Muscle soreness

[Laertes]

I'm new here, in my late 20's, been lifting for 10 years or so, in good shape, etc., but for the first time, really making an effort to put on some (lean) mass. (Although lots of people think I'm on the verge of being too big, I disagree).

I've been reading stuff on these forums and decided I should cut the number of sets I do. Which I did. So yesterday, I did an arm work-out. I did six sets for biceps; six sets for tris. My biceps had a massive pump, and I was feeling good.

But this morning, no bicep, or any arm, soreness. My chest, even after 10 years of weight training, still is typically sore the next day. I'm hit and miss with my arms in terms of soreness, but I thought for sure, after having this wicked pump, that I would be sore. So here are my questions:

1) Is muscle soreness an accurate barometer of how well the workout is working for me? In other words, should I now switch my arm routine around, 'cause the lack of muscle soreness indicates the workout is not working for me?

2) Can you make good progress without ever being sore the next day, and simply feeling really pumped right after the workout?

3) If I should change my routine, should I bump my number of sets back up? (Like I said, that whole delayed soreness thing, for my arms anyway, seems only to happen when I first try a routine. If I do the same routine the next week--nothing.)

By the way, my goal is to put on 10 lbs of mass, which may not seem like a lot, but I'm a short short guy, and 10 lbs would probably be huge.

Thanks.

[gopro]

Laertes...welcome. In my opinion, muscle soreness is not the end all or be all measurement of a workouts success. Perhaps by cutting back on your sets you effectively increased your recovery ability and therefore felt less soreness. Remember we must recover in order to grow.While I am a believer in changing training routines often,I am a low set advocate in general. Not Mentzer 1 set-to-failure low, but lower than most. I believe that a weight training workout should not take more than an hour or you will put yourself too far into a catabolic state. Give this routine a chance for a few weeks, than try something else.Although others on this board will disagree, try to vary some aspect of your training every few weeks to keep it fresh, both mentally and physically.However, try to keep your workouts to an hour or less.

[Tryska]

what gopro said, for the most part.

DOMS is NOT and inidactor that you have had a good workout. progression is. and hey...maybe you'll get sore tomorrow instead. mine doesn't usually kick in for 48 hours. (or 4 days apparently, when i'm carb depleted)

[Paul Stagg]

I'm new here, in my late 20's, been lifting for 10 years or so, in good shape, etc., but for the first time, really making an effort to put on some (lean) mass. (Although lots of people think I'm on the verge of being too big, I disagree).

** Welcome.

I've been reading stuff on these forums and decided I should cut the number of sets I do. Which I did. So yesterday, I did an arm work-out. I did six sets for biceps; six sets for tris. My biceps had a massive pump, and I was feeling good.

** OK. The pump, while a good feeling, isn't really an indicator of effectiveness.

But this morning, no bicep, or any arm, soreness. My chest, even after 10 years of weight training, still is typically sore the next day. I'm hit and miss with my arms in terms of soreness, but I thought for sure, after having this wicked pump, that I would be sore. So here are my questions:

1) Is muscle soreness an accurate barometer of how well the workout is working for me? In other words, should I now switch my arm routine around, 'cause the lack of muscle soreness indicates the workout is not working for me?

** Absolutely not. As gopro and Tryska indicate, soreness is not an indicator of muscle growth. As far as changing things around, my suggestion is to change your routine for the following reasons:

Stalled progression
Change in goals
Boredom

2) Can you make good progress without ever being sore the next day, and simply feeling really pumped right after the workout?

** Yep.

3) If I should change my routine, should I bump my number of sets back up? (Like I said, that whole delayed soreness thing, for my arms anyway, seems only to happen when I first try a routine. If I do the same routine the next week--nothing.)

** Measure your progress via the amount of weight on the bar, the number of reps you do, and measurements. Feelings are not accurate barometers... what is 'more sore', for example?

By the way, my goal is to put on 10 lbs of mass, which may not seem like a lot, but I'm a short short guy, and 10 lbs would probably be huge.

** Good goal to have. Consider all of the factors in muscle growth. Your routine is just one.

[Reinier]

i did some pretty serious leg presses yesterday (hahahaha leg press!!!) anyway im sore like shiat

[Fart Barker]

Originally posted by Paul Stagg
Is muscle soreness an accurate barometer of how well the workout is working for me? In other words, should I now switch my arm routine around, 'cause the lack of muscle soreness indicates the workout is not working for me?

** Absolutely not. As gopro and Tryska indicate, soreness is not an indicator of muscle growth.

I've always thought that in order for muscle to grow it needs to be damaged kind of like when you cut your skin and a scar forms. If you feel no muscle soreness how can you be sure that cell damage has occurred?

[syntekz]

They say that muscle damage isn't a good factor because muscle soreness is caued by more than just fiber damage.

[Laertes]

Syntekz, could you elaborate on that. I always used to believe what Barker before you just said. What is soreness caused by than if it's more than just fiber damage?

[Tryska]

no one is quite sure what causes DOMS....it could be microtrauma, it could be macrophages (although that's more cardio-related), it could be cal/mag imbalance it could be anything...it's not pinned down that microtears in your muscle cause DOMS.

for instance....i can lift heavy, and not experience any DOMS that week. I then go back to the gym and lift a little more weight on those same exercises the next week. Did that mean because i didn't get sore, i didn't accomplish anything the week before? you know what i'm saying? DOMS isn't an accurate indicator of growth. Progress is. (to quote paul, really)

[Fart Barker]

Originally posted by Tryska
for instance....i can lift heavy, and not experience any DOMS that week. I then go back to the gym and lift a little more weight on those same exercises the next week.

central nervous system? not necessarily muscle growth

[Tryska]

possibly so. point is, i've progressed, and that's my goal, you know? i wouldn't use muscle soreness as a judge of whether i'm prgressing or not, specifically because of the neural adaptation factor, and other things....

[syntekz]

Nothing really has been 'proven' yet. But, personally I like being sore. I workout in hopes of being sore and I use soreness as indicator that I must have done something correctly.

...

[Fart Barker]

Originally posted by syntekz
I like being sore

me too, it's almost orgasmic :drooling:

[Tryska]

agreed, mr. barker.

[Paul Stagg]

Soreness doesn't necessarily mean there is damage, nor does it mean if there is damage that it is going to result in growth.

[The_Chicken_Daddy]

I had the best leg workout of my life last night and i have no feeling of soreness anywhere.

[Fart Barker]

Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
I had the best leg workout of my life last night and i have no feeling of soreness anywhere.

keep us posted ;)

[gopro]

Just remember boys and girls that although we love to be sore, that too much may be a negative. Like you know, we grow when we are recovered, and too much soreness may mean that you are not taking the proper nutritional and/or supplementational steps to foster your recovery. We also need to recover both systemically and locally(as in the muscle that has been trained).

Training is the stimulus...food, rest, sleep, and supplements are the builders.

[LiftAgain]

Originally posted by Fart Barker


I've always thought that in order for muscle to grow it needs to be damaged kind of like when you cut your skin and a scar forms. If you feel no muscle soreness how can you be sure that cell damage has occurred?

When you do any activity that wears the skin you skin adapts by becoming thicker and harder.
If you damage your skin by doing too much it will take a lot longer to heal,can be painful and forms scar tissue.

Also with muscles you want them to get stronger and thicker, not damage them and get them full of scar tissue.