Are Deadlifts necessary?

[Darcy Tucker]

What I mean is will I get as good of results with my back development if I take them out. As you guys probably know I cannot do these right. My shins get cut up and i simply feel like something is wrong when I do them.

I do heavy squats on leg day and my back day looks like this....

all back exercises are two sets of 8,6

-weighted pull ups
-t bar rows
-close grip pull downs (instead of deadlifts)
-shrugs

Chris I know you will say I don't need deadlifts but please tell me why. Thanks.

[Budiak]

You'll develop your back, but your lower back will get increasingly...umm...not as big as the rest of it. Deads are "primarily" a lower back exercise and I do them partially so my lower back wont give out when I'm doing standing rows and other exercises that may injure me.
Never poo-poo your lower back, because it will s### all over you.

Beeesssiiides..when you pose and you get that little "christmas tree" formation down there, it will all make sense.

[Joe Black]

I would try and do them.

Yes they work the lower back, but also work the legs and traps, forearms and more..

IMO they are a must..

Why can you not do them ?

I hear people say they cut up the shins, but how ? I can do them just fine. Nice and slow, close to the shins but ensure they don't hit your shins...

Are you tall ?

Even so you should still be able to do them by experimenting with wider/narrower grips and leg stances.....

[Pup]

Darcy,
I will tell you from personal experience that deadlifts are very beneficial. They strengthen your lower back very well. If you do sldl's you will see where this point comes into play. They aren't an absolute necessity, but unless you have some health condition that prevents you from doing them i would advise that you do them.

[Darcy Tucker]

The reason I don't like to do deads besides my shins since that can be solved with shin pads is that once I get into challenging weight I can't be sure my form is still good. When I'm doing challenging weight my butt tends to not go down and I'm not sure but my back might slightly curve. it's easy to get squat form perfect but deads are a different story. basically I'm afraid to screw up my back. The way I see it is that I'm not doing deadlifts for my legs or my traps just the back and my routine is fine for upper back and I think barbell rows and squats are sufficient for my lower back. Would't you agree?

[Adam]

If you want something for your lower back try goodmornings.
And about the bar cutting up your shins, if your in a gym try swithcing it with another bar. One at my gym cuts my shins to peices while the other one only makes them red.

[The_Chicken_Daddy]

do sumo style deads.

[The_Chicken_Daddy]

also, if you don't do your lower back, but continue your upper back routine, it will lead to muscle imbalance which will lead to injury.

And besides, a well developed lower back looks cool...

[Chris Rodgers]

I said it before and I'll say it again......Pansy!!!!!!!


I love deads. I love the way they hit so many muscles in my back and legs. I love the way they help strengthen my grip. I love adding weight to them. I loove that after a set, I get dizzy and need to rest for a few minutes. Yeah the deads scrape the **** out of my shins and sometimes make me bleed. I don't care. If they help me develop my strength and my body then I'm going to keep doing them and keep on getting stronger.


Btw-If you are going to do pullups, don't do the sissy pulldowns. Like someone suggested, replace them with good mornings or hyperextensions.

[Darcy Tucker]

Pansy my @ss!!!

I just don't want to screw up my back. By the way I do sumo style. I want to here what Chris has to say because he seems to feel the same way about deadlifts as I do.

[The_Chicken_Daddy]

well if you are doing sumo deads then go to conventional deads and see if they make a difference.

[chris mason]

The debate rages on! Darcy, you don't NEED to do them. Myself and my friends (we weigh between 190 lbs and 310 lbs) very rarely do them and are quite big and strong thank you! If you squat, you will train the muscles of the lower body as well as your spinal erectors. Your lower back will get sufficient stimulation from squats so that it will not be a weak point. Deadlifts do very little for the lats which are the bulk of the upper back. They do train your traps, but you can hit them quite well with shrugs. For your forearms, you will stimulate them plenty with any upper back movement and curls. For all of you naysayers out there, I have a thought. Anyone who can squat with a lot of weight will be a competent deadlifter, but the same is not true in reverse. In other words, if you deadlift, but do not squat, you will not necessarily be able to handle respectable poundages in the squat. However, if you only squat and can do so with good poundages, you will also have a respectable deadlift. I think the previous statements say something as to which is the "superior" exercise. Like I have said before, the squat works the legs and glutes to a much greater degree than the deadlift and those muslces are the largest in the body. The muscles that the deadlift targets and squats do not, are worked intensely in a normal weightlifting routine anyway. I think that one should do deadlifts if they plan to powerlift, but not necessarily otherwise.

[The Cobra]

Well by god, Chris. I'm gonna agree with you 100%. Not 99.99%, one-hundred percent! So whaddaya think of that? *wink*

[Darcy Tucker]

Agreed Chris! The only problem with not doing them is the lower back and squats solve that.

[chris mason]

This is the big one, oh Lord, I'm coming to you!

[Chris Rodgers]

Very good post Chris.


I still love Deads!;)

[The_Chicken_Daddy]

Originally posted by LATMAN
I still love Deads!;)


Deads all the way baby!...

[gary]

I think one must be doing some form of deadlift, SLDL or BLDL. Simply because its very simple and efficient for building mass.

Squat
SLDL
Bench Press
Chin

Rest for a week :)

[chris mason]

Gary, if the deadlift merely works the same muscles that you work with squats, bicep curls, and rows to varying degrees, how is it efficient? I don't think that anyone who trains with weights on this site doesn't do bicep curls, some form of row, and squats or leg press. So, if the deadlift hits these same muscles, isn't it actually being redundant and therefore inefficient?

[breeze]

SLDL primarily hits the hams and lower back. I don't think that squats really hits the hamstrings. Besides many people believe that the best ham exercise is SLDL.

[The_Chicken_Daddy]

Originally posted by breeze
I don't think that squats really hits the hamstrings.

Oh, you'd be suprised.

[The Cobra]

Can't let that one go.. You ever go FULL depth? Remotely near or beyond shoulder-width stance? Your quads won't be the muscles that fail, no sir.

[gary]

If squats are the best exercise for gluts, deads are the best for lower back. A stronger lower back would also help improve squat poundage.

SLDL can substitute back extension, hamstring curls and shrugs at the same time. Surely efficient. Not everybody does deep squats, parallel squats do not hit hamstrings that well.

BLDL is good alternative for squats if someone is doing two full body workouts a week.



Originally posted by chris mason
Gary, if the deadlift merely works the same muscles that you work with squats, bicep curls, and rows to varying degrees, how is it efficient? I don't think that anyone who trains with weights on this site doesn't do bicep curls, some form of row, and squats or leg press. So, if the deadlift hits these same muscles, isn't it actually being redundant and therefore inefficient?

[Adam]

Whats a BLDL? bent leg deadlift?

[gary]

yes...
BLDL: bent leg deadlift

[The Cobra]

I think Romanian Deadlifts are the best SLDL type of exercise. Good Mornings are great too, but they are pretty dangerous. For those that don't know, Romanian Deadlifts are stiff-legged deadlifts with unlocked knees. Conventional deadlifts are great, but I think the issue of keeping strict form on reps really causes problems. Squats work the same target muscles harder. Some people do deadlifts with a limited range of motion (looks almost like a romanian deadlift), some do them with a HUGE range of motion (myself, looks like a full squat), and some just plain don't do them right. The topic was are they necessary. Assuming you do the following exercises, no they aren't.

1) Squats
2) Shrugs

I also want to address the issue of bleeding shins when doing deadlifts. We all know that it's manly as hell to go in and beat the **** out of your shins. Makes you an iron warrior. When you do a proper deadlift, the bar SHOULD scrape against your lower legs. That's the best biomechanical position for 99.99% of the lifters. I suggest, though, that you try hard to reduce scraping. Think about how many people have had their nasty hands all over that bar.. hands that they've spit on, wiped their ass with, whatever. Not to mention if someone else has been deadlifting, there's going to be dead skin and blood on it (possibly). You really want all that crap getting in your wound? I didn't think so. Try not to bleed, even though it's cool as hell.

[RisingPhoenix]

Cobra,

people at your gym wipe their asses with the bars?
:)

[The_Chicken_Daddy]

Hahahaha.....

[chris mason]

Gary: First off, we were discussing standard deadlifts, not stiff-legged deadlifts. Second, STDLs do not take the hamstring muscles through a full range of motion. They do work the hamstring muscles and the lower back, but that does not make them a superior exercise. Let me create a couple of scenarios for you. Scenario one, take a lifter and have him perform stiffs and standard deadlifts. Scenario two, take his identical twin brother and have him perform squats. Now, which brother will have the larger lower body? I would bet everything I have (yes all of my debt!) that it would be the 2nd brother. Like I said before, nearly all weightlifters perform a rowing exercise for their back, curls for the biceps, and other exercises for the rest of the body. If this is true, why perform the deadlift? What benefit is it giving a bodybuilder who trains his upper body and squats for his lower body? To say that squats don't hit the hamstring muscles is really silly. There are many a trainee who has performed only the squat in their training and ended up with fantastic leg developement (quad and hamstring). To me, the bottom line is that squats work the largest muscles in the body in a more thorough manner than deadlifts. Due to an injury to my quad, I used stiffs combined with strict leg press for quite some time. I got very strong on the stiffs using 375 lbs for 10 + reps. I worked my way up on the leg press (very carefully to protect the injury) to where I was handing some very respectable poundages. I would perform the leg press after the stiffs. My point is, even though I could handle much more weight in the stiffs than most people, and I was leg pressing quite a bit of weight, I still didn't have my lower body up to the level that I can reach when I squat. You will do as you wish, but I urge you to give my methods an honest try and see for yourself.

[Maki Riddington]

It is opinion that will rule supreme,there are obviously factors to take into account when trying to compare whether the dealift is superior in developing ones hamstring muscularity and strenght over squats.

[gary]

I still think deadlifts can help a person in some way. I am wondering why Paul/Gino didn't say anything on this topic.

For comparison between SLDL and Squats for hamstring, read this:

http://www.healthandfitness.com/newsartic/DisplayNews.asp?NewsID=263

[Maki Riddington]

Thats a vague study.It doesn't explain much.
I know it's done by the NSCA but .............

[breeze]

Some of you are saying that deep squats hit the hamstrings, but deep squats are frowned upon by many professionals. The technique for squats is hams parallel to the ground. When I do deep squats I don't feel it in the hams, okay maybe a little. I do squats for the quadriceps and sldl and leg curls for the hamstrings.

[The Cobra]

They're frowned upon because they're hard as ****! But honestly, they are fine to do as long as you have good form. You have to make sure that your knees don't move out past your toes. That's tough on the ligaments in your knee and the tendons of your hams. You can do them.

[Anthony]

Hehehe, had to comment on 'having a strong dead doesn't mean you'll have a strong squat.'

Sound familiar Latman?

[Chris Rodgers]

Thanks for reminding me Ant!


BTW-I used some pointers today that were written by Dave Tate, who trains at Westside and I hit a PB on squats! They went up a lot from my last workout.

[king_gregz]

As with all exercises you do them out of choice, sure you don't have to include them in your back routine but in my opinion you wouldn't gain as much in general if you dropped them.

You might want to try some shin pads :D

[chris mason]

Your opinion is wrong as I have demonstrated.

[Pup]

As usual, I agree with Chris. Squats are the real deal, no doubt in my mind. Deads are a good exercise, but you can develop you back without them. I didn't start doing deads until 2 months ago and my back development was just fine without them.

[gary]

Many guys never did squats and their ass development is fine without them.

Peace!


Originally posted by just_a_pup
Deads are a good exercise, but you can develop you back without them. I didn't start doing deads until 2 months ago and my back development was just fine without them.

[chris mason]

Gary, Gary , Gary, not a good argument there. The squat is a very proficient exercise for building the glutes, while deadlifts will do very little for your latissimus developement. Deadlifts will work the traps, but they don't take the traps through a full range of motion. Your traps are not really moving through any range of motion, they are just helping to hold the weight. A static contraction. This is not to say that they don't get developed by deadlifts, just not optimally. So, in summary, squats are a much better ass developer than deadlifts a back developer.

[Fergy]

As everyone already knows, I love deads, I do squat more than I dead because your legs are your roots, and for a tree to grow your roots have to be strong, and people are right in saying that deads don't do much for your width, but does alot for thickness (i know not everyone is looking for that) deads work everything from the temples to toes (figuratively speaking). Squats have helped to bring my dead poundage up, becasue the first thing you are doing is pushing your feet through the ground. As for bleading shins, I would recommend baby powder, I use it for heavy deading, although when I compete it is not allowed so I have to suck it up. :cool: