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migs
07-03-2004, 01:44 AM
Is it true that eating carbs with proteins will cause them to turn into fat ? I know it doesnt seem correct but Ive actually heard this from several trainers and it seems impossible to do. One trainer told me to eat them seperate and not in the same meal does anyone do that ?

Anyone heard about this ?

SalahG
07-03-2004, 01:59 AM
No, it doesn't work that way. The general rule of thumb is, in a given meal, you either have Carbs+Proteins or Fats+Proteins but NEVER Carbs+Fat. Carbs+Fat is just asking for fat storage.

Shao-LiN
07-03-2004, 11:08 AM
That's such an overexaggeration. Eating over maintenance is asking for fat storage, not simply eating carbs and fat in a meal.

In any event, your trainers suck. Find a new one!

SalahG
07-03-2004, 03:26 PM
That's such an overexaggeration. Eating over maintenance is asking for fat storage, not simply eating carbs and fat in a meal.

In any event, your trainers suck. Find a new one!
True, but it is best to avoid Carbs+Fat in the same meal, given your hardcore, but most people aren't so it doesn't matter.

Maxgain
07-03-2004, 04:00 PM
Why avoid fats and carbs if you are below maintainence you wont gain fat and even for bulking if you had consumed a slow protein before you would still have amino acids for muscle growth

SalahG
07-03-2004, 04:44 PM
Why avoid fats and carbs if you are below maintainence you wont gain fat and even for bulking if you had consumed a slow protein before you would still have amino acids for muscle growth
Here's how it works, the Carbs will cause a big insulin spike, the Fats you eat need insulin in order to be stored, the insulin stores the Fats and there you go.

Songsangnim
07-04-2004, 12:36 AM
Here's how it works, the Carbs will cause a big insulin spike, the Fats you eat need insulin in order to be stored, the insulin stores the Fats and there you go.


But if you are below or at maintance (as was the scenario to which you replied) the fats will not be stored but used to provide energy.

SalahG
07-04-2004, 12:48 AM
But if you are below or at maintance (as was the scenario to which you replied) the fats will not be stored but used to provide energy.
It's not that simple, I'll post up on it later, I don't feel like typing right now.

Scott S
07-05-2004, 02:57 AM
Please do. Even though studies have proven otherwise, I'd like to see your argument.

In a hypocaloric state, insulin doesn't really do much to keep the body from using those carbohydrates and triglycerides as fuel.

migs
07-05-2004, 03:52 AM
What happens if your caloric intake is less than your expenditure ? You begin to lose weight right ? If you have low carb intake and high protein intake will you burn protein for fuel or start breaking down the stored fat ?

Aspect
07-05-2004, 05:08 AM
Here's how it works, the Carbs will cause a big insulin spike, the Fats you eat need insulin in order to be stored, the insulin stores the Fats and there you go.

Actually, if you eat fat with carbohydrate, it slows the rise in blood sugar levels (which in turn slows the release of insulin). So you get a far "flatter" spike after eating carbs and fat than if you eat carbs alone or carbs and protein. This is why when a diabetic (or person suffering from hypoglycaemia) has a hypo, they should be treated with something sugary that does not contain fat or protein (e.g. soda, fruit juice, dextrose tablets, refined table sugar etc., as opposed to chocolate or a donut).

That said, your logic is still confused. Even if your fat storage mechanism is optimised, you still won't put on fat overall unless you eat too much. You may store the fat you eat and burn different fat molecules off (though you're more likely to simply use the eaten fat as fuel), but the overall result is the same - if you eat less than you need, you won't gain fat overall.

Songsangnim
07-05-2004, 07:20 AM
Please do. Even though studies have proven otherwise, I'd like to see your argument.

In a hypocaloric state, insulin doesn't really do much to keep the body from using those carbohydrates and triglycerides as fuel.


:withstupi

hemants
07-05-2004, 07:27 AM
It is DESIREABLE to eat fat with carbs as the fat will delay gastric emptying and make for slower digestion.

HemiVision
07-05-2004, 01:13 PM
It is DESIREABLE to eat fat with carbs as the fat will delay gastric emptying and make for slower digestion.

I'd say it depends on the situation. If you're talking about post-workout or first thing in the morning, you probably want the carbs to digest quickly to get you out of a catabolic state.

SalahG
07-05-2004, 02:44 PM
Please do. Even though studies have proven otherwise, I'd like to see your argument.

In a hypocaloric state, insulin doesn't really do much to keep the body from using those carbohydrates and triglycerides as fuel.
Show me those studies to enlighten me, I'm too lazy to search for studies right now, maybe later.

Scott S
07-05-2004, 04:12 PM
Damn you're lazy. I believe the burden of proof is on you to show how I could gain weight on 1200 calories of fat and carbohydrates every day.

SalahG
07-05-2004, 06:02 PM
Damn you're lazy. I believe the burden of proof is on you to show how I could gain weight on 1200 calories of fat and carbohydrates every day.
You're right, you can't, but you'll lose a ton of muscle, and get softer. When I said that rule, I meant for the dedicated, hardcore lifter who wants to stay as lean as possible while trying to put on weight.

To add, check out my journal, and we'll see who's the lazy one bro.

Shao-LiN
07-05-2004, 06:37 PM
There are levels of laziness. I lift, diet, etc. But when it comes to doing menial things like washing the dishes, I'm lazy.

SalahG
07-05-2004, 08:05 PM
There are levels of laziness. I lift, diet, etc. But when it comes to doing menial things like washing the dishes, I'm lazy.
True.

Holto
07-05-2004, 08:34 PM
Show me those studies to enlighten me, I'm too lazy to search for studies right now, maybe later.

look up the the PRINCIPLE of Energy Balance

it will help you understand why the body gains or loses weight

SalahG
07-06-2004, 01:06 AM
OK you guys are not understanding me correctly, the idea of Carbs+Fats in one meal is really a clean bulking thing, and that was what I was trying to get across. Of course I understand that a caloric deficit will bring about weight loss. Here is an article I found.


Bulking for Fat Boys

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you are someone who does not gain bodyfat even eating big macs five times a day don’t read anymore I don’t want to waste your time. With that out of the way let’s move on.

How do you bulk when your somatotype tends to lean towards the fatboy endomorph side of the spectrum? This is a tough thing and I have learned a lot from the mistakes I have made in the past and I hope to save you some trouble in your quest to get big. Here are the things that I have found to be critical.

1. If you are fat at the current time get yourself under control before you ever consider bulking. Being fat is a vicious cycle, the fatter you are, your body is more proned to becoming even fatter. Fat cells tend to be a place for estrogen to hang out and as we all know estrogen is one of our worst enemies against being lean and defined. If you are currently out of control in the body fat department get it down to at least 9 or 10 before bulking. It will save you in the end. It has been shown that the leaner you are the higher the percentage of lean muscle your body ads when bulking. So first things first,, get lean!!
2. Don’t mix carbs with fats… Those of us whom tend to get fat easy are carb sensitive and don’t respond well to insulin spikes especially with fats involved. What happens when you eat carbs with fats? The answer is your body produces an insulin spike and tends to pull the fats more readily into the fat cells than usual. Keep your meals that are high in carbs as low as possible in the fats and this should help stave off fat storage to an extent.
3. Avoid Simple Carbs like the plague. Those of us that are fatboys by nature tend to be to carb too sensitive to be eating meals that contain excess simple carbs. The only exception to this rule would be your post workout shake when you actually want an insulin spike. Ben & Jerry’s is not a good bulking food,,, remember that.
4. Eat clean and eat a lot…. Bulking is not an excuse to eat like a pig. I know I love to eat and have made this mistake many times. When you get overly fat while bulking you are going to have to trim up at some point these are the facts boys. When that time comes the more fat you have to lose the more muscle you will lose too and the longer and harder you are going to have to diet. I know now that I will keep my body within at least 14 weeks striking distance anything more than that is a struggle to diet and do cardio day in and day out.
5. Try to limit your fats to EFA’s as much as possible. I would recommend making sure that at least 50% of your fat intake is from EFA’s. EFA’s have been shown to have some mechanism in promoting fat metabolism and they also promote heart health. Also, remember not to go to low fat, your body needs the fats in order to repair itself.
6. Don’t eat carbs late in the day.. Do not eat carbs before going to bed since this tends to lead to fat storage at night for us fatboys. I try to get as little carbs as possible in my last two meals which are about 4 to 5 hours before bedtime. Your body tends to be more prone towards pushing carbs into the fat cells later in the day since your metabolism is winding down. Also, by not eating carbs this will deplete your glycogen before bedtime making it better to load up on carbs in the am before working out.
7. Food ratios, Here is what I found works for me
Protein 1.5 to 2 g per lb of body weight
Carbs 1.5 to 2 g per lb of body weight
Fats 0.5 to o.75 g per lb of body weight

Here is a sample of a diet I am going to use this fall….

BULK DIET W.O. DAY .

Meal # 1 8:00 am
1 & 1/2 cup of oats
1/2 cont. egg btrs. + 2 whole eggs
1 scoop of pro cplx. & Metamucil
16 oz of skim milk

Meal # 2 11:00 am
8 oz of lean ground beef
1 scoop of pro cplx. & Metamucil
1 & 1/2 cup of white rice

Meal # 3 (pw) 3:00 pm
100 g of dextrose
4 scoops of pro complex
10 grams of creatine
10 grams of Glutamine

Meal # 4 4:00 pm
6 oz chicken breast
1 & 1/2 cup of oats
1 scoop of pro cplx. & Metamucil

Meal # 5 7:00 pm
6 oz sirloin
1 cup of broccoli/ or salad
2 tbsp olive oil

Meal # 6 10:00 pm
2 scoops of pro cplx. & Metamucil
10 g of Glutamine
10 flax or fish oil pills

TOTAL FOR DAY 4755 calories 131 g fat 488 g protein 399 g of carbs

Aspect
07-06-2004, 02:32 AM
SalahG, please read my post above - eating fat with carbohydrate lessens the height (i.e. the severity) of the insulin spike, because the fat slows the transfer of the carbs into the blood stream (meaning the blood sugar level rises more slowly, which in turn means the body releases insulin more slowly). So for exmaple, a chocolate bar (carbs and fat) raises the blood sugar level much more slowly than, say, a slice of white bread or a sugary soft drink. Eating fat and carbs together won't produce an insulin spike in the traditional sense - it will simply mean a gradual rise then fall (so a graph would look like a gentle curve rather than a pronounced "spike").

Perhaps better advice would be "don't eat a lot of simple sugars on an empty stomach, wait 30 minutes, then eat a lot of fat".

I'm sorry, but the article you've quoted isn't exacly brimming with scientific evidence. It's basically rehashing some "well-known facts" about carbs, many of which aren't actually facts at all and have no scientific validity.

migs
07-06-2004, 04:51 AM
488g proteins !! That is like twice the daily recommendation.

"What happens if your caloric intake is less than your expenditure ? You begin to lose weight right ? If you have low carb intake and high protein intake will you burn protein for fuel or start breaking down the stored fat ?"

galileo
07-06-2004, 09:59 AM
Here's how it works, the Carbs will cause a big insulin spike, the Fats you eat need insulin in order to be stored, the insulin stores the Fats and there you go.

That means you are under the assumption that fats are only in your blood stream after a meal containing fat. This isn't accurate. Anytime you spike insulin, you're running the risk of pushing fats into the wrong places, no matter what the contents of the meal. If you are really concerned about this, then you need to take an approach that uses a much bigger timeframe, and this is not really effective in practice. Studies are showing that some types of fat stay in your blood stream for over 24 hours. Can't really food-combine your way around that, I suppose.

SalahG
07-06-2004, 10:11 AM
SalahG, please read my post above - eating fat with carbohydrate lessens the height (i.e. the severity) of the insulin spike, because the fat slows the transfer of the carbs into the blood stream (meaning the blood sugar level rises more slowly, which in turn means the body releases insulin more slowly). So for exmaple, a chocolate bar (carbs and fat) raises the blood sugar level much more slowly than, say, a slice of white bread or a sugary soft drink. Eating fat and carbs together won't produce an insulin spike in the traditional sense - it will simply mean a gradual rise then fall (so a graph would look like a gentle curve rather than a pronounced "spike").

Perhaps better advice would be "don't eat a lot of simple sugars on an empty stomach, wait 30 minutes, then eat a lot of fat".

I'm sorry, but the article you've quoted isn't exacly brimming with scientific evidence. It's basically rehashing some "well-known facts" about carbs, many of which aren't actually facts at all and have no scientific validity.
I don't believe you. The don't mix carbs with fats rule comes from top professional bodybuilders and athletes, so I believe them. If you can show me a study that says otherwise, with spitting out pseudo science jargin I will apologize and say I was wrong.

(By the way, good luck finding ANY study on this subject, type in carbs and fats in to google and you'll get back 30000000 sites on atkins, and ckd diets, I tried to find one to prove my point, and just found articles written by pro body builders and such)

SalahG
07-06-2004, 10:12 AM
488g proteins !! That is like twice the daily recommendation.

"What happens if your caloric intake is less than your expenditure ? You begin to lose weight right ? If you have low carb intake and high protein intake will you burn protein for fuel or start breaking down the stored fat ?"
488 grams, I didn't write that article, but that diet is ACE for the elite.

As for your second question, I don't understand what you're trying ot say.

SalahG
07-06-2004, 10:15 AM
That means you are under the assumption that fats are only in your blood stream after a meal containing fat. This isn't accurate. Anytime you spike insulin, you're running the risk of pushing fats into the wrong places, no matter what the contents of the meal. If you are really concerned about this, then you need to take an approach that uses a much bigger timeframe, and this is not really effective in practice. Studies are showing that some types of fat stay in your blood stream for over 24 hours. Can't really food-combine your way around that, I suppose.
Carbs spike your insulin more than other nutrients. Notice I'm saying to avoid it, not NEVER EVER DO THIS!!!! It's a tip, and it's worked well for me, avoid the the carbs and fats in the same meal when bulking.

(This really doesn't apply to ectomorph's, just endo's and some meso's)

galileo
07-06-2004, 10:22 AM
Carbs spike your insulin more than other nutrients. Notice I'm saying to avoid it, not NEVER EVER DO THIS!!!! It's a tip, and it's worked well for me, avoid the the carbs and fats in the same meal when bulking.

(This really doesn't apply to ectomorph's, just endo's and some meso's)

You did not address the issue that I brought up. Even people who once espoused this method (like Berardi) are back-peddling on the issue. The fact is, you constantly have fats in your blood stream. Limiting the insulin spiking is a great way to avoid fat, but avoiding fat + carbs meals does not accomplish this. There are a number of ways to accomplish this, such as eating complete small meals and watching the types of carbohydrates that you ingest. I can see value in getting the bulk of your carbs in the morning, but as a whole there isn't a lot of supporting evidence behind this.

If you believe that something is accurate because a "top professional bodybuilder" does it, then you should examine the habits of those you are mimicking. Most of them do not follow many rules at all as they have drugs and genetics to pick up their slack.

HemiVision
07-06-2004, 12:35 PM
look up the the PRINCIPLE of Energy Balance

it will help you understand why the body gains or loses weight

Here's what I found at http://www.eufic.org/en/quickfacts/obesity.htm

Changes in energy (fat) stores =
energy (calorie) intake - energy expenditure


Is this what you're talking about? If so, I think it's an oversimplification. It works in a basic sense for cutting when you're expending more energy than you're taking in and your fat stores decrease. It doesn't seem to work for bulking, because this equation basically says that anything you eat and don't burn goes into fat stores. If this was the case, bodybuilders would never eat over maintenance and would never put on muscle.

AllUp
07-06-2004, 02:31 PM
Ultimately Calorie intake would take priority over the insulin spike in terms of cutting assuming metabolism isn't crunked and the diet is in-check. Insulin would fall second, as someone with a daily small-moderate calorie deficit is going to lose fat regardless, especially w/some type of physical activity. Ultimately Insulin would play a part when one is at maintenence calories or higher (bulk), where the excess calories wont be burned, during a carb loading period (over maintenence as well), or when someone's metabolism slows down due to low leptin (due to long-term calorie deficit).

Supposedly Fish-oil slows insulin secretion in general on a carb-load day. I usually stop supplementing the afternoon before (14-18h gap between final supplementation and next-day carb-load)

Aspect
07-07-2004, 03:40 AM
If you can show me a study that says otherwise, with spitting out pseudo science jargin I will apologize and say I was wrong.

See the bottom of the post for some studies.

SalahG, I'm not being funny, but the effect of foods on blood glucose levels (and therefore on insulin release) is well-documented by research into diabetes. I've listed a dozen or so articles below, but there are literally hundreds if you care to look further. As I'm sure you're aware, insulin spikes are caused by a rapid rise in blood glucose levels, which is exactly what diabetics have to do when they have a hypoglycemic attack. So research into blood glucose levels is quite abundant.

Aside from all the studies, I'm a diabetic myself. I regularly have hypoglycemic episodes, and therefore I regularly have to raise my blood glucose level rapidly (by "regularly", I mean 3-4 times every week, which is maybe 1,000 times over the last five years). I have a lot of personal experience, and I have tried all sorts of food combinations to raise my blood glucose quickly. And fat and carbs was the worst combination I tried. It simply didn't hike my blood glucose level up quickly enough.

However, don't just take my word for it. You can prove all this yourself. Buy a blood glucose monitor - it'll not cost you much. Then you can eat a meal, test your BG at 5-minute intervals over the next 45 minutes or so, and graph the result. Insulin spikes are directly related to blood glucose, so if your BG spikes then you'll have an insulin spike. On an empty stomach, try this with a normal meal (i.e. carb, fat and protein), try it with a load of simple carbs, try it with complex carbs, and try it with carbs + fat. You'll be able to see personally what effect each meal has - no need to rely on me (or on the articles you found), you can prove them yourself.

If you still don't want to believe me, that's fine. You've had personal success your way, and that's great. I just want to make others aware of what I believe are some pretty compelling facts. If people want to avoid carbs + fats together, that's fine - just so long as they can make that kind of decision based on accurate facts.

By the way, if you want some studies or links on the subject, here are some non-scientific ones (i.e. anecdotal evidence):

http://www.diagnose-me.com/cond/C607965.html (extract: "The glycemic index of a given food depends on a number of factors. In general, fiber, fat and protein slow down the absorption of carbohydrates in foods.")

http://www.teenbodybuilding.com/mike13.htm (extract: "Eating fat, fiber or even protein - especially caseinate - along with carbohydrates lowers the rate at which they enter the bloodstream. This tactic reduces insulin levels and may halt fat storage that can result from eating the carbohydrate by itself.")

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/carbohydrates.html (extract: "The more fat or acid a food contains, the slower its carbohydrates are converted to sugar and absorbed into the bloodstream.")

http://www.exrx.net/Nutrition/Carbohydrates.html (extract: "Soluble fiber, fat, acidic foods, and protein (particularly meat) significantly blunts insulin spike")

And some medical ones relating to diabetes and hypo management:

Hepburn DA. Symptoms of hypoglycaemia. In: Frier BM, Fisher BM, eds. Hypoglycaemia and Diabetes: Clinical and Physiological Aspects. London, UK: Edward Arnold; 1993:93-103.

The Diabetes Control and Complications Trial Research Group. Effects of intensive diabetes therapy on neuropsychological function in adults in the Diabetes Control and Complications Trial. Ann Intern Med. 1996;124:379-388.

Reichard P, Pihl M. Mortality and treatment side-effects during long-term intensified conventional insulin treatment in the Stockholm Diabetes Intervention Study. Diabetes. 1994;43:313-317.

American Diabetes Association: Nutrition recommendations and principles for individuals with diabetes mellitus: 1986. Diabetes Care 10:126–132, 1987

American Diabetes Association: Nutrition recommendations and principles for people with diabetes mellitus (Position Statement). Diabetes Care 17:519–522, 1994

Slama G, Traynard P-Y, Desplanque N, et al. The search for an optimized treatment of hypoglycemia. Carbohydrates in tablets, solution, or gel for the correction of insulin reactions. Arch Intern Med. 1990;150:589-593.

Wiethop BV, Cryer PE. Alanine and terbutaline in treatment of hypoglycemia in IDDM. Diabetes Care. 1993;16:1131-1136.

U.K. Prospective Diabetes Study (UKPDS) Group: Intensive blood-glucose control with sulphonylureas or insulin compared with conventional treatment and risk of complications in patients with type 2 diabetes (UKPDS 33). Lancet 352:837–853, 1998

Brodows RG, Williams C, Amatruda JM. Treatment of insulin reactions in diabetics. JAMA. 1984;252:3378-3381.

Special problems. In: Skyler JS, ed. Medical Management of Type 1 Diabetes. 3rd ed. Alexandria, VA: American Diabetes Association; 1998:134-143.

Canadian Diabetes Association. The role of dietary sugars in diabetes mellitus. Beta Release. 1991;15:117-123.

Monoject insulin reaction gel [product monograph]. Montreal, QC: Schering Canada Inc.; 1999.

Gunning RR, Garber AJ. Bioactivity of instant glucose. Failure of absorption through oral mucosa. JAMA. 1978;240:1611-1612.

Cryer PE, Fisher JN, Shamoon H. Hypoglycemia. Diabetes Care. 1994;17:734-755.

hemants
07-07-2004, 09:03 AM
Well that's the end of that now :-)

SalahG
07-07-2004, 09:56 AM
See the bottom of the post for some studies.

SalahG, I'm not being funny, but the effect of foods on blood glucose levels (and therefore on insulin release) is well-documented by research into diabetes. I've listed a dozen or so articles below, but there are literally hundreds if you care to look further. As I'm sure you're aware, insulin spikes are caused by a rapid rise in blood glucose levels, which is exactly what diabetics have to do when they have a hypoglycemic attack. So research into blood glucose levels is quite abundant.

Aside from all the studies, I'm a diabetic myself. I regularly have hypoglycemic episodes, and therefore I regularly have to raise my blood glucose level rapidly (by "regularly", I mean 3-4 times every week, which is maybe 1,000 times over the last five years). I have a lot of personal experience, and I have tried all sorts of food combinations to raise my blood glucose quickly. And fat and carbs was the worst combination I tried. It simply didn't hike my blood glucose level up quickly enough.

However, don't just take my word for it. You can prove all this yourself. Buy a blood glucose monitor - it'll not cost you much. Then you can eat a meal, test your BG at 5-minute intervals over the next 45 minutes or so, and graph the result. Insulin spikes are directly related to blood glucose, so if your BG spikes then you'll have an insulin spike. On an empty stomach, try this with a normal meal (i.e. carb, fat and protein), try it with a load of simple carbs, try it with complex carbs, and try it with carbs + fat. You'll be able to see personally what effect each meal has - no need to rely on me (or on the articles you found), you can prove them yourself.

If you still don't want to believe me, that's fine. You've had personal success your way, and that's great. I just want to make others aware of what I believe are some pretty compelling facts. If people want to avoid carbs + fats together, that's fine - just so long as they can make that kind of decision based on accurate facts.

By the way, if you want some studies or links on the subject, here are some non-scientific ones (i.e. anecdotal evidence):

http://www.diagnose-me.com/cond/C607965.html (extract: "The glycemic index of a given food depends on a number of factors. In general, fiber, fat and protein slow down the absorption of carbohydrates in foods.")

http://www.teenbodybuilding.com/mike13.htm (extract: "Eating fat, fiber or even protein - especially caseinate - along with carbohydrates lowers the rate at which they enter the bloodstream. This tactic reduces insulin levels and may halt fat storage that can result from eating the carbohydrate by itself.")

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/carbohydrates.html (extract: "The more fat or acid a food contains, the slower its carbohydrates are converted to sugar and absorbed into the bloodstream.")

http://www.exrx.net/Nutrition/Carbohydrates.html (extract: "Soluble fiber, fat, acidic foods, and protein (particularly meat) significantly blunts insulin spike")

And some medical ones relating to diabetes and hypo management:

Hepburn DA. Symptoms of hypoglycaemia. In: Frier BM, Fisher BM, eds. Hypoglycaemia and Diabetes: Clinical and Physiological Aspects. London, UK: Edward Arnold; 1993:93-103.

The Diabetes Control and Complications Trial Research Group. Effects of intensive diabetes therapy on neuropsychological function in adults in the Diabetes Control and Complications Trial. Ann Intern Med. 1996;124:379-388.

Reichard P, Pihl M. Mortality and treatment side-effects during long-term intensified conventional insulin treatment in the Stockholm Diabetes Intervention Study. Diabetes. 1994;43:313-317.

American Diabetes Association: Nutrition recommendations and principles for individuals with diabetes mellitus: 1986. Diabetes Care 10:126–132, 1987

American Diabetes Association: Nutrition recommendations and principles for people with diabetes mellitus (Position Statement). Diabetes Care 17:519–522, 1994

Slama G, Traynard P-Y, Desplanque N, et al. The search for an optimized treatment of hypoglycemia. Carbohydrates in tablets, solution, or gel for the correction of insulin reactions. Arch Intern Med. 1990;150:589-593.

Wiethop BV, Cryer PE. Alanine and terbutaline in treatment of hypoglycemia in IDDM. Diabetes Care. 1993;16:1131-1136.

U.K. Prospective Diabetes Study (UKPDS) Group: Intensive blood-glucose control with sulphonylureas or insulin compared with conventional treatment and risk of complications in patients with type 2 diabetes (UKPDS 33). Lancet 352:837–853, 1998

Brodows RG, Williams C, Amatruda JM. Treatment of insulin reactions in diabetics. JAMA. 1984;252:3378-3381.

Special problems. In: Skyler JS, ed. Medical Management of Type 1 Diabetes. 3rd ed. Alexandria, VA: American Diabetes Association; 1998:134-143.

Canadian Diabetes Association. The role of dietary sugars in diabetes mellitus. Beta Release. 1991;15:117-123.

Monoject insulin reaction gel [product monograph]. Montreal, QC: Schering Canada Inc.; 1999.

Gunning RR, Garber AJ. Bioactivity of instant glucose. Failure of absorption through oral mucosa. JAMA. 1978;240:1611-1612.

Cryer PE, Fisher JN, Shamoon H. Hypoglycemia. Diabetes Care. 1994;17:734-755.
I stand corrected.

Holto
07-07-2004, 12:09 PM
Salah G...much respect for admitting that

I have learned some really critical things by being corrected by people on this site

people like Galileo and Tryska really help alot

Holto
07-07-2004, 12:12 PM
Here's what I found at http://www.eufic.org/en/quickfacts/obesity.htm

Changes in energy (fat) stores =
energy (calorie) intake - energy expenditure


Is this what you're talking about? If so, I think it's an oversimplification. It works in a basic sense for cutting when you're expending more energy than you're taking in and your fat stores decrease. It doesn't seem to work for bulking, because this equation basically says that anything you eat and don't burn goes into fat stores. If this was the case, bodybuilders would never eat over maintenance and would never put on muscle.

cals in - cals out = weight gain or weight loss

this is the essential formula...everyting else that is a FACTOR is on either side of the equation

the important thing to understand is that a calorie can only leave your body as heat and kinetic energy

it cant just dump cals to lose weight because your insulin and blood sugar levels are well managed

and as far as bulking this is why most bb's end up gaining some fat because the extra cals MUST be stored and it's difficult to determine exactly how many cals you need

_8_Ball
07-08-2004, 12:19 PM
See the bottom of the post for some studies.

SalahG, I'm not being funny, but the effect of foods on blood glucose levels (and therefore on insulin release) is well-documented by research into diabetes. I've listed a dozen or so articles below, but there are literally hundreds if you care to look further. As I'm sure you're aware, insulin spikes are caused by a rapid rise in blood glucose levels, which is exactly what diabetics have to do when they have a hypoglycemic attack. So research into blood glucose levels is quite abundant.

Aside from all the studies, I'm a diabetic myself. I regularly have hypoglycemic episodes, and therefore I regularly have to raise my blood glucose level rapidly (by "regularly", I mean 3-4 times every week, which is maybe 1,000 times over the last five years). I have a lot of personal experience, and I have tried all sorts of food combinations to raise my blood glucose quickly. And fat and carbs was the worst combination I tried. It simply didn't hike my blood glucose level up quickly enough.

However, don't just take my word for it. You can prove all this yourself. Buy a blood glucose monitor - it'll not cost you much. Then you can eat a meal, test your BG at 5-minute intervals over the next 45 minutes or so, and graph the result. Insulin spikes are directly related to blood glucose, so if your BG spikes then you'll have an insulin spike. On an empty stomach, try this with a normal meal (i.e. carb, fat and protein), try it with a load of simple carbs, try it with complex carbs, and try it with carbs + fat. You'll be able to see personally what effect each meal has - no need to rely on me (or on the articles you found), you can prove them yourself.

If you still don't want to believe me, that's fine. You've had personal success your way, and that's great. I just want to make others aware of what I believe are some pretty compelling facts. If people want to avoid carbs + fats together, that's fine - just so long as they can make that kind of decision based on accurate facts.

By the way, if you want some studies or links on the subject, here are some non-scientific ones (i.e. anecdotal evidence):


This reply is in the top 3 most informative and helpfull replies I've read here in the last 2+ years...

I wish more poeple could post stuff like this, I believe we ALL learned a little something today...

Simply amazing...

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