Whats the difference between amino acids and Whey ?

[migs]

I know that whey is an extract from milk, whats the source of amino acids ?
In a single serving of whey offering 22g protein and a capsule of amino acids offering 2g does that mean that to get as much protein from capsules I need to take 11capsules ? Whats the difference in protein value between them ?

[TBone4Eva]

Amino acids are just the parts that make up protein. Think of protein as a tangled ball of yarn. When your body digest protein the stomach acid denatures the protein and uncoils that ball of yarn to make it easier for the enzymes. These enzymes then attach to specific points on the protein and break it down into the individual amino acids that make up the protein. The last I heard, whey was what's called a complete protein as it has all of the essential amino acids that your body can't manufacture on it's own. For this reason, many people believe it is simply a waste of money to buy the amino acids themselves as they tend to be much more expensive then if you just bought the whey and let your body take care of the rest.

Usually on the label it will give the breakdown of how much of each amino acid you should get per serving of whey. Compare that to the per serving in a bottle of amino acids. There is no difference in protein value as an amino acid is an amino acid. You do skip the step of having to digest the protein first before you can absorb the amino acids, but it is not really worth the extra cost.

[migs]

I know what amino acids are, I can give you their ultrastructure if you want, Im a 4th year med student ;)

My question was not addressing the meaning of the word or how protein is made, I looked at the label of whey protein and it says its made out of alot of amino acids regardless of their name and when I compared to the amino tablets they had the same with less quantity and a few extra, ornithine & carnitine (ON 100% whey and ON 2222 tablets). The tablet recommended servings is a tablet before each meal another before and after work out which would total up to 7-8 tablets a day : 16gm protein which is less than a single serving of whey. On the other hand you take no less than 2-3 servings of whey a day so that would be equal to 33 tablets, this doesnt really make sense though.

Are they perhaps absorbed faster than the whey ? Thus making them more potent ?

[TBone4Eva]

My bad migs, I saw the question in the title, "Whats the difference between amino acids and whey?" I didn't mean to imply that you didn't know what amino acids were.

I wouldn't say they would be more potent because an amino acid is an amino acid, regardless of source. As I mentioned, you do skip the step of having to breakdown the protein into the individual amino acids so I guess it would be absorbed quicker. As you can see, it takes a *****load of those tablets to equal what you would get with just whey, which gets pretty expensive.

I firmly believe it's just marketing hype. I believe you would be much better off if you just stick to whey after you finish that bottle of amino acids.

[migs]

I don't have the bottle of aminos, a friend of mine though was telling me that his trainer uses the amino tablets and he says that they are better than whey...I disagree with him though but then my friend was asking why they would put it on the market if their whey was superior to it which got me thinking that perhaps some of what he was saying could make sense. Then he mentioned that the ratio 1:11 was not right but when I checked it was pretty much the same content with higher doses.

Do you know that the ON tablets and capsules have different doses ? ON are really weird :S

[Holto]

ask your doctor...LOL

lots of the amino caps are WHEY...some are derived from soy

it's too bad med students aren't taught more nutrition

I had a lady ask me in a health food store where I worked for Iron Citrate

I told her it dosen't exist

she told me "well...my doctor told me to get it"

I laughed

[migs]

Unfortunately they don't teach us nutrition, they only teach you the structure of the elements and it all gets down to Carbon, Hydrogen and an extra element or 2 and their metabolism.

Sorry to burst your bubble there Holto but Iron Citrate does exist, look it up online :)

[Holto]

ahh I stand corrected

I wonder if it's available in Canada

where did you study migs?

I know some schools are starting to get into nutrition but in reality the average person wouldn't utilize nutrition advice anyway

[migs]

I study in Ain Shams university, you've prolly never heard about it before...It's in Egypt :D

Just finished my 4th yr today, freedom !!!

[Holto]

congrats buddy I'm sure you worked hard just to get there

best of luck in the future

[geoffgarcia]

I often fall to marketing hype, so don't blame me for posting this, I don't claim it for fact, but it might be interesting to some. I took if from the proteinfactory website.


Years of research have proven that supplementing with BCAA produces no benefits. If you have ever tried BCAA you've most likely noticed the same. However, through recent research and conjunction with a manufacturing company located in Germany,a NATURAL version of BCAA's is available. This is a huge step in BCAA supplementation and is dramatically different than the current synthetic versions of BCAA that plague the market today.

Branched Chain Amino Acids (BCAA's) have been marketed as bodybuilding aids since the 1980's. BCAA's come in several different versions, sold as powders, tablets, chewable wafers, and liquid versions. People taking BCAA's go on the theory that these essential amino acids are needed to build muscle, which they are. Thus by taking more BCAA's in an isolated form, and not from a whole food source such as whey or egg, they will have a better chance of growing muscle. The users of this product think the body will respond to the isolated free form amino acids better than whole foods because they are digested more quickly and more efficiently. Unfortunately to everyone's disappointment they produce zero results. After several research studies it has been proven that supplementing with BCAA's does NOT work. Thus, supplement companies have tried to make the BCAA work by playing with leucine, valine, and isoleucine in different ratio's hoping that they will work. They didn't work.

A non-synthetic version of the BCAA's offers greatly increased bioavailabilty because of its natural state. Thetamino's will actually have an increased impact on their own biosynthesis. One can almost compare it organic products. Take for example egg's. Egg's that are organic have a higher protein content, better AA profile, and higher EFA content. Thus, theoretically has a higher anabolic effect. Chickens that are subjected to artificial light, and grain produce eggs that are smaller, and less potent. Hence you have the Thetamino's. Mother Nature has specificallly laid out the correct sequence of Leucine, Valine, and isoleucine.

[migs]

Not true it just defies research, science, logic, experience, etc...

[AllUp]

I don't have the bottle of aminos, a friend of mine though was telling me that his trainer uses the amino tablets and he says that they are better than whey...
You can get the same results from a well balanced diet. I know a few vegetarians who are fans of the amino tablets as they supposedly contain some proteins they cant normally get from their diet (probably some in meats, milk and the like). I cant vouch their effectiveness in any way however, nor their contents - as I don't take them and personally prefer whole foods and the convenience of whey or casein blends in a pre-WO(whey) drink or shake before bed(casein or blend) situation. :)


I disagree with him though but then my friend was asking why they would put it on the market if their whey was superior to it which got me thinking that perhaps some of what he was saying could make sense.
Its a product, why not sell it? People would buy capsules full of dirt if it was marketed to give you this body <inserts image of hot chick and the big dude from this months muscle & fitness mag> :p


Some people prefer getting protein from whole foods.
Assuming a balanced diet you shouldn't need any "other" amino's and should be fine with food and a suplementary whey and/or casein blend.

I can only see taking the more expensive amino tablets if you eliminate a wide variety of foods from your diet(all meats, all veggies, etc.). Even then you're talking a few grams per tablet which is overall inferior to whey/casein in terms of supplementation amount.

[migs]

On the label its written that the source of the aminos is mainly whey. 10 tablets of 2g Aminos : one serving of whey ? Is that a correct ratio ?

[Holto]

one serving of whey should be at least 20g's of Amino's

so 1 protein shake = 100 tablets

[migs]

you mean 10 tablets ?

[migs]

I was just checking "Animal Nitro" and like all other universal products they know how to market their stuff, this is what they wrote about the difference between aminos and proteins:

Aminos vs. Protein

Over the years, words like "protein" and "amino acids" have been thrown together so much, they usually mean the same thing to a lot of guys. Protein? Aminos? What's the difference? Too bad, because an effective amino supplement can do things whole proteins can't. Now whole or intact protein from food and powders like whey, casein, egg or soy are made up of amino acids linked together by chemical bonds. In the small intestines, special enzymes get to breaking down the dietary proteins in smaller peptides and individual aminos. Whole proteins must first be broken down into these smaller peptides and individual aminos before they can be absorbed. Some measurements indicate that 70-80% of 15g of milk protein in a meal get absorbed in 3 hours.

While it takes a lot longer for it to get digested, dietary protein is important because it gives your body the basics building blocks it needs-a wide range of amino acids that can be used to restore amino acid levels in the body to help new tissue growth and regulate important bodily functions. For accomplishing these very basic functions, supplement wise, you can't beat protein powders. They're fairly cheap and effective. But think of protein in foods and shakes as gold ore. There's pure gold in the rock, but you've gotta get it out to be able to use it. You can definitely get it out, but it takes more time and work.

Protein powders are less efficient too. A lot of the aminos in protein powders get deaminated by the liver. In other words, you lose more aminos. In fact, if you eat too much protein, it can actually hurt your gains because of something called the Protein Paradox (see below). Individual amino acids, on the other hand, are like pure solid gold. Because individual aminos are quickly absorbed and assimilated, they're far more efficient. Like protein powders, individual amino acids can provide a source of dietary protein the body needs. More importantly, because they can more efficiently directly enter into systemic circulation, individual aminos offer additional benefits that we'll talk about shortly.

Animal Nitro's formula contains only individual amino acids, no whole proteins. Why? Individual amino acids can produce pharmacological and physiological effects such as anabolism, hormone regulation (growth hormone, insulin), immunomodulation, neurotransmitter function, and the like. Amino acids, in other words, have the ability to be more than just building blocks for the body. Unlike protein powders, aminos can exert certain anabolic and anti-catabolic effects and impact hormonal functions.

In the real world, what this means is that the right ratios, forms, and kinds of individual aminos can potentially increase strength, shorten recovery times, reduce fatigue, and increase lean mass in a way protein powders can't. So does all this mean if you're gonna use Animal Nitro, then you should stop taking your protein powder (actually, you could use Animal Nitro to replace your protein shake-it'd be better and more efficient, but it'd be more expensive too)? No. You should probably be doing both. In fact, if you're on a higher protein diet, then you should really consider taking Animal Nitro because of something called the Protein Paradox.

There are studies that argue that increasing protein intakes too much can actually hurt growth, not encourage it. This is the Protein Paradox. By eating more protein-rich foods and protein shakes, scientists believe this can actually reduce the availability of aminos in tissues due to wastage (catabolism). This reduction of aminos can then put the brakes on protein synthesis and, ultimately, weight gain. For example, drinking a lot of whey protein shakes may give you a lot of BCAAs, but with high protein diets, these BCAAs can be quickly catabolized. Over the long run, researchers speculate that high protein diets can lead to metabolic imbalances, deficiencies of key amino acids in the body, and suppress protein synthesis.

So while higher protein diets are important for bodybuilders, there are diminishing returns as you increase your intake-you get less and less value back from each gram of protein. More importantly, beyond a certain point, too much protein can actually have a negative effect by making it harder to gain size as more and more aminos are lost to catabolism. The Protein Paradox can affect the bodybuilder who's getting a large percentage of his calories from protein. Since you're not going to know when you hit the point where you're taking in too much protein, you should supplement with the fast-acting amino Animal Nitro just in case. Animal Nitro can continue delivering important amino acids.

"Uncoupled" Aminos

Animal Nitro contains only individual or "uncoupled" aminos. You're not going to find protein powder filled into capsules. No way. We use uncoupled aminos for a couple of different reasons. A lot of important research has shown that uncoupled amino acids are more quickly absorbed in the GI tract than protein in whole foods and supplements. As these uncoupled aminos don't need to be digested, they should ideally be taken when rapid absorption is critical, when certain pharmacological effects are desired, or when individuals are on higher protein diets. They can also help lifters who are cutting and bulking.

But uncoupled aminos are different in a more fundamental way. They can actually bypass the liver (where aminos are usually deaminated and ultimately converted to urea) and enter systemic circulation. When this happens, the pharmacological benefits can be realized. Here's how it works. When you eat a steak or drink a protein shake, the aminos get caught up and processed in the liver. Uncoupled amino acids, on the other hand, have the ability actually bypass the liver. Once ingested, uncoupled aminos can form a "bolus"-think of this as a therapeutic mass of aminos.

Due to this protective bolus, when the uncoupled aminos reach the liver, they can escape the liver's processing. In other words, these aminos can enter into systemic circulation quickly and reach their target areas to exert the pharmacological and physiological effects. Tableted amino acid supplements or protein powders, because they take longer to digest, are catabolized to urea a greater degree by the liver. That's why Animal Nitro contains only uncoupled amino acids in quick-dissolving capsules. Tableting would defeat the purpose of this particular product.

Additionally, only with free "uncoupled" aminos can you precisely complex and formulate the right kinds of aminos, in the right ratios. It's not just a matter of throwing uncoupled aminos in there. You have to also choose the right aminos and in the right amounts relative to the other aminos. The only real downsides to uncoupled aminos are their price (very expensive) and their taste (not so good). This takes us to a discussion of essential amino acids versus non-essential amino acids.

Any comments ?

[migs]

Study about ingestion of oral essential amino acids post workout and their effect.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10198297

Another one talking about oral EAAs effects on recovery

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12217881

This is an article that converses what the one above says:

Facts and fallacies of purported ergogenic amino acid supplements.

Williams MH.

Department of Exercise Science, Physical Education, and Recreation, Old Dominion University, Norfolk, Virginia, USA. mwilliam@odu.edu

Although current research suggests that individuals involved in either high-intensity resistance or endurance exercise may have an increased need for dietary protein, the available research is either equivocal or negative relative to the ergogenic effects of supplementation with individual amino acids. Although some research suggests that the induction of hyperaminoacidemia via intravenous infusion of a balanced amino acid mixture may induce an increased muscle protein synthesis after exercise, no data support the finding that oral supplementation with amino acids, in contrast to dietary protein, as the source of amino acids is more effective. Some well-controlled studies suggest that aspartate salt supplementation may enhance endurance performance, but other studies do not, meriting additional research. Current data, including results for several well-controlled studies, indicated that supplementation with arginine, ornithine, or lysine, either separately or in combination, does not enhance the effect of exercise stimulation on either hGH or various measures of muscular strength or power in experienced weightlifters. Plasma levels of BCAA and tryptophan may play important roles in the cause of central fatigue during exercise, but the effects of BCAA or tryptophan supplementation do not seem to be effective ergogenics for endurance exercise performance, particularly when compared with carbohydrate supplementation, a more natural choice. Although glutamine supplementation may increase plasma glutamine levels, its effect on enhancement of the immune system and prevention of adverse effects of the overtraining syndrome are equivocal. Glycine, a precursor for creatine, does not seem to possess the ergogenic potential of creatine supplementation. Research with metabolic by-products of amino acid metabolism is in its infancy, and current research findings are equivocal relative to ergogenic applications. In general, physically active individuals are advised to obtain necessary amino acids through consumption of natural, high-quality protein foods.

this links from another thread on a different forum, will post more info on this article later.