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The_Chicken_Daddy
10-31-2001, 03:30 AM
Ok, i've been eating low GI foods for the past three weeks on this diet wihout cheating except for last night where i had some of the cakes i made. The insulin rush definately hit me cause i had a hard time getting to sleep last night and when i woke i felt lazy [could be due to other factors but anyway...]

So, on Ketosis diets, the muscles become insulin sensitive so that come the carb up, you go into anabolic overdrive, replacing any muscle lost during the week in ketosis.

here's my thinking: you train mon, tues and thurs heavy doing your normal routine and eating low GI food [like oatmeal] and isolate post training. All other carbs sources you eat are also low GI.

The on saturday, you train full body going for a pump - no heavy training. light weights, higher reps. A bit like a depletion workout. Post train your muscles [in my theory] should be quite insulin sensitive due to your insulin not really being elevated too high because all week you've been consuming low GI foods. At this point after training, you intake say, 100g dextrose [extra dextrose than usual because you've done your whole body] with say 5-10g creatine and some isolate. The you eat every hour or so after that for 2-3 hours [more complex proteins and low GI carbs]

Now my question, could this cause a similar anabolic overdrive that occurs in ketosis carb up days?

On the light weight days you're not exactly breaking down muscle or impeding growth right? so this high GI day could help?

Please point out any flaws with this theory. I've only been thinking about it since this morning so it really is early days.

thanks.

The_Chicken_Daddy
10-31-2001, 04:23 AM
Btw, the reason for the light workout is to just ensure that the majority of the nutrients you consume will go to the muscles.

YatesNightBlade
10-31-2001, 04:35 AM
Interesting theory.

I can't tell you if it would work or not. Maybe someone else can with comments for and against.

One thing I can say is ... how much insulin do you think your bodys gonna produce and do you think it gonna be enough to have an effect on ALL bodyparts ?

A low Carb day high Carb day could be a alternative.

beercan
10-31-2001, 05:45 AM
Try it...it may work....Yates has a point tho, why not save your lagging part for that day, or just eat like that on the normal day you'd train that bodypart...

The_Chicken_Daddy
10-31-2001, 05:54 AM
Originally posted by YatesNightBlade
how much insulin do you think your bodys gonna produce and do you think it gonna be enough to have an effect on ALL bodyparts ?

Well on a ketosis diet, the carb up usually effects all muscle groups so i was just going on that assumption.

YatesNightBlade
10-31-2001, 06:02 AM
Your not gonna deplete all muscle groups on a low GI diet. Your Gylcogen stores are still going to get filled.

The_Chicken_Daddy
10-31-2001, 06:04 AM
that's true, hence, why you slightly deplete them with the light workout, which also gets the blood going to those parts so when you eat that's where the nutrients are gonna go.

by eating low GI carbs and complex protein every 2-3 hours ater wards will still keep the insulin levels active right?

YatesNightBlade
10-31-2001, 06:48 AM
Yes but insulin secretion will be low due to Blood sugar being low.

Carb loading and Carb depleting may interest you CD.

The_Chicken_Daddy
10-31-2001, 06:52 AM
Another thing, the light workout will be performed on a saturday morning after eating say a banana for liver glycogen] and some whey [for protein].

you do the semi-depletion and then straight away consume the high GI.

"Yes but insulin secretion will be low due to Blood sugar being low."

Can you explain this a bot more for me please Dan?

YatesNightBlade
10-31-2001, 07:01 AM
*sigh* Was there some sarcasm in your voice then ?

The functions of insulin are:

To enable glucose to be transported across cell membranes
To convert glucose into glycogen for storage in the liver and muscles
To help excess glucose be converted into fat
To prevent protein breakdown for energy

Insulin is a simple protein in which two polypeptide chains of amino acids are joined by disulfide linkages. Insulin helps transfer glucose into cells so that they can oxidize the glucose to produce energy for the body. In adipose (fat) tissue, insulin facilitates the storage of glucose and its conversion to fatty acids. Insulin also slows the breakdown of fatty acids. In muscle it promotes the uptake of amino acids for making proteins. In the liver it helps convert glucose into glycogen (the storage carbohydrate of animals) and it decreases gluconeogenesis (the formation of glucose from noncarbohydrate sources). The action of insulin is opposed by glucagon, another pancreatic hormone, and by epinephrine.

The Higher your Blood sugar the greater the amount of insulin required ...... for blood sugar balance.

Basicly, if you having LOW GI carbs all the time ... your blood suagar levels are gonna be low thus keeping Insulin levels to the minimum.

Tryska
10-31-2001, 08:01 AM
well said yates.

ok..my confusion comes in with this low-gi carbs allt he time thing. No matter what the GI, eating carbs is still going to release insulin (albeit more slowly). The reason insulin sensitivity increases when you are on a keto or low-carb type diet, is because those receptors just plain get a break from insulin while you are eating "for glucagon" as it were. So i guess i'm having trouble seeing why a diet that consists of Low-GI carbs would work int he same way a keto would. Or am i missing the point?

the doc
10-31-2001, 08:08 AM
i agree tryska- curious to see what he means

The_Chicken_Daddy
10-31-2001, 09:16 AM
Firstly, no sarcasm - genuine question.


Originally posted by YatesNightBlade
Basicly, if you having LOW GI carbs all the time ... your blood suagar levels are gonna be low thus keeping Insulin levels to the minimum.

right, so when you take in the high GI post train on the saturday the anabolic conditions [comparable to the ketosis ones] are met right?

And Tina, it's just a theory that i had this morning. It's been in the pipeline for a whole 7 hours hours now haha... And it was derrived from my cheat last night.

Tryska
10-31-2001, 09:35 AM
okay.....umm...no. The point is, even with low-gi carbs...you are still gonna get an insulin response, it will just be slower and more drawn out, so if you all of a sudden give yourself a high GI carb, your not gonna get the anabolic response you would get if you were on Keto.

Simply put, keto keeps insulin out of your bloodstream for the most part, because you are eating for glucagon. This is why, when you do give yourself carbs, your receptors are so sensitive and you get that anabolic boost. Eating low-gi carbs just keeps your receptors from being flooded by insulin, but they are still in contact with, so any anabolic action would be blunted.

The_Chicken_Daddy
10-31-2001, 09:51 AM
so the fact that a] you haven't really elevated insulin levels since the saturday before and b] that it's been about 10-12 hours since your last 'proper' meal don't really matter?

Tryska
10-31-2001, 09:54 AM
everytime you eat a carb, your elevating insulin levels to some degree, whether it's low or high GI. The low blood sugar from not eating would actually have a bigger impact on causing an insulin spike (which i think is what you are going for) then anything else.

The_Chicken_Daddy
10-31-2001, 09:56 AM
Exactly, so is that not like shooting 2 cc's of 'slin post workout?! :)

seriously, would that not cause the 'anabolic overdrive'?

Tryska
10-31-2001, 10:05 AM
well....from being on a low-carb diet, and experiencing an "anabolic overdrive" (just yesterday as a matter of fact, when i decided to eat some pure sugar halloween candy and breaking out in a sweat from it), I don't think so. You might get a "power surge", but in order to get the spike your looking for naturally, you would have to get rid of most of the carbs altogether (keep them coming from dairy, fruit and veggies) for a couple of weeks, and then try some sugar. Your receptors are gonna be blunted from the steady intake of low-gi carbs...and won't give quite the charge your looking for, otherwise.

YatesNightBlade
11-01-2001, 02:26 AM
Buy some Drugs CD.

The_Chicken_Daddy
11-01-2001, 02:42 AM
Oh yeah, at my age they'd go down a treat...

Wizard
11-01-2001, 08:22 AM
What I've been doing the last two weeks works amazing for me and I can suggest it 2 u 2.It's the carb cycling method which has been considered to be effective for the majority of those who have tried it.

My plan is:
Sunday,Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday=high protein, low carbs(with ~20%fat,no more)
Thursday, Friday, Saturday=higher carbs, moderate protein(keep the fat low.Maybe 1tbsp of EFAs could fit perfectly in here)

The idea behind carb cycling is that you starve the body of glycogen to burn fat in the beginning of the week.Then you increase your carb intake moderately to feed your muscles during the end of the week.

You obviously keep some 'slin flowing while you're on low blood sugar levels,but a small amount won't stop fat loss.Anyway,the most important factor is still to consume less cals than you burn.

the doc
11-01-2001, 09:08 AM
wiz, that's the type of diet i've been following as well for 1 month now. Low carbs (30-60g) and high protein, mod fat for 3-4 days. 1(-2) high carbs meal(s) 100-200 g on the last day of the cycle and then begin anew (this is more or less the NHE type eating plan). not quite keto yet very effective at controlling appetite (something i ALWAYS had a problem with using high carb - very low fat eating).
And you still get a strong insulin rush during the carb up (also keeps workouts from suffering)