best way to a hard VERY lean 200lbs

[chris6969]

I hate that you cant really gain size and strength and diet(get really lean) at the same time.

Its a choice you have to make....
1 - lose some strength and size to get lean (lucky if you can maintain strength)
or
2 - bulk up to gain strength and size

Ideally I would like to be about 190lbs 8-10% BF.
If I had to guess right now... I'd say I'm probably about 14% BF at 188lbs. (I've already lost about 8lbs dieting with cardio) I'm probably going to be doing a Tren only cycle while dieting to see if it will get me closer to my goal.

I know if I did 2-3 cycles in a row right now, I'd be 220lb+ and then after dieting I could be 190lbs, but I dont want to blow up again. (and probably outgrow all my clothes!) I also dont like moonface which I am VERY prone to. (my face and double chin explode with test!)

So do you all think Tren is the best way to my goal or should I just say f__k it and blow up then get ripped up?

[BCC]

You can gain size, strength, and diet at the same time. It just takes a lot of drugs and a fine tuned diet :)

I would use some test and tren instead of just blowing up.

[chris6969]

You can gain size, strength, and diet at the same time. It just takes a lot of drugs and a fine tuned diet :)

I would use some test and tren instead of just blowing up.

Well, I didnt want to do A LOT of drugs. I try to minimize the drugs I use, so most of my gains are as natural as possible so I can maintain the gains (easily), also.

I've got the Tren & clomid ready, I might add test in there at 500mg/week. Still debating on that. I just want "quality more than quantity"

[SirTest2004]

according to people i know that have used it,the test they used with tren at a moderate/low dosage like 500mg didnt give them gains like it does alone or with somethin like dbol...no idea why or if itz true...but itz wot i heard so dont quote me!

[tony touch]

whats the diet look like....trust me on this, setting up a supplement and workout plan is the easy part...setting up the correct diet and sticking to it, is the hard part and the one you should concentrate on the most

[chris6969]

low fat diet - also taking Hydroxycut

started at about 195lbs 2 weeks ago down to about 188lbs already.

Ex today:
breafast: fatfree yogurt, grapefruit juice, 1 hydroxycut
snack: mountain dew, proteinbar 1 hydroxycut
lunch : proteinbar
dinner: will probably have 2-3 chicken breasts with pasta & fatfree cheese on top of both, maybe a salad also with fatfree feta cheese and fat free dressing.

when I start the Tren, I will up the protein intake. Also I'm not sore today coming off a breakday so my intake is a little low today.

[chris6969]

upping the cardio also from 2-3 exercise bike/week

to joggingx2 and bikex1 /week

jogging = lot more intense and gets me leaner quicker than bike

[the doc]

test + anti - e regimen for minimal water retention and estrogen related fat gain?

i know people rave about tren, but other will testify to its harshness

[Gabrielle]

diet..man...strict diet...there a lot of vets on various boards..that never get above 12%

[PUNK]

Run susp/prop/tren at 100 mg each per day. You will gain good size and cut the fat right off you.

[ryuage]

would anyone not recommend tren for a first cycle? :)

[PUNK]

Was not aware this was his first cycle. No I would not reccomend tren.

[gino]

It doesn't matter (much) what you do for gear if your diet is in check. I stay ripped on d-bol and test because I eat right.

[chris6969]

Was not aware this was his first cycle. No I would not reccomend tren.

It would be my 4-5th cycle I guess. I did 2 short 6 week test cyles (only consider it 1 cycle) like 10 years ago... and then 2 - 11 week cycles (1 test, 1 test + win) a little over 2 years ago now. I also did HGH recently to help me recover my leg a little bit more. After 12 weeks on HGH I can jog again, before I could never work out my leg hard enough b/c my knee (petella tendon) would kill me. I think I'm about 95% recovered now, and it feels great.

I normally eat anything in sight. However, I just started dieting about 2 weeks ago and I've already lost about 8lbs. I'm going to cut down naturally right now. And I'm still not even 100% sure Im going to do Tren. I'm just getting the clomid & Tren for when I feel I need the extra rippage. However, it may just sit in the carts never converted.

[WillKuenzel]

I think you need to take a good long look at your diet. Read a bit more through the diet and nutrition section. To be cutting, you are still eating quite a bit sugar and fructose. Normally (although it doesn't have to be this way) its easier to cut on low carb, high fat (good fat). When bulking, I do low fat, more carbs but cutting its the opposite.

[chris6969]

I know some people like to cut out the carbs. I've been able to lose fat in the past just cutting out the fat and doing cardio & jogging. Though this time I'm going to try to get extremely ripped for the first time since I was scrawny @ 130lb & 6'0" about 12 years ago.

My diet is working, I know if I cut out the sugars I would lose faster. But I like the energy that I get from the sugars in my diet. And as long as I'm still making progress I wont cut the refined sugars out.

I think either diet works. Low fat or low carb. The great thing about low carb diets is that you're losing fat all the time even when you're not working out b/c your body resorts to using body fat since it has no easy to use sugars. Though unless you plan on making a permanent life style (eating) change forever you put the weight back on quickly when you start eating carbs again.

But a very low fat diet with aerobic exercise also works, but is usually slower. I think it will be a more permanent way for me to stay lean. I can eat low fat forever if I wanted, I dont think I could eat low carb forever.

[WillKuenzel]

The weight put back on from eating carbs after being on a low carb diet is glycogen being replinished. There is not difference in fat being lost from low carbs than fat being lost from low fat. Its all in how you start to eat post diet.

Like you said, either works, to a certain extent. Just cutting calories initially will be enough. After that, it will take a bit more.


I was on a low carb diet last year for my competition. Not until very recently when I let my diet go to complete **** did I gain back most of the fat I had lost and I was bulking very hard even prior to that. Weight gained is weight gained, regardless of how you lost it.

[tony touch]

take this strictly as constructive criticism because the last thing i would want u to think is that im flaming u.....

to put it bluntly, that is a ****ing horrible diet...whether ur bulking, maintaining or cutting.......u would see amazing results without anabolics if u just got on the right diet.

u say u love the way sugar makes u feel (energy)....are you looking for results or sense of well being? when my diet is "on", it has nothing to do with enjoying my food or feeling too sluggish or not enough energy......its purely about results.

3 things that absolutely jump off the page: ur diet is loaded with sugar, no fats, and barely enough protein to support my 80 yrs old grandma. thats the worst possible cutting diet i can imagine

[BCC]

take this strictly as constructive criticism because the last thing i would want u to think is that im flaming u.....

to put it bluntly, that is a ****ing horrible diet...whether ur bulking, maintaining or cutting.......u would see amazing results without anabolics if u just got on the right diet.

u say u love the way sugar makes u feel (energy)....are you looking for results or sense of well being? when my diet is "on", it has nothing to do with enjoying my food or feeling too sluggish or not enough energy......its purely about results.

3 things that absolutely jump off the page: ur diet is loaded with sugar, no fats, and barely enough protein to support my 80 yrs old grandma. thats the worst possible cutting diet i can imagine

I agree with that

[chris6969]

take this strictly as constructive criticism because the last thing i would want u to think is that im flaming u.....

to put it bluntly, that is a ****ing horrible diet...whether ur bulking, maintaining or cutting.......u would see amazing results without anabolics if u just got on the right diet.

u say u love the way sugar makes u feel (energy)....are you looking for results or sense of well being? when my diet is "on", it has nothing to do with enjoying my food or feeling too sluggish or not enough energy......its purely about results.

3 things that absolutely jump off the page: ur diet is loaded with sugar, no fats, and barely enough protein to support my 80 yrs old grandma. thats the worst possible cutting diet i can imagine

No, I can take the criticism - flame away! :)

That day (monday) I ate light b/c I didnt work out Sunday or Monday. I adjust my diet according to my activity level and soreness level. LIke yesterday I had a salad with olive salad for some good fat (olive oil) & energy for chest & tricep work out yesterday. Today I'm sore and Im eating a lot of protein. Each protein bar I eat is like 31-33g protein, and I eat 2 on an average day and 3 on sore days, plus my other intake like chicken breast, lean ham & turkey sandwiches, etc.

I am trying to cut so I have cut back my total # of calories along with as fat free as possible. I also dont train balls to wall quite like you do Tony which burns a lot of calories. I do heavy sets, low reps and only 3-5 exercises on my work out days.

Here's a picture of me from yesterday. http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showpost.php?p=837913&postcount=3

I'll post a new one in about a month and another 1 month after that. Technically this should probably just be in the BB/fitness forum... not anabolics! B/c everyone in here wants to get HUGE. Where I think Im at the point I just want to refine my muscle a little more and not get much bigger. But I am probably going to take some Tren to aid in my dieting.

I'm going to diet from now until about Labor day. approx5 weeks, then take tren for 4-8 weeks depending on results & sides. I have clomid on hand.

[WillKuenzel]

Do you even know how many calories you are eating or are you just going by portion size? How many grams of protein are you eating? If you aren't tracking it, I can bet its a lot less than you think.

[Hatred]

Yowzers...here's a bucket of water to douse those flames with......
Just kidding....I agree With Tony..

[gino]

The key is knowing your macronutrient ratios and adjusting those to reach your goals. You'll lose weight with a caloric deficit, regardless of where those calories come from, but you'll lose a better ratio of fat to muscle if you adjust properly. Dietary fat will help preserve muscle, while carb restriction will help promote fat utilization for energy.(it's more complicated than that, with more variables, but that's the place to start) Losing 8 lbs in the first couple weeks of dieting is a result of a significant reduction in water retention, not fat loss.

[chris6969]

I know my first 8lbs is probably 6-7lbs water, 1-2 lbs fat.

I dont count my protein/calories everyday. I've counted quite a few times and I eat almost the same group of items. (my diet doesnt vary a lot)

Monday I only had about 180g protein, <2500 calories total
Today I'm on track to have about 250g protein, approx same # of calories. I've had approx 100g of protein up to lunch, then dinner I eat quite a bit and will have a protein shake before bed.

[tony touch]

u need more meals, smaller portions, double ur protein intake (minimum!!), cut ur carbs down to about a fourth of what ur at right now, start eating a tablespoon or 2 of olive oil with each meal, minimum 30-40 grams of protein per meal, cut it out with this fat free bull**** (the only time fats should b limited is pre and postworkout)

you might be losing weight right now but all thats gonna happen is you're gonna lose muscle and get skinnier and fatter. DONT YA WANNA B DENSE AND STRONG? LOL bump your calories up and keep it very high protein, moderate fats (lots of olive oil....itll help u burn fat!), and cut those damn carbs! you eat waaaayyyy too many carbs all day instead of timing ur nutrients. even if you only lose 5 lbs instead of 20 lbs, youll look like you had a total body transformation if ya include the anabolics with this diet.

EAT MORE MEAT.....ONE MORE TIME....MEAT MEAT MEAT MEAT

[CB]

Meat is the treat that can't be beat!

[Maki Riddington]

Lol. True dat!

[chris6969]

ok Tony, I will put more olive oil in my diet and try to cut the carbs down. I hear ya. I know what you're saying is the best way, I was just trying to do it my way... which might have been a little bit slower.

[Shao-LiN]

Sort of a fine line you draw for "as natural as possible". You either are or you aren't in my opinion.

[tony touch]

hey chris, its 2 am and im eating 5 chicken breasts before i go to bed....thought id share!LOL


"its 2 am, do u kno where ur children are?"