairly apparent that the short rest periods are important. I wouldn't necessarily say he stresses them, but he certainly makes a good case for keeping rest periods to a minimum.

Are you supersetting the exercises Manveet? This makes it a lot easier to take shorter breaks because one muscle can rest while another gets worked.


I superset, but by mid-way I start to hit a wall (nausea starts kicking in) by the last quater of the workout I hit a complete wall, and rest intervals go up.

How long does it take you guys to complete a depeltion workout? For me it has to be about 1 hr and 30 min. Mainly becuase of the last quarter of the workout, which seems to take me forever to finish.

Vido
06-18-2004, 12:12 AM
I superset, but by mid-way I start to hit a wall (nausea starts kicking in) by the last quater of the workout I hit a complete wall, and rest intervals go up.

How long does it take you guys to complete a depeltion workout? For me it has to be about 1 hr and 30 min. Mainly becuase of the last quarter of the workout, which seems to take me forever to finish.

:eek: lol, it takes me about an hour, give or take, and that's WITH a 5 minute bike ride to warm up my legs in between upper and lower body. (I do all upper and then all lower body after).

TheGimp
06-18-2004, 03:02 AM
Takes me no more than an hour. I do a lot of supersetting, generally out of boredom. (6 sets of squats in a row is quite tedious :D)

Manveet
06-18-2004, 09:02 AM
:eek: lol, it takes me about an hour, give or take, and that's WITH a 5 minute bike ride to warm up my legs in between upper and lower body. (I do all upper and then all lower body after).


Either you have a stomach made of steel, or I'm a complete pussy. Are you using extremely light weights though? I use my 15RM and then take off about 30lbs for the bigger excerices, and 15lbs for the smaller. Basically it's like doing the 3rd HST workout for the 15's every depletion day (although with a lot more sets)

Vido
06-18-2004, 10:29 AM
Either you have a stomach made of steel, or I'm a complete pussy. Are you using extremely light weights though? I use my 15RM and then take off about 30lbs for the bigger excerices, and 15lbs for the smaller. Basically it's like doing the 3rd HST workout for the 15's every depletion day (although with a lot more sets)

My stomach never feels bad during these workouts. I got headaches for the first couple of depletion workouts, but haven't had one since. I definitely wouldn't call the weights I'm using "heavy", but I'm basically failing (or coming close to it) on the last rep of each set.

I think you're just a pussy :D.

Augury
06-18-2004, 10:45 AM
lol. you guys are so kind to one another.

I do one minutes rest. I sweat like a pig. I dont superset the depletion exercises because im normally too busy breathing VERY hard to get out the seat/off bench to go to superset something else. I close my eyes and my alarm goes off 60 seconds (feels like 5 seconds) later to tell me to do another set. I hate my alarm.

However im not doing ud2 fatloss....so im on 2x as many carbs (100g) and im eating more calories than you guys (prolly 1.5 x the cals on the depletion days). so i dont get that light headed nauseous feeling half as bad. im just exhausted. i do 12 reps (becasue its supposed to have an anabolic feel for massgain variant) and my weights are set high enough so that a 13th rep is possible if someone said "its slugs for dinner if you dont do one more rep" If you see what i mean. Sometimes on the biceps and lateral raises i fail at the 11 mark.

God that was a strange metaphor. Im obviously fed up revising and dreaming of the wrong things.

Scott S
06-18-2004, 10:33 PM
its so hard to get all the prot you need from food alone withiut spending your life cooking.

Bah. If the good Lord had intended us to cook, He wouldn't have provided us with canned tuna.*



*protein: 30g, carbs: 0g, fat: 1g

Augury
06-19-2004, 10:25 AM
are you an angel?





I eat tuna from the can. Normally I open it first though. however...i get sick of it really quickly. if i eat 5 tins in a week my body rebels and the mere thought of more is revolting. i end up havig to cover it in so much other stuff that i cant taste it...and then i mayaswell be eating slug. theres protein in slug. apparently.

oh and mucus. I imagine eating slug would be like eating a warm sac...filled with snot. I feel ill now. I hate my mind.

Scott S
06-19-2004, 12:19 PM
One of my ex-girlfriends seriously thought I was. She was kinda.... I dunno.

In addition to the varieties of tuna (I'll get the plain, vegetable oil, olive oil, low-sodium, white albacore to shake things up), you can always put FF ranch dressing and other stuff on it.


And admit it, you secretly savor the taste when you snark down a big glob of snot in the wintertime. ;)

Augury
06-19-2004, 12:43 PM
One of my ex-girlfriends seriously thought I was. She was kinda.... I dunno.

Did her opinion of your angelity (thats not a word. i so know it) change mysteriously after hearing you say things like this??:


And admit it, you secretly savor the taste when you snark down a big glob of snot in the wintertime. ;)

I think snarking down big gobs of snot at secretly enjoying it (along with picking your nose, looking for the pools of blood as you pass an RTA, wondering just how it would feel to push your manager backwards out of the 60th storey window etc etc) are those kinds of dark secrets that noone talks about.

Cept us.

Obviously we are odd. Ok. its just me.
And no...i dont rubberneck. infact its one of my pet hates. It must be embarrasing enough as it is, to have had a car crash on a motorway, be sitting on the verge in a daze and thinking about just how much this is all going to cost without also having the added guilt of realising you have casued a 10 mile tailback simply because people want to see if you are maimed or not. I HATE that. The rubbernecking that is. Ive never ever ever met anyone who says that they rubberneck....but lo and behold....theres a minor shunt on the motorway and every goddamn car infront of me slows right down to take a good look and then speeds up again. Yet noone does it.
Apparently.

Another thing for me to rant about.

Scott S
06-19-2004, 01:23 PM
Indeed. I'll admit that I may glance at a wreck, but I'm still trying to get through as fast as I can.

donraja
06-19-2004, 11:24 PM
I guess they (okay, sometimes me) think, "well i've been in this damn line for so long i might as well take a look". lol

However, if i were the only car driving by i doubt i'd bother to slow down to watch.

TheGimp
06-22-2004, 02:51 AM
Hey Augs.

How are things progressing?

Augury
06-22-2004, 08:17 AM
Oh man....exams wreck diets.

Everything was fine until about halfway through saturday. Thats my carbload day. i had exams from 9am - 6pm saturday and sunday. Sat was supposed to be a carbload with it was about 85% sucessfull. Sunday was supposed to be power workout and eating at 15% over maintenance and I basically didnt have time to eat more thn 4 pieces of toast the whole day. Then we all went down the pub and got drunk. Then i slept 14 hours straight and felt ill all day monday. and didnt eat properly then either.

i feel human today and am "re-comitting" myself to the diet. no more exams for 6 months and I have the summer holidays now (no im not 18 im 32 just so you know - mature student taking my third degree). My flatmate also has decided to join me on UD2 bulk which really helps with eating cos hes always sitting infornt of me eating stuff i cant have and taunting me with it which seriously dosnt help.

Anyhow...ill be posting for my "missing" days in the next few hours and seeing what the damage was. I know that Im still losing weight tho and need to increase calories more...im going to be literally drinking olive oil from the bottle on low carb days to keep up the calories goddamn it.

Augs

Augury
06-22-2004, 07:07 PM
Friday, 18th June

Depletion Day 4.
Cals at Maintenance - 15% first 3 meals.
Tension Workout
Begin Carbload

Total Cals: 2396 (354 under. cos i kept the fat under control)
Carb: 324g (1 under - PERFECT)
Protein: 123g (17 under. Its always the protein)
Fat: 73g (27 under. This is actually a good thing on carbload.)

Tension Workout
A1 - Leg Press: 2x9x264 (+22 lbs)
A2 - Leg Curl: 2x9x99 (+11 lbs)
F - Calf Raises: 3x9x242 (+22 lbs)
B1 - Bench Press: 2x9x83 (+11.5 lbs)
C1 - Incline Dumbell Press: 2x9x36 (no change)
B2 - Machine Row: 2x9x66 (+11 lbs)
C2 - Lat Pulldown: 2x9x110 (+20 lbs)
E1 - Military Press: 2x9x60.5 (no change)
E2 - Lateral Raise: 2x9x15.5 (no change)
D1 - Hammer Curl: 2x9x27 (no change)
D2 - Skullcrushers: 2x9x50 (+11.5 lbs)

Ok, so friday wasnt so bad. The workout rocked, I added strength to just about everything except shoulder oriented stuff. My shoulders are crappy. They actually are quite big on my body...but seem to fail early. Im pretty happy with the gains im making.

Augs

Augury
06-22-2004, 07:15 PM
Saturday, 19th June

Carbload Day 5.
Cals at silly levels due to eating 16g/kg of carbs.
Rest - Carbload

Total Cals: 3052 (700 under....reasons to follow)
Carb: 426g (189 under - reasons to follow.)
Protein: 145g (5 over - fine)
Fat: 93g (11 over - not good at all)

The beginning of my exams. At 9am I was in a 2.5 hour anatomy exam and an hour after that finished i was in another 2.5 hour exam. Bearing in mind i was under intense pressure and didnt have the ability to eat properly and had an hour and a halfs train ride back home...I did pretty good on this carbup. What I didnt know was that it was going to be totally wasted tomorrow.

Augs

Augury
06-22-2004, 07:23 PM
Sunday, 20th June

Power Workout Day 6.
Cals at maintenance +10%. Carbs at 5g/kg



Total Cals: 483 (1900 under)
Carb: 81g (190 under)
Protein: 14g (126 under)
Fat: 12g (67 under)

So...what happened here? Let me explain. This is worth a laugh. SO as you can see I ate about, what, 1/20th of what I was supposed to. Why? Well i ate breakfast. Then had more exams. Then my exams finished and I went to the pub with my mates. Then we all got totally drunk. I got back feeling so fecking ill that i went straight to bed.

Workout? I sure did. I was lifting my arm all evening with a pint in my hand. I got a good biceps pump.

Net result? Diet for today totally ****ed. Workout for today totally ****ed. Im annoyed with myself. I need to get this back on track. The funniest crap is tomorrow though.

Augs

Augury
06-22-2004, 07:34 PM
Monday, 21st June

Day 7 - Cals at maintenance +10%. Carbs at 4g/kg

Total Cals: No idea
Carb: Not a clue
Protein: I wish
Fat: Probably.

So? what happened today? Thats right girls...I woke up with a hangover that was one of those ones that makes you actually wince to move your neck. I had a headache so bad, that I actually thought blood was coming out of my ears. It wasnt of course. But thats how it felt. I ate nothing for half the day. Just drank water and tried not to hurl.

Later on I now i ate some food....no idea what tho. Enough to get me to the evening and back to bed.

One thing i did do was get weighed. Guess what? This is the end of week 2 of my BULK. I lost a kilo last week. I lost another kilo this week. Im on a bulk and im LOSING weight. I think I can explain though. Im not actually eating the calories i am supposed to be. Its bloody difficuly. Life gets in the way. Also...depletion days are so hard...all you can eat is fat and protein. Its foul. I feel sick most of the time...just the thought of olive oil makes me want to heave now. All this fat cannot be good for me.

Still, i want to gain weight. So im upping the calories for week 3 and im damnwell going to eat as many of them as I can. My flatmate is joining me on UD2 bulk...but I honestly expect him to give up after 3 days. As soon as he gets hungry he just eats **** and gives up. Still Ill keep going even if he dosnt. Its his body...up to him to deal with the consequences of eating **** your whole life.

So...I basically screwed up sunday and monday and didnt do the power workout. Apart from that...it was good. Ill recover. Ill win. If nothing else my body is physically responding. Im gaining strength and losing weight. If it gets fed it will grow. It wants to.

Augs.

Augury
06-22-2004, 07:37 PM
Just worked on the new diet math for week 3. Its on the next post. Im really bloody determined to do a perfect week this week. No ****ups. I might not hit every target....but im doing all the workouts and im going to eat at least 90% of what im supposed to. I WILL gain weight.

Augs

Augury
06-22-2004, 07:38 PM
New Diet Math for Week 3

Changes:
1) Upping to maint +20% on the post carbload days (sun and mon).
2) Maintenance recalculation: Im aware that i may have a EVEN faster met rate than I thought. Still not putting on weight. Im going to up things to 17cal/lb. Was 137x14=2046. At 17 per lb its going up to 137x17=2329.

Im doing the "day forward shifted" UD2:MG so my cycle starts on tuesday.

Depletion Diet Days [maintenance -15%]
Tue: Depletion oriented tension workout (see w/o post).
Wed: Depletion oriented tension workout (see w/o post).
Thur: Recovery. 40-60 min Bike ride in the forest for cardio.
Total Cals: 1980
Carb: 100g
Protein: 165g
Fat: 102g
Meals at: 9am, 1pm, 5pm, 9pm, bedtime shake.

Friday [maintenance -15%] for AM followed by Carbload (75%)
Friday Morn/Afternoon: 40-60 min bikeride for cardio
Total Cals: 1152
Carb: 75g
Protien: 123g
Fat: 40g
Meals at: 9am, 1pm, 5pm.

Friday Evening: Tension Workout (see w/o post)
CarbLoad Goal at 16g/kgLBM = 864g over 30 hrs
CL meal 1: post w/or shake. C: 100g (gluc+ fruc), P: 30g whey
CL meal 2: 9pm. C: 100g
CL meal 3: bedshake. C: 50g, P:15g whey, 1/4 cup CottCheese for Caesin
Total Carbs for eve: 250g.
Need to also make up: 35g of prot. Fat will be from tag along CL.
Evening Cals: 1474
Evening Carbs: 250g
Evening Prot: 42g
Evening Fat: 34g

Total for Friday:
Cals: 2626
Carbs: 325g
Prot: 165g
Fat: 74g

Saturday: Rest + CarbLoad Day [864-250=614g carbs left to eat]
Total Cals: 3570
Carb: 615g
Protien: 165g
Fat: 50g (tag along from carbs keep low)
Meals at: 9am(120g), 10:30am(120g), 12pm(100g), 3pm(100g)
6pm(80g), 9pm(70g), bedtime shake(25g).

Sunday: Power Workout [maintenance + 20%]
Total Cals: 2795
Carbs set at 5g/kg of LBM = 54 x 5 = 270g
protien: 165g
Fat: 117g
Meals: 9am, 1pm, 5pm, 9pm
Pre w/o shake at 11:30am. carbs 30g, protien 15g (whey)
Power W/o at 12pm.

Monday: Rest day [maintenance +20%]
Cardio in evening
Total Cals: 2795
Total Carbs: 4g/kg LBM of carbs = 216g
Total Prot: 165g
Total Fat: 141g

Grad Totals for Week:
Cals: 17,906 = 2558 per day = maintenance + 10% overall

Augury
06-22-2004, 07:49 PM
Tuesday, 15th June

Day 1, Week 3 - Cals at maintenance -15%. 100g Carbs

Total Cals: 1837 (143 under - thats fine cos its 20% higher than it was)
Carb: 126g (26 over. Hungry today. Im bulking too. Live with it)
Protein: 133g (30 under. This isnt good. I always under on prot)
Fat: 91g (11 under. close enough)

Depletion/Tension Workout:
m/c Leg Press : 4x12x220 (no change)
m/c Leg Curl : 4x12x77 (no change)
f/w Incline Bench : 4x12x72 (no change)
m/c Lat Pulldown : 4x12x110 (+22 lbs)
f/w Lateral Raise : 2x12x14 (no change)
m/c Calf Raise : 4x12x198 (+22 lbs)
f/w Skulls: 4x12x38.5 (no change)
f/w Hammer Curls: 2x12x22 (no change)

Will be raising leg curl for next week. Basically that workout was solid. Its depletion/tension so its supposed to deplete with an anabolic content. I felt both. it was exhausting, demanding and nausiating. I also did the workout in about 1 hour, because i supersetted. Gym was busy tho :(

Diet was about right for today. i need to get my fat intake earlier in the day, so i intend to get a lot in at breakfast. I need to focus on eating the protein too. Im going to be getting through meat really fast with no whey powder STILL. Im so pissed my mate hasnt got me another tub yet.

Augs

Vido
06-22-2004, 08:00 PM
Also...depletion days are so hard...all you can eat is fat and protein. Its foul. I feel sick most of the time...just the thought of olive oil makes me want to heave now. All this fat cannot be good for me.


3 words: natural peanut butter...I don't see how anyone could get tired of something so delicious. Also, are you eating eggs? That would help get both your fat and protein up, which you appear to need help doing.

Vido
06-22-2004, 08:11 PM
Grad Totals for Week:
Cals: 17,906 = 2558 per day = maintenance + 10% overall

You raised calories and are still at +10%...isn't that what you were at to begin with?

Scott S
06-22-2004, 08:39 PM
I'd concentrate the extra calories on the carbload and the subsequent day. I've found Enova a lot easier to swallow than olive oil if that helps any.

Augury
06-23-2004, 06:01 PM
VIDO:

Thats a good question Vido and I thought that myself when I did the maths sanity check right at the end.

The reason is becasue I made 2 changes. The fist was where I loaded the exta calories....15% under at beginning of week and 20% over at end of week.

The main reason is becasue ive increased my maintenance calorie BASAL level to allow me to eat more throughout the week. So if you look way back, my basal calorie level was based on 14xweight now its 17xweight. Relative to the original one im prolly at something like maintenance + 50%...but becasue maintenance has been raised twice....its still hovering at 10%. Just remeber that maintenance is significantly higher now.

Natural Peanut Butter. Its real interesting you should say that. If you look at my food intakes on my fitday link you will see i do often eat peanut butter. However its not "natural". I only recently discovered the tub i have is full of hydrogenated vegtable oil. When this tub runs out im getting a giant tub of good for me natural stuff and ill be scoffing it like crazy. The only down side is that i have no carbs to eat it on!!

SCOTT:

I dont know what enova is. It may have a different name here in england. Whats it derived from? Also I remeber in UD2 lyle mentioned the benefits of cocanut oil. Anyone here eat that stuff and if so how/with what?

Augs

Augury
06-23-2004, 06:24 PM
Wednesday, 23rd June

Day 2, Week 3 - Cals at maintenance -15%. 100g Carbs

Total Cals: 2058(78 over. yay!)
Carb: 113g (13 over. Not too bad at all)
Protein: 160g (5 under. wow. most ever protein for me in a day!!!)
Fat: 108g (6 over. This is great)

Depletion/Tension Workout:
m/c Leg Press : 4x12x220 (no change)
m/c Leg Curl : 4x12x77 (no change)
f/w Flat Bench : 4x12x71.5 (no change)
m/c Row : 4x12x55 (+11 lbs)
f/w Lateral Raise : 2x12x13.2 (no change)
m/c Calf Raise : 4x12x220 (no change)
f/w Skulls: 2x12x38.5 (+10 lbs)
f/w Hammer Curls: 2x12x22 (no change)

Ok, Im feeling pretty self congratulatory. My diet was nailed to the floor today and more accurate than a swiss watch that has been made to specially comemorate just how accurate swiss watches can be.

A note about depletion exercises. On 100g of carbs these things are a LOT more tollerable. Obviously im not doing the 12 sets per bodypart...im only doing 8 cos its massgain....but i am doing a 12rep max weight and things are tough. There is a tendency to try and push things and raise up the weights. I think i need to be wary of this. The muscle building workouts are the Power and Tension later in the week. This is only supposed to deplete and add a hint of anabolism. Im really self competitive though and the chance to raise up weights just cant be passed off. Ontop of all that my strength gains are currently in a very encouraging new spurt. Im currently gaining like a newbie on pretty much everything. Relatively speaking I AM a newbie...but i have trained before and in the past and I had also been training solidly for 16 weeks before even thinking about UD2. Maybee that means I still get newbie gains when i shake things up.

Also...the last two days (first two of week 3) I really have eaten what im supposed to and i feel like im eating properly even on low carbs. Lets just hope i get some weight gain tho to show for it all.

Augs

Scott S
06-23-2004, 07:34 PM
www.enovaoil.com

It provides energy more rapidly than triglycerides and gets burned in the liver. Supposedly. There's some neat animation on the site.

EDIT: BTW, good job with your diet and training today. :)

TheGimp
06-24-2004, 02:20 AM
Congrats on getting the diet nailed down! :thumbup:

Augury
06-24-2004, 05:13 AM
Thanks guys for the encouragment. For me this is a "life" thing. Ive never tried to get "big" before and I guess these fumbling attempts will be looked back on in a few years as laughable but usefull experience. Still....i will see this through. The laws of physics tell me that if i keep shovelling food in one end and not using it all up i will gain weight. however how much of that is fat remains to be seen.

Gona go read that link now Scott. Cheers for that. Im also going to seek out all your threads and post on em! Ha....imagine me....Mr Verbose posting on your journals. Bet you wish you handnt posted on this now lol....your gona have to put up with my tirades and wandering thoughts even more.

Augs

Augury
06-24-2004, 06:34 PM
Thursday, 24th June

Week 3, Day 3 - Cals at maintenance -15%. 100g Carbs. REST.

Total Cals: 1961 (20 under. perfect)
Carb: 106g (6 over. perfect.)
Protein: 152g (13 under. very close)
Fat: 105g (2 over. perfect)

FOOD:
Meal 1:
Scrambled Egg, linconshire sausage, 25g (3 slices) thin sliced ham
Rice, Olive oil

Meal 2:
Vegtable Slop, chicken breast fried, Olive oil

Meal 3:
Vegtable slop, linconshire sausage, Olive oil

Meal 4:
tin of tuna

Meal 5:
2 x peanut butter desert spoon, Raw Oats, semi skim milk

Comments:
Oh I like this. Very good. Diet still nailed. I have recovered from the workout really well today. I put it down to the fact ive eaten all the calories Im supposed to. The 100g of carbs makes such a recovery difference compared to 50g on UD2 Fatloss. My food was consumed in more meals than normal too. I got to cuddle the evening through with my girlfriend. What more do i need?

Augs

Augury
06-25-2004, 07:36 PM
Too tired to write up Friday right now. Prolly wont be till saturday evening that i get fri and sat written up. I have more exams on sunday. booooo.

Im sick of exams.

But just so ya know....friday went really well. REALLY well. So im happy.

Augs

TheGimp
06-26-2004, 07:54 AM
Sounds like you're definitely on the right track now. Looking forward to seeing how well Friday went :)

ryuage
06-26-2004, 08:59 AM
looking forward to seeing the results of this little ud2 mass gain expirement

Scott S
06-27-2004, 02:07 AM
Gona go read that link now Scott. Cheers for that. Im also going to seek out all your threads and post on em! Ha....imagine me....Mr Verbose posting on your journals. Bet you wish you handnt posted on this now lol....your gona have to put up with my tirades and wandering thoughts even more.

Augs


Come on over anytime. It gets kinda lonely there sometimes...

Augury
06-27-2004, 01:11 PM
Had my last exam of the year today (sunday). I havent had time to post into my journal but im going to be catching up now. Ive not been having any problems with the diet/training, just a lack of time to post here.

My g/f is coming around so i wanna cuddle with her and then after shes gone home ill post. Bloody hell....im writing this to "you all" whomever you are and im actually feeling guilty i havent posted. Bad Augury. lol. still...guilt works.

3 months off from uni...tho i need to be getting my ass a job ASAP. 2 jobs more likely.

Augs

Scott S
06-27-2004, 06:08 PM
I'm doing the 2-jobs thing. It's not so bad.

Augury
06-27-2004, 07:03 PM
Friday, 25th June

Week 3, Day 4 - Depletion and Tension Workout.
Cals at Maintenance - 15% first 3 meals.
Tension Workout
Begin Carbload

2804 70 371 166

Total Cals: 2804 (178 over. Good. Im bulking)
Carb: 371g (46 over. carbload evening. fine)
Protein: 166g (thats about perfect)
Fat: 70g (4 under. even more perfect)

Tension Workout
A1 - Leg Press: 2x9x264 (no change)
A2 - Leg Curl: 2x9x99 (no change)
F - Calf Raises: 3x9x242 (no change)
B1 - Bench Press: 2x9x93.5 (+10.5 lbs)
C1 - Incline Dumbell Press: 2x9x36 (this is per hand by the way)
B2 - Machine Row: 2x9x77 (+11 lbs)
C2 - Lat Pulldown: 2x9x121 (+11 lbs)
E1 - Military Press: 2x9x60.5 (no change)
E2 - Lateral Raise: 2x9x17.6 (+2.1 per hand)
D1 - Hammer Curl: 2x9x27 (no change)
D2 - Skullcrushers: 2x9x50 (+11.5 lbs)
F1 - Leg Extension: 2x9x99 (+11 lbs)
F2 - Tricep M/C: 2x9x66 (no change)

Well, another bloody good day. On reflection this day couldnt have been better. Diet was totally nailed and workout was great. Powered through it and improved a lot of weights. Also made notes what to go higher on next week.

Augs

Augury
06-27-2004, 07:10 PM
Saturday, 26th June

Week 3, Day 5 - Carbload and Rest.
Cals at silly levels due to eating 16g/kg of carbs.
Rest - Carbload

3334 68 512 171

Total Cals: 3334 (236 under. pretty good)
Carb: 512g (103 under - this needs to be nailed better.)
Protein: 171g (6 over. perfect)
Fat: 68g (18 over. need to eat more carbs and less fat on CL day)

Another carbload on another day of Uni. Its gettig easier to CL on Uni weekends now as im a lot more organised and take a bag of oats out there with me. Really helped. I still need to eat more often during the day tho on the CL. As much as I love oats, Im getting sick of them. I need an alternative for CL. Oats carry too much fat with them. Also make me fuller than hell. (one would assume from that comment that hell is particularly filling - I honestly have no idea. I havent eaten hell before. Actually I have - aniseed. but it wasnt filling)

Anyhow...the carbload "took" just fine and i filled up glycogen wise no hassles. Goeds though....talk about gassy. I was hovering half a foot of my chair most of the day.

Augs

Augury
06-27-2004, 07:28 PM
Sunday, 27th June

Week 3, Day 6 - Power Workout
Cals at maintenance +20%. Carbs at 5g/kg

2762 101 307 162

Total Cals: 2762 (33 under. perfik)
Carb: 307g (37 over. no biggie. besides i need the recovery carbs )
Protein: 162g (3 under. also perfik)
Fat: 101g (16 under. fine as far as im concerned)

Power Workout:
A1 - Hack Squats: 3x5x116 (up one SET)
A2 - Calf Raise: 2x5x330 (no change)
B1 - Flat Bench: 2x5x94 (no change)
B2 - Machine Row: 2x5x99 (+11 lbs)
C1 - Incline Dumbell Bench Press: 2x5x40 (no change. per hand)
C2 - Lat Pulldown: 2x5x154 (no change)
D - Leg Press 1x5x308 (+22 lbs)
E1 - Dumbell Shoulder Press: 2x5x36 (no change)
E2 - Rear Delt Flys: 2x5x13.2 (+2.2 lbs)
F1 - Hammer Curls: 2x5x35.2 (+4.2 lbs)
F2 - Skullcrushers: 2x5x60.5 (+10.5 lbs)
G1 - Close Grip Bench: 1x5x61 (no change)

Diet very good. Workout very good. I even did it with hardly any rest between the supersets. Today was my last day of exams (woohoo) so I got back from Uni late and the gym was closing in 1 hour. I had to pack 1.5 hours training into 1 hour so i was feeling puky most of the time and thought i was going to explode. I dont reccomend power workouts on short rest. Still, I shifted the weight...that matters to me. I was happy to see extra set into hack squats and weights going up all over. I want to focus more on calfs and quads than any other body part. My upper body is growing so fast that i had two comments from girls today at uni about how nice i was looking. That cheered me up. I wish my actual girlfriend said those things to me :( Not to worry...I still totally adore her.

Augs

Augury
06-27-2004, 07:35 PM
Soooo.....tomorrow is a rest day. Good. I need it. This is my FIRST week of UD2 bulk that has not gone wrong. Ive eaten every calorie i was supposed to and made it to every workout. The calories REALLY are helping me recover faster and by god you need it when you train 4x a week.

im getting aches and pains...im working bloody hard. even the "depletion" day feels like a weight session rather than depletion.

Lastly i need to comment about weight and bodyfat. Basically im at the end of week 3 and I have very little info. I have the diet nailed and the workouts. I can tell you all im growing (even though the first two weeks i actually dropped weight). I suspect ive gained weight this week...but here is the problem.

I keep forgetting to weigh myself. I also have callipers and havent gotten into the habbit of using them. SO....from now on....I am going to weigh myself EVERY workout and caliper myself on fridays Tension and Sundays Power. The calipers are going to have toi happen late at night im afraid though. At least then ill be able to measure changes. Hopefully ill have something useful to report then. I know I was at 62 kilos on Wednesday in week 2. Thats all I can say. Hopefully ill form these last habbits and the journal will become useful!

Augs

Spartan936
06-27-2004, 07:41 PM
Just thought I'd stop by and say hi... hi! Nice workout today :nod: lol, when you are with your girlfriend one day, bend down and say "Oh, seems my shoes untied..." in a manly voice, then slowly bend down and start flexing like crazy as you grunt. lol. Maybe she'll say something.

Augury
06-28-2004, 04:24 AM
Heya Spartan :) Ty for dropping by

isnt that what girls are supposed to do whilst wearing a very short skirt...and let it slowly ride up the backs of their thighs as if by "accident" ?

*ok i need to stop thinking of that now*

TheGimp
06-28-2004, 05:49 AM
Wow, big update :)

Things seem to be going well. Congrats on the comments from the girls ;)

Augury
06-28-2004, 08:54 AM
yah....i hate to miss out days so i got my nose to the grindstone and did all the days individually. I feel like im putting on weight but i cant say yet. i have no one scales. will measure in gym on tues. I should theoretically be at my lightest pre tension workout on friday and at my heaviest pre power workout on sunday. i think.

oh the girls thing...its not a big deal. They are friends...not strangers suddenly going "oh wow what a cutie". They have seen my bodyshape change over the last 8 months and finally got around to mentioning it. Thats all. Still, i was flattered.

Spartan936
06-28-2004, 09:38 AM
Ha ha, nice. Your journal is organized too Augury! Don't worry! It's more organized than mine, heh heh.

Augury
06-29-2004, 05:57 AM
Monday, 29th June

Week 3, Day 7 - Cals at maintenance +20%. Carbs at 4g/kg

Total Cals: 1998 (797 under)
Carb: 241 (25 over)
Protein: 87 (73 under)
Fat: 63 (78 under)

So then. I did 6 days perfect and by the book and then screwed up the last day. How? Well thats kinda hard to say. I just wasnt hungry and i was super busy. Then my g/f came over cos she needed a cuddle to end all cuddles (family problems) and by the time i had gone to bed i just hadnt snaffled down enough calories. I got the carbs just fine. Way under on fat and protein was a poor (but acceptable) show. Not good. Still, of all the things to have too little of fat is the best one. So...damage limitation.

Next week all the measuring starts (weights and bodyfat) and ill also write out briefly the food im eating. Im doing all this in an attempt to please spartan who thinks Gimpsters journal is more organised. He made me cry big salty tears so Im going to show them! Ill have the best organised journal in the whole world. I want a medal mmkkay?

Augs.

ryuage
06-29-2004, 06:14 AM
no I will have the most organized journal! eat them cals! your on a mass gain version of ud2 :)

Vido
06-29-2004, 07:01 PM
If you track it all day, then at the end of the night realize you're almost 800 calories under, why don't you just eat those calories before bed? They're not going to go to fat just because you're eating them late at night. I can see someone not hitting their caloric total if they're NOT tracking them, but if you are I don't see how you should ever be under.

Augury
06-29-2004, 07:16 PM
Ok. This is gona be an info update. I weighed myself in the gym today and I had maintained weight. So basically:

Week 1: lost a kilo
Week 2: lost a kilo
Week 3: maintained weight.

Remeber this is a bulking diet. So Im obviously disheartened as I did a perfect week. I ate ****ing everything I was supposed to. So? The laws of physics simply tell me one thing: eat more. Armed with this gem of information i went with my tail between my legs to Lyles site simply to ask what in hell im doing wrong. Ive increased my intake SUBSTANTIALLY over the three weeks.

Ive gone from eating 15,231 cals a week to eating 17,906 per week and still not gaining. Im going to shoot for 20,000 this time. Cos im sick of it. Obviously Lyle was interested in what was going on but other members of the forum beat him to the advice and he just agreed with it. I have several options:

1) Increase fat intake except on the carbload days.
2) Increase carb intake (except on the carbload days) and yes, that includes raising carbs on depletion days
3) Lose a depletion day. So I would deplete on only wed, thurs and part of fri. Tuesday would become a similar day to monday eating at maintenance +20%

1) is out. I dont want to eat any more fat. Im sick of it.
2) This is distinctly possible. With care I think it could work.
3) also possible and will aid recovery. The workouts are HARSH. 4, full body workouts where in actuality even the two "depletion" workouts are almost tension workouts....its leaving my joints sore and me needing more recovery food.

Im going to avoid doing number 3 until week 5. its an emergency measure i think. So ill work around 2. So...changes for week 4:

maintenance will go up to 18xbodyweight

Tues: depletion -10% (from -15%) + Carbs at 150 (from 100)
Wed: depletion -10% (from -15%) + Carbs at 150 (from 100)
Thur: depletion -5% (from -15%) + carbs at 150 (from 100)
Fri: 3/4 depletion (maintenance) + carbs at 150. Begin carbload as normal
Sat: Carbload increased to 18g/kg. Fat kept low.
Sun: maintenance +20%, carbs set to 8g/kg
Mon: maintenance +20%, carbs set to 6g/kg

This should ammount to a significant calorific change. It is still in keeping with UD2 carb cycling. Lyle assures me this is all fine and dandy and will still work. He just thinks I have a crazy metabolism and a more entrenched response to carbs.

i hope you lot are learning stuff from all this crazyness.
Diet math to follow.

Vido
06-29-2004, 07:33 PM
How come increase carbs on carbload day isn't an option? That's what I'd be leaning towards. Like I said in The Gimp's journal, Lyle states that you can probably get away with eating upwards of 10,000 calories on the carb-up day and still not gain fat. Your body is depleted and in desperate need of fuel...this is when you can really feed it. I suggest this only because I find your total calories on the carb-up day very low in comparison to when I was doing it. Granted, I weigh more than you and my maintenance is slightly higher, but on my clean carb-up days I usually get around 5000 cals, and when I did "cheat" carb-up days I would say I hit around 10000 cals.

Augury
06-29-2004, 07:40 PM
Ok. Ive taken your advice on board Vido. Gone from 16g/kg 9which was the upper limit of what Lyle set UD2 carbload at) to 18g/kg.

Also changed sunday and monday to be 8g/kg (from 5) and 6g/kg (from 4) respectively.

Augs

Augury
06-29-2004, 07:45 PM
New Diet Math for Week 4

Maintenance now = 18 x 137 = 2466

Depletion Diet Days [maintenance -10%]
Tue: Depletion oriented tension workout (see w/o post).
Wed: Depletion oriented tension workout (see w/o post).
Total Cals: 2220
Carb: 150g
Protein: 165g
Fat: 106g

Thur: Recovery. Cardio. [maintenance -5%]
Total Cals: 2343
Carb: 150g
Protein: 165g
Fat: 120g
Meals at: 9am, 1pm, 5pm, 9pm, bedtime shake.

Friday [maintenance] for AM followed by Carbload (75%)
Friday Morn/Afternoon: 40-60 min bikeride for cardio
Total Cals: 1490
Carb: 113g
Protien: 124g
Fat: 60g
Meals at: 9am, 1pm, 5pm.

Friday Evening: Tension Workout (see w/o post)
CarbLoad Goal at 18g/kgLBM = 972g over 30 hrs
CL meal 1: post w/or shake. C: 100g (gluc+ fruc), P: 30g whey
CL meal 2: 9pm. C: 100g
CL meal 3: bedshake. C: 50g, P:15g whey, 1/4 cup CottCheese for Caesin
Total Carbs for eve: 250g.
Need to also make up: 35g of prot. Fat will be from tag along CL.
Evening Cals: 1474
Evening Carbs: 250g
Evening Prot: 42g
Evening Fat: 34g

Total for Friday:
Cals: 2964
Carbs: 363g
Prot: 165g
Fat: 94g

Saturday: Rest + CarbLoad Day [972-250=722g carbs left to eat]
Total Cals: 4178
Carb: 722g
Protien: 165g
Fat: 70g (tag along from carbs keep low)
Meals at: 9am(120g), 10:30am(120g), 12pm(100g), 3pm(100g)
6pm(80g), 9pm(70g), bedtime shake(25g).

Sunday: Power Workout [maintenance + 20%]
Total Cals: 3000
Carbs set at 8g/kg of LBM = 54 x 8 = 432g
protien: 165g
Fat: 65g
Meals: 9am, 1pm, 5pm, 9pm
Pre w/o shake at 11:30am. carbs 30g, protien 15g (whey)
Power W/o at 12pm.

Monday: Rest day [maintenance +20%]
Cardio in evening
Total Cals: 3000
Total Carbs: 6g/kg LBM of carbs = 324g
Total Prot: 165g
Total Fat: 116g

Grad Totals for Week:
Cals: 19,925 = 2846 per day = maintenance + 15% overall

Manveet
06-29-2004, 07:46 PM
To Vido, Augury and others doing the bulk variation;

Did you guys take any breaks between the cutting and bulking cycle? Or did you transition right away from the cut?

AllUp
06-29-2004, 07:53 PM
Monday, 29th June

Week 3, Day 7 - Cals at maintenance +20%. Carbs at 4g/kg

Total Cals: 1998 (797 under)
Carb: 241 (25 over)
Protein: 87 (73 under)
Fat: 63 (78 under)

So then. I did 6 days perfect and by the book and then screwed up the last day. How? Well thats kinda hard to say. I just wasnt hungry and i was super busy. Then my g/f came over cos she needed a cuddle to end all cuddles (family problems) and by the time i had gone to bed i just hadnt snaffled down enough calories. I got the carbs just fine. Way under on fat and protein was a poor (but acceptable) show. Not good. Still, of all the things to have too little of fat is the best one. So...damage limitation.


Augs.
LOL. Keep the food behind the couch on a table, so as you're hugging you can reach behind her and get ur cals in. :)

j/k. I know how the calorie thing is. Gotta make sure you get those cals in bro. Keep food wherever you know you're gonna be, work, your room, stashed at GF's house, even the car. :D

Augury
06-29-2004, 07:55 PM
Tuesday, 29th June

Week 4, Day 1 - Cals at maintenance -10%. 150g Carbs

Total Cals: 1982 (238 under - didnt know about new maths)
Carb: 156g (6 over new math. fine)
Protein: 151g (14 under. Not bad)
Fat: 91g (15 under. there are the cals under)

Depletion/Tension Workout:
m/c Leg Press : 4x12x220 (no change)
m/c Leg Curl : 4x12x88 (+11 lbs)
f/w Incline Bench : 4x12x72 (no change)
m/c Lat Pulldown : 4x12x110 (no change)
f/w Lateral Raise : 2x12x14 (no change)
m/c Calf Raise : 6x12x220 (+22 lbs + 2 extra sets)
f/w Skulls: 4x12x38.5 (no change)
f/w Hammer Curls: 2x12x22 (no change)

Weight: 62kilo, 137lbs

Comments: Well, i didnt work out the new diet maths till 2am in the morning becasue it took a while to get advice from Lyle et al. Its up and posted and today really wasnt far off it actually.
My workout went really well...very fast and smooth, some weights up. Felt positive.

If i dont gain weight this week, I am going to actually explode.

Augs

Vido
06-29-2004, 08:00 PM
To Vido, Augury and others doing the bulk variation;

Did you guys take any breaks between the cutting and bulking cycle? Or did you transition right away from the cut?

My diet's been kind of messed up the last couple of weeks, but everything is straightened out now. As for UD2, I plan to use the cutting version again beginning in mid-November in preparation for my trip to Mexico. For now though, I am done with it. I believe we've spoken about this before and I just really don't like full body workouts, and if I'm bulking (even if it's clean bulking) I want to enjoy myself. That being said, I'm doing the 5-day split that I think I showed you a few weeks ago, and doing calorie/carb cycling for the diet.

As for the question, I don't think it would be a big deal to just go straight into the bulking version. Perhaps it would be best to make conservative estimates for the first week though, so that you know you aren't eating too much. At worst then you go a week without any change in your body, and at best you either lose fat (too few cals) or gain muscle (right amount of cals).

Augury
06-29-2004, 08:04 PM
Manveet, Allup, Vido:

Thankyou all for the responses. It makes such a difference when you know people are reading all this crap i type and actually sanity checking it. It can get a bit blurry sometimes.

Manveet:
I only did one week of UD2 fatloss. Then I swapped to UD2 massgain without a break. Obviously the workouts got harder on massgain (depletion turns into a hybrid of depletion and tension) etc. However as you may see from reading back to the beginning....i lost a kilo in weeks 1 and 2 of massgain simply cos im not eating enough calories. So in actual fact the first two weeks of massgain acted like a crossover between UD2 fatloss and massgain anyhow. i think now...at week 4, I probably have enough calories to gain weight on. Im only little. Im eating 20,000 cals a week. if i dont gain weight ive probably got cancer.

Vido:
Thanks for the advice bro. i read it and i was a bit tired. i just made a change...and upped the ammount of carbs becasue of what you said on the carbload. The change is made and we will see. My question to you tho is this: if 16g/kg is the max our muscles can store....what is gained by me passing this level? ive gone to 18g/kg. if you ate 10,000 and only half that gets to the muscles...where is the rest actually going? It sure isnt going into glycogen stores and if you say its not going to fat...where is it?

Allup:
Dude. You sound like you have done this for too long lol. Have you actually got your techinique for eating food whilst cuddling your girlfriend nailed now? Im starting to get wise to this eating all the time thing. I am HAVING to eat more meals per day simply so my stomach dosnt burst. Starting to carry food around with me.....i feel such a dork.

Augs

Vido
06-29-2004, 08:36 PM
Im only little. Im eating 20,000 cals a week. if i dont gain weight ive probably got cancer.

Vido:
Thanks for the advice bro. i read it and i was a bit tired. i just made a change...and upped the ammount of carbs becasue of what you said on the carbload. The change is made and we will see. My question to you tho is this: if 16g/kg is the max our muscles can store....what is gained by me passing this level? ive gone to 18g/kg. if you ate 10,000 and only half that gets to the muscles...where is the rest actually going? It sure isnt going into glycogen stores and if you say its not going to fat...where is it?



Ok, first I will address how much you are currently eating and your lack of weight gain. 20,000 cals/7 days = about 2860 calories/day. Now I know you don't weigh all that much, but considering this diet is aimed at LEAN mass gain only, I wouldn't expect the numbers on the scale to be skyrocketing at this caloric level. The way the diet is set up it is almost as though it is moving you in the direction of one of those so-called "hardgainers" because of the way hormones are being manipulated in an effort to not gain bodyfat. That being said, as much as you don't want to hear it, don't be terribly surprised if the scale weight doesn't move yet again this week. It's just a hunch of mine, but I feel you still need to be eating even more.

Next, I'm not sure, but did Lyle specifically say 16 g/kg was the max we can store or was that just the upper range of his suggestion? Now, if he specifically said that 16g/kg was the maximum then I guess I'm stumped, except for the fact that when I said eat more on the carb-up days I didn't say eat more carbs. Yes, that is implied, but if you're already eating the maximum you can then upping protein is an option or even increasing fat. Supposedly fat on this day takes away from results. Well, first off I don't think it's as cut and dry as "if you eat fat on the carb-up day the whole diet is ruined" or something. If you need extra calories, fat is an option...I don't think it will kill you.

Now, I know Lyle suggested 12-16 g/kg carbs for the carbload. If he has no scientific evidence proving that your body cannot utilize more than 16 g/kg carbs, then I say there is no reason it cannot. To me, it's like those formulas people like to use for bulking, such as 20 g/lb bodyweight or whatever. Now, to capture more of the population, a better formula would be 18-22 g/lb bodyweight. However, this still would not include everyone out there. Some could gain mass on 14 g/lb, while others might need 30 g/lb. Again, I'm not sure of the scientific background behind Lyle's claim, but if there is none then I feel it's the same sort of thing. Lyle is recommending 12-16 g/kg. Maybe 80 or 90% of the people using his diet fall into that category...and maybe you're one of the 10-20% who do not.

Scott S
06-29-2004, 08:42 PM
Perhaps you should just eat normally to bulk. :D

TheGimp
06-30-2004, 01:48 AM
You are (slowly) moving in the right direction. You just need to find the right calorie levels and you WILL gain weight. Good luck with things this week.

Augury
06-30-2004, 04:55 AM
Vido: If you track it all day, then at the end of the night realize you're almost 800 calories under, why don't you just eat those calories before bed?

Thats the depressing thing. My totals for monday included the midnight feast I had to get my calorie intake TO what i posted lol. I was actually eating it as i was typing it all in. Why didnt i eat more? becasue i felt sick already. I didnt wanna eat tuna and olive oil before bed :((( I just chose my g/f over eating that night cos i was at her house. Next time she will have to beg me for attention whilst im eating. At this rate im going to end up engaged to a tin of goddamn tuna.

Vido: Ok, first I will address how much you are currently eating and your lack of weight gain. 20,000 cals/7 days = about 2860 calories/day. Now I know you don't weigh all that much, but considering this diet is aimed at LEAN mass gain only, I wouldn't expect the numbers on the scale to be skyrocketing at this caloric level.

You sir, are going to make a grown man cry lol. I swear to god, I have NEVER eaten this much in my entire life before. If i rewind back about 7 months I was 11 stone (154lbs, 70kg), potbelly and totally unfit. Now I am 62kg, a VERY different shape and attracting "your quite muscly now" comments from even guys. The thing is, I got fat and to 70kg by eating far less than this. How then, when Im literally forcing food down my throat am I managing not to gain weight? Its like I have a curse. Im currently eating a slice of bread covered in so much peanut butter that my mouth is sticking together. Regarding the 16g/kg, i skipped to the book and checked. he says that is the general max that muscle fibers can hold. So Im stumped too. He seems to base this on scientific evidence. So Im gona post this as a genuine question. If youi can only hold 16g/kg then if you eat 10,000 cals of carbs and dont gain fat then where is it? MagiCarbs TM. I hope you are wrong about me not gaining weight. Seriously...im 137lbs. how many calories do you think i should be eating?

ScottS Perhaps you should just eat normally to bulk :)

*puts hands over ears and says in a smeagol voice*
"no. not listening!"

GimpyGimpster the Gimp: You are (slowly) moving in the right direction. You just need to find the right calorie levels and you WILL gain weight. Good luck with things this week.

Ahhhh. The soothing voice of reason. Slowly is the word isnt it. Still, on the bright side my lifts have been climbing rapidly over these 3 weeks. Its not newbie gains, Ive been training 8 months solid. I have gained a lot of definition over the last 4 weeks of UD2ing. Muscles are bigger, fat deposits are smaller. In the longrun this dosnt matter. So I didnt gain weight on my first 3 weeks of UD2 Massgain? Worse things could happen. I could have gained 4lbs of fat and lost 3lbs of muscle. Im into the groove of this diet...I could happily pronounce today as week1 of another 8 weeks of UD2 massgain. The more i eat the less annoying the diet is. Im never hungry anymore. Still, I dont want to discover im breaking the laws of physics. I wanna gain weight! *sob*

Augs

TheGimp
06-30-2004, 06:22 AM
That's another thing: weight is not really what's important, body composition is. From the sound of things this is definitely improving. :thumbup:

dissipate
06-30-2004, 06:37 AM
heya augury, your journal is pretty interesting. the 'tuna and olive oil before bed' post caught my attention because sometimes i end up short of calories when i do my daily estimation in the evening and at that time i'm really full and sick of eating and don't feel like eating tuna or drinking a tablespoon of olive oil either. !!


The thing is, I got fat and to 70kg by eating far less than this. How then, when Im literally forcing food down my throat am I managing not to gain weight? Its like I have a curse.
could your metabolism have skyrocketed?

i'm having a strange problem too... while i was in thailand for a holiday, i ate a huge breakfast every morning and was so full that i skipped lunch and only ate dinner. that happened for about 3 days. when i came back, i lost a few kg, fat much more than lean mass. right now i'm watching my diet and have been doing cardio about 5 days a week, and 3 days a week i spend at the gym lifting. but. my bodyfat percentage is still about the same i think and my weight is also still the same. :confused:


Im currently eating a slice of bread covered in so much peanut butter that my mouth is sticking together.
:drooling: lol

good luck with the weight gaining! you seem to be doing really well!! :thumbup:

Vido
06-30-2004, 10:25 AM
That's another thing: weight is not really what's important, body composition is.

Very true.

Vido
06-30-2004, 10:27 AM
Vido: Ok, first I will address how much you are currently eating and your lack of weight gain. 20,000 cals/7 days = about 2860 calories/day. Now I know you don't weigh all that much, but considering this diet is aimed at LEAN mass gain only, I wouldn't expect the numbers on the scale to be skyrocketing at this caloric level.

You sir, are going to make a grown man cry lol. I swear to god, I have NEVER eaten this much in my entire life before. If i rewind back about 7 months I was 11 stone (154lbs, 70kg), potbelly and totally unfit. Now I am 62kg, a VERY different shape and attracting "your quite muscly now" comments from even guys. The thing is, I got fat and to 70kg by eating far less than this. How then, when Im literally forcing food down my throat am I managing not to gain weight? Its like I have a curse.

It's the nutrient partitioning effect of the diet. Averaging 2800 cals/day on UD2 is different than averaging 2800 cals/day on your typical diet.

Augury
06-30-2004, 07:02 PM
Sadly i agree with you Vido. the issue here is that any massgain I see should hopefully be mostly lean mass. Right now with maintaining weight even, im swapping fat for muscle. the mirror is telling me so.

I have a feeling about this week though. I actually think ill be putting on weight. Im weighing in 4x per week now and on my depletion days im heavier than normal. this is looking good.

details to follow

Augs

Augury
06-30-2004, 07:31 PM
Wednesday, 30th June

Week 4, Day 2 - Cals at maintenance -10%. 150g Carbs


FOOD
Total Cals: 2190 (30 under. perfect)
Carb: 146g (4 under. perfect)
Protein: 154g (11 under. not bad)
Fat: 114g (8 over. ill be damned. over on the EVIL fat)


WORKOUT
Depletion/Tension Workout:
m/c Leg Press : 4x12x220 (no change)
m/c Leg Curl : 4x12x88 (+11 lbs)
f/w Flat Bench : 4x12x71.5 (no change)
m/c Row : 4x12x66 (+11 lbs)
f/w Lateral Raise : 2x12x13.2 (no change)
m/c Calf Raise : 6x12x220 (up 2 sets)
f/w Skulls: 4x12x38.5 (up 2 sets)
f/w Hammer Curls: 2x12x22 (no change)
Leg Extension: 2x12x66 (new)


WEIGHT
62.5 kilos - 138lbs
Up 1lb from yesterday


COMMENTS
Oh, my favourite bit. The bit where I talk. Well, Im patting myself on the back. Im eating all my calories like a good boy. I even actually enjoyed my eating today. The workout rocked - hard, but rocked. Gains in a few places, but its supposed to be depletion still so im not looking to make too many gains here. But i put on 1lb from yesterday. Now i know y'all are gona say its water etc...and it prolly is...but remeber im depleting right now so im supposed to be losing water along with my glycogen. Anyhow...what matters is the trend and we will see how that looks as time passes. For now im happy.

Augs

TheGimp
07-01-2004, 02:17 AM
Finally gained some weight eh? Congrats :)

Augury
07-01-2004, 05:12 AM
lol. yeah. big deal huh.

Manveet
07-01-2004, 09:16 PM
Although my intentions are not to hijack your journal Augury, I wanna post up some of my numbers for my diet if I were going to do the mass gain variant. I'd rather have someone reading this journal point out any mistakes, so I'm not wasting my time.

Maintainence = 3800 calories

Day 1 depletion = 10%-3800 = 3420 cals, 100g carbs

Day 2 depletion = 10%-3800 = 3420 cals, 100g carbs

Day 3 rest + cardio (30 min) = 3800 cals, 100g carbs (this day confuses me, in the book it says maintenance, but not maintainence - 10-20%)?????

Day 4 AM = 75%-3800 = 2850, 100g carbs

Day 4 PM = carb load - 16gX89kg = 1424g carbs +1g/1lb protein (195-200g protein) + rest of will be fat 50-60g?

Day 5 - continue carb load - total calories from above would be ~ 6496 cals depending on fat and protein intake. A lot of the carbs I will be eating will have decent amounts of protein and fat, so I won't really have to eat specifically for those sources.

Day 6 - 10%+3800 cals = 4180 cals

Day 7 - 10%+3800 cals = 4180 cals

Now, the grand total for the week divided by 7 = 4049 cals, which is about 7% over my maintaince calories. Does any of that make sense? I should really be getting in about 10% over right? However, on the days where I will be most anabolic (Friday, Saturday and Sunday) I would be consuming an average of 4952 cals, which is 30% over my maintainence. This looks good, considering this diet is all about partioning right? Seems like you guys have gone over and over this point, but do you have any comments about how I have laid my diet out? Anything that needs changing?

Vido
07-02-2004, 12:39 AM
Manveet: I think at only 7% calories over maintenance you're going to be getting similar results to what has been happening to Augury...you'll be seeing positive body composition changes, but it won't really be a "bulk" in that you won't be gaining much, if any, weight. I'd suggest adding more cals to either the carbload, days 6 and 7, or all 3.

I also don't like when you say you'll be getting enough protein from all your carb sources. Sure, a bagel has 8 grams of protein or whatever it is, but is that quality protein? No, not at all. I don't know what Lyle had in mind, but I can't see the carbload being very anabolic when you're getting your protein from bagels, rice, and oats. I say shoot for your 200 g of protein from regular sources as well, ie., chicken, fish, cottage cheese, whey, egg whites, etc. I don't think this would be detrimental to the carbload, but would help it...and it would give you an extra 1000 cals or so for the day that would help towards your weekly total.

Augury
07-02-2004, 04:28 AM
manveet:
Diet looks fine technically apart from 2 things. You asked about day 3. I had same problem. Asked Lyle. There is a mess up in Ud2 book. In the text and I quote from page 72:

For the UD2, I think a slightly different approach is better. For mass gains, I'd suggest several changes. The first would be both an increase in calories (to maintenance or maybe 10% below) AND carbohydrates (to 100 grams/day) on the low-carbohydrate days.

So thats your answer. all low carb days are maint or maint-10%. If you looked at the table on p73 like i did, its wrong and lyle admitted it.

The other thing is on your 75% day. you are eating 3/4 of the cals of a normal day but your carb intake is still set to 100g. you need to drop it to 3/4 too so 75g of carbs pre workout.

Vido:
The body partitioning thing certainly does have an effect. My rough "sanity check" of totalling all the cals and dividing by 7 really dosnt help much. I think its more usefull to add up the cals on the low carbs days and div by 4 (or however may days and day portions you do) and total the carbs on load and replenish days and div by whatever. As you pointed out there are anabolic and catabolic days in UD2. On the catabolic days you are more strongly catabolic than normal and on the anabolic days you are mad for it. averaging dosnt work and ive proved that basically.

im eating 20xbodywight in lbs right now. arbitrary number i know but gods...even powerlifters dont seem to eat this much relative to their bodyweight. im now worried that im going to only be putting on fat :( i guess its just a crazy worry but its still there in my mind.

im not sure what you were getting at regarding the protein sources from carbs. If you were saying that they were not "complete" then I agree to an extent. However if you have mixed carb sources then you will most likely end up with complete amino acid sources for the day. When i CL i actually do eat a few tins of tuna becasue i dont get enough tag along from protein. I do shoot my total for protein also...normally i eat 165 but i normally end up around 200 for the CL day. The CL day is about glycogen repletion mainly but obviously growth from the tension workout is there. you are going to be plenty anabolic. The days to make sure you get good and plenty of protein are the two days of the power workout and the day after IMHO.

Manveet
07-02-2004, 09:26 AM
Thanks for the input Vido, Augury.

Vido
07-02-2004, 10:29 AM
im not sure what you were getting at regarding the protein sources from carbs. If you were saying that they were not "complete" then I agree to an extent. However if you have mixed carb sources then you will most likely end up with complete amino acid sources for the day. When i CL i actually do eat a few tins of tuna becasue i dont get enough tag along from protein. I do shoot my total for protein also...normally i eat 165 but i normally end up around 200 for the CL day. The CL day is about glycogen repletion mainly but obviously growth from the tension workout is there. you are going to be plenty anabolic. The days to make sure you get good and plenty of protein are the two days of the power workout and the day after IMHO.

Yes, I was referring to incomplete protein sources. Maybe you are in an "anabolic" mode on the carb-up day in that you are in a caloric surplus and certain hormones might be working their magic, but without protein you can't build muscle...period. It's just a practice of mine anyway (regardless of diet) to never count incomplete sources of protein towards my daily protein total. Of course, I still count all of the calories from a carb source, even if it has 10g of incomplete protein, but if I'm aiming for 200g of protein/day it's going to come from meat, cottage cheese, whey, etc.

Regardless of whether anyone agrees with this approach, it does help specifically in this case with Manveet's need to increase calories at some point during the week.

Augury
07-02-2004, 12:12 PM
Im getting a bit dissilusioned.

ive upped calories so far now that my fat intake is extrordinary during the depletion days. I feel that the weight im putting on is almost purely fat. Im getting a bit grumpy.

i listen to my body and right now it is actually telling me "perhaps UD2 massgain dosnt quite work for your body type/physiology". It works great as a flat loss diet when doing the 50g of carb depletion days etc....but i am beginning to feel im having to push the mechanics of the diet way too far and way off course in order to put on mass. it is beginning to "not feel right" and i honestly cant train and focus properly when im having to constantly worry and think about how to make my diet work.

im getting pretty close to calling it a day here for ud2 massgain. i would appreciate anyones input on this. what bulking doets would any of you lot recomend? i think i do well with high carbs and lower fat....at least thats how i "feel".

Augs

TheGimp
07-02-2004, 12:25 PM
Augs,

I'm about to go out on the piss so this will have to be a hurried piece of advice but Lyle wrote an article (a couple of articles in fact) about comparing diets (first one here: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/articles/nutrition/diets_compare.php) basically saying that people do better on different diets - e.g. some do well on low carb, some do well on high carb etc. I'd also like to make the point that you shouldn't feel you need to continue "for the sake of it". I know you felt bad about giving up on UD2.0 weight loss so soon and must be feeling the same about mass gain (or maybe not ;)) but don't feel like this is a failure. It's a learning experience.

Vido
07-02-2004, 07:03 PM
im getting pretty close to calling it a day here for ud2 massgain. i would appreciate anyones input on this. what bulking doets would any of you lot recomend? i think i do well with high carbs and lower fat....at least thats how i "feel".



You can still cycle carbs and calories, it just doesn't have to be as precise as UD2. Figure out how many calories you want to take in for the week, and then eat more carbs/cals on training days and less on off days, making sure that on average you're hitting your total. You never need to go low carb on any days like on UD2 (although I prefer this method of manipulating carb intake quite substantially around workouts), so you shouldn't need to eat as much fat.

You can also just eat the same ratios every day if you want for simplicity sake, but I like the former idea more.

Scott S
07-02-2004, 07:17 PM
i listen to my body and right now it is actually telling me "perhaps UD2 massgain dosnt quite work for your body type/physiology". It works great as a flat loss diet when doing the 50g of carb depletion days etc....but i am beginning to feel im having to push the mechanics of the diet way too far and way off course in order to put on mass. it is beginning to "not feel right" and i honestly cant train and focus properly when im having to constantly worry and think about how to make my diet work.

im getting pretty close to calling it a day here for ud2 massgain. i would appreciate anyones input on this. what bulking doets would any of you lot recomend? i think i do well with high carbs and lower fat....at least thats how i "feel".

Augs

That IS kinda what I was suggesting. Perhaps you should just take a couple months, and get fat and strong. Then diet again. ;)

TheGimp
07-06-2004, 04:32 AM
I'm dying to find out what your plans are :)

Augury
07-06-2004, 04:59 AM
lol. me too!

honestly, i dont think it will be anything spectacular. Im trying to keep the bulk plans and diet as simple and functional as possible. eat + train. :)

just kinda putting it all together right now, but i think you will be a little dissapointed when you see my plans becasue compared to UD2 its....well...dull.

Augs