PDA

View Full Version : Weightlifting for Martial Artists



fixationdarknes
10-10-2004, 06:12 PM
I know that a lot of MA's do some weightlifting, but would they go about doing more reps than a bodybuilder or powerlifter? Wouldn't they do more reps for the endurance and not so much the brute strength or size?

PizDoff
10-10-2004, 06:17 PM
No. I train weight training like 'normal people' do.
I keep reps between 6-10. Always training for more strength.
Size and strength only help you.

Gain endurance for sport specific exercises. Meaning you want more punching endurance? Go do more rounds on the heavy bag. You gas out when grappling too fast? Grapple more and tough it out.

Refer to this thread:
http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=53548

ryuage
10-10-2004, 06:37 PM
:withstupi

lift heavy and train for your specific sport..

fixationdarknes
10-10-2004, 06:40 PM
But won't size just slow you down? Or does training with lower reps give speed or what?

Mission
10-10-2004, 06:41 PM
I train like a normal BB I guess (with less than half the sets though).

PizDoff
10-10-2004, 06:57 PM
Size CAN slow you down, but how would you be fast?
You need muscles for that right?

Exactly.

I train moving the weights in a fast controlled manner. Olympic style lifts are great as
well, using your whole body in a coordinated manner.


I'm not going to go into the fast-twitch/slow-twitch debate here. :)

fixationdarknes
10-10-2004, 06:57 PM
Do you guys think a MA should try not to gain too much size?

Alright. Move weights fast. But how exactly do you move the weights? e.g. for the Bench Press, do you push the BB quickly and bring it down slowly? Or do you push it up quickly AND bring it down quickly also?

PizDoff
10-10-2004, 07:46 PM
What did I just say?


Size and strength only help you.

The bigger you are, the stronger you are, the more people you can beat down.
That's what a martial artist needs.


I do the concentric fast, and the eccentric phase slower.

fixationdarknes
10-10-2004, 07:57 PM
What did I just say?

The bigger you are, the stronger you are, the more people you can beat down.
That's what a martial artist needs.


I do the concentric fast, and the eccentric phase slower.

Alright, I agree with you but Bruce Lee wasn't very big yet he owned. Do you think he could've been even better had he been bigger?

Also, how fast do you do the concentric? As fast as you can?

DokterVet
10-10-2004, 07:57 PM
I agree with Pizdoff.

I train major compounds and focus on the 6-8 rep range.

The goal is to be bigger and stronger. Muscles won't slow you down. What do you think moves your arm? Your chi? Maybe. But your muscles are contracting. The more force they can create the better. And the heavier your arm is, the more it's going to hurt the other guy when you punch him. It will also help your grappling a lot as well. Brute strength and weight can do a lot for you.

Old fashioned instructors might tell you bigger muscles will make you slow and unflexible (I had an instructor tell me this) but we can see from martial sports that this is false.

dissipate
10-10-2004, 08:00 PM
i agree that size and strength help, what pizdoff said about concentric and eccentric, and i'd go further to say that as long as the size of the muscles aren't slowing you down.

how about researching bruce lee's workouts?

DokterVet
10-10-2004, 08:04 PM
Workout science has come a long way since Bruce Lee was working out. You'd be better off looking at Bas Rutten's workouts or Tito Ortiz's workouts.

PizDoff
10-10-2004, 08:04 PM
Bruce Lee may have been a bad ass fighter and looked pretty damn cool.
But notice those muscle things on his body? He certainly wouldn't be so 'good' without them.

And please don't bring Bruce Lee up as a reference, he was more 'actor' than 'fighter'.
I've seen enough documented versions of his fights.


I agree with Pizdoff.
What do you think moves your arm? Your chi?


HEheheh! :D

fixationdarknes
10-10-2004, 08:07 PM
I train major compounds and focus on the 6-8 rep range.

Do you do ANY isolations? Like, biceps?

PizDoff
10-10-2004, 08:08 PM
I agree with Piz Doff as well here guys.
Sounds like he has had many years of experience or something...





Also, how fast do you do the concentric? As fast as you can?


I train moving the weights in a fast controlled manner.



But since I just MAY not be getting through to you, and you may need a number, I move my weights at 12847198247 metres per second, sometimes I throw them through the ceiling with my chi powers. Then I levitate in a lotus position in triumph and arrogance.

SW
10-10-2004, 08:10 PM
What did I just say?



The bigger you are, the stronger you are, the more people you can beat down.


True but in MA as I'm sure you already know you get most of your power and effectiveness from form and "snapping" movements. Right?

dissipate
10-10-2004, 08:13 PM
i reckon lifting for the style you're doing is what i should have said as well. would bas rutten and tito ortiz be able to excel at wushu or muay thai?

pizdoff: i'm sorry you think that way about bruce lee, but he still is one of my fitness role models and a brilliant martial artist to me.

PizDoff
10-10-2004, 08:18 PM
dissipate - Be sorry about nothing. That is my opinion...about him in terms of actor or fighter. I DO like him, his workouts are good/ok? I had a link somewhere but that got deleted. Anyways we have 'better' ones supported with medical/physical research as compared to Bruce Lee's trial-and-error methods.




True but in MA as I'm sure you already know you get most of your power and effectiveness from form and "snapping" movements. Right?

Generally, but that would not be on topic to the discussion.

DokterVet
10-10-2004, 08:38 PM
Do you do ANY isolations? Like, biceps?

Sorry, yeah I guess my statement was misleading. I lift like most other people on this site. Focus on the compounds, but do iso as well.

I think, actually, if you are a kickboxer type, slightly higher reps might help, and I think Rutten actually does do higher reps than most BBers/powerlifters. I think grapplers would tend to lift more like a BBer/powerlifter/olympic lifter though. I prefer to go the brute size, strength route personally, even though my background is in karate. This stems from having a friend who was just too big and too strong for me to do anything to for a long time.

Bas Rutten actually has an excellent record in Muay Thai. I'm not sure what it is off hand, but you can probably look it up somewhere. He also has black belts in Taekwondo and Kyokushin Karate. He might not do well at wushu though. I'll give you that.

fixationdarknes
10-10-2004, 09:25 PM
Thanks for all the help everyone.

savdout209
10-10-2004, 09:53 PM
I dont claim to know jack about weightlifting or conditioning but I do believe that youre all right in a sense..I think doing 6-8 rep max weight will build strength yes but you need that juice that athletic training brings..lower weight and higher reps..and Bruce Lee was no actor, I dont understand why you ppl doubt that man so much. http://www.crossfit.com has a really good conditioning program if youre interested, fixationdarkness. It's definately a balance of both..train for strength, and train for endurance.

savdout209
10-10-2004, 09:55 PM
isnt rutten an (ex) Pancrase champion?

fixationdarknes
10-10-2004, 10:02 PM
I dont claim to know jack about weightlifting or conditioning but I do believe that youre all right in a sense..I think doing 6-8 rep max weight will build strength yes but you need that juice that athletic training brings..lower weight and higher reps..and Bruce Lee was no actor, I dont understand why you ppl doubt that man so much. http://www.crossfit.com has a really good conditioning program if youre interested, fixationdarkness. It's definately a balance of both..train for strength, and train for endurance.

Thanks, I'll take a look.

fixationdarknes
10-10-2004, 10:05 PM
Wait a second. Does Crossfit require a fee?

savdout209
10-10-2004, 10:36 PM
its free..the way it goes down is theres boxes down the middle with dates and workouts..follow the yellow brick road. if you dont know how to do a workout, most are on video in the 'excercises' section.

fixationdarknes
10-10-2004, 11:52 PM
its free..the way it goes down is theres boxes down the middle with dates and workouts..follow the yellow brick road. if you dont know how to do a workout, most are on video in the 'excercises' section.

Wait, I'm not seeing it. Where's the schedule stuff?

savdout209
10-11-2004, 12:08 AM
you dont see the big white box in the middle? :bang:

It says:


October 14, 2004
Thursday 041014

For time:
75 pound Thruster, 21 reps
3 Pull-ups
75 pound Thruster, 3 reps...
...and so on..

fixationdarknes
10-11-2004, 12:09 AM
But, why does it tell you how much weight to use? That doesn't make sense.

John0101
10-11-2004, 12:10 AM
oly lifts

savdout209
10-11-2004, 12:11 AM
fixation..read the 'getting started' section

fixationdarknes
10-11-2004, 12:15 AM
fixation..read the 'getting started' section

Am I supposed to just substitute the exercises?

Mission
10-11-2004, 12:54 PM
Speaking of Tito Ortiz, does anybody know his workout?

DokterVet
10-11-2004, 03:52 PM
isnt rutten an (ex) Pancrase champion?

Yep. Also former UFC heavyweight champion.

PizDoff
10-11-2004, 07:42 PM
Bas Rutten actually has an excellent record in Muay Thai. I'm not sure what it is off hand, but you can probably look it up somewhere. He also has black belts in Taekwondo and Kyokushin Karate. He might not do well at wushu though. I'll give you that.

Do you guys even know what wushu is?
Bas Rutten does not do wushu, Jet Li does Wushu.
Jet Li has been asked if he could take out those 'cagefighters' and he said 'I can't fight.'

Myself, having actually done some wushu, my brother trained in it for a few months before he went to something useful. Wushu is a DANCE, something created by the Chinese government to formalize the traditions of kung fu.

Do no confuse wushu with its acrobatics with punches, kicks and weapons as effective.




Tito Ortiz's workout and discussion here:
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5147&highlight=tito+ortiz


Saw this on the UG, someone asked Tito what his training routine was.
He responded:

Tito:
I lift six day a week. Two diffrent muscle a day, four sets of each, twenty reps of each set. Eat and sleep a lot. Stamina and endurance is the key.

Hope the mods don't delete this, someone DID ask for it.

savdout209
10-11-2004, 08:57 PM
yea unless he's fighting liddell, haha.

crazedwombat
10-12-2004, 06:34 AM
careful with practicing martial arts while bodybuilding. it has a lot to do with energy. martial arts focuses on pushing out with your own energy at an oppenent with either your or their energy. half of weightlifting is curling in, or pulling into your body instead of focusing on pushing it out. if you're a true martial artist you may see that it could very easily offset your flow of energy

dissipate
10-12-2004, 07:11 AM
Do you guys even know what wushu is?
Bas Rutten does not do wushu, Jet Li does Wushu.
Jet Li has been asked if he could take out those 'cagefighters' and he said 'I can't fight.'

Myself, having actually done some wushu, my brother trained in it for a few months before he went to something useful. Wushu is a DANCE, something created by the Chinese government to formalize the traditions of kung fu.

Do no confuse wushu with its acrobatics with punches, kicks and weapons as effective.

Could you please state where you got the quote from?

"Among China's well kept secrets, one caught the imagination of Americans - Chinese wushu. Wushu is an important component of the cultural heritage of China, with a rich content that has remained untarnished over the centuries. Literally translated, "wu" is military, "shu" is art. Wushu therefore means the art of fighting, or martial arts.

To describe wushu, it is best to understand the philosophy of its teaching. Every movement must exhibit sensible combat application and aestheticism. The wealth of wushu's content, the beauty of wushu movents, the difficulty factor, and the scientific training methods are the song of the elements that set wushu apart from martial arts. Routines are performed solo, paired or in groups, either barehanded or armed with traditional Chinese weaponry. In short, wushu is the most exciting martial art to be seen, felt, and ultimately practiced."

http://www.beijingwushuteam.com/#whatiswushu

"The most common misconception in western countries today is that the term "kung fu" refers to traditional, practical martial arts and that "wushu" refers to the more showy contemporary sport version. This is simply not true, in China they are one and the same. The degree of athleticism or beauty (or lack thereof) in any demonstration of martial arts is no indication, positive or negative, to the practitioner's actual ability to use their martial techniques. Practice and experience is the only thing that will let you evaluate another's knowledge of their art by their movement."

http://www.chicagowushu.com/?PAGE=19

"The practice of Wushu has evolved from primitive fighting and survival techniques that were used by tribes in ancient China.

Wushu achieved greater prominence during the Qin (221-207 B.C) and the Han Dynasty (206 B.C.- A.D. 220). Constant and fierce warfare necessitated the need for more powerful weapons and fighting methods. Broad swords for hacking and chopping against cavalry gradually replaced the straight sword. Long weapons were introduced. Wuyi was the general term used during this period to describe hand-to-hand fighting or fighting with weapons. Hua Tuo, a famous doctor in this era, created Wu Qin Xi with forms that imitated the postures of animals such as the tiger, deer, bear, monkey, and bird. Later, these influenced the development of other forms of Wushu Qigong and boxing.

As the country became unified under these Dynasties, more attention was paid toward health and entertainment and Wushu began appearing in dances and other forms of recreation and exercise. Dances such as the Broad-Sword Dance and Battle-Axe dance contained elements of attack and defense as well as general calisthenics. Temple fair activities often included Wushu performances. Wuyi specialists began attaching importance to unique skills such as jumping over houses and walls and running long distances."

More on the history of wushu at http://www.cmaawushu.com/history.html.

And yes, I do know what wushu is; I'm Chinese and I know my history as well as culture.

crazedwombat
10-12-2004, 07:20 AM
nicely said, i love wushu and if i was younger, i'd start it...

dissipate
10-12-2004, 07:45 AM
Alright, I agree with you but Bruce Lee wasn't very big yet he owned. Do you think he could've been even better had he been bigger?


Bruce Lee may have been a bad ass fighter and looked pretty damn cool.
But notice those muscle things on his body? He certainly wouldn't be so 'good' without them.

And please don't bring Bruce Lee up as a reference, he was more 'actor' than 'fighter'.
I've seen enough documented versions of his fights.

"I've been extremely impressed over the years as to how many bodybuilders are also highly trained martial artists. In fact, over the years I having personally supervised the training of many martial artists, with many of my phone clients already being rabid Lee fans, and martial artists seeking the most efficient manner of training for strength and speed; which was the goal of Lee's training. Also, I receive more e-mails, letters and phone calls from martial artists than any other type of athlete. This I believe follows from Lee's well known concern with weight training to develop efficiency and strength."

(Mike Mentzer)

"It's fascinating that almost three decades later, people are still talking about the body of Bruce Lee -- although it is by no means surprising. The Lee physique, once described by no less an authority on such matters than bodybuilding magnate Joe Weider as "the most defined body I've ever seen!" has attracted (much like the man's martial art and philosophy) a following that not only rivals but exceeds those of Elvis Presley, James Dean and Marilyn Monroe -- combined! Certainly his following exceeds that of any bodybuilder of a similar vintage.

And even more fascinating is the fact that almost everyone gets something different out of Bruce Lee -- martial artists revere his physical dexterity, power, speed and the genius he displayed in bringing science to bear on the world of martial arts; moviegoers are impressed with the man's screen presence and animal magnetism, along with the fact that he single-handedly created a new genre of action film thus opening the door to the Stallones, Schwarzeneggers and Jackie Chans who were to follow in his footsteps; philosophers are impressed with Lee's ability to bridge the philosophical chasm separating East and the West and to synthesize the best aspects of both cultures.

But there exists another pocket of humanity that sees in Lee something else -- although not entirely unrelated -- the bodybuilders. Bodybuilders, young and old, know from one quick glance at Lee's physique exactly how much labor went into its creation -- and they are, one and all, very impressed.

All of the aforementioned champion bodybuilders have indicated that Bruce Lee was a major influence on their bodybuilding careers, which is no small accomplishment when one considers the fact that Lee never entered a physique contest in his life. Ironically, despite his influence being, felt by the hardest of hard-core bodybuilders, Lee himself was never interested in developing a massive musculature. One of Lee's closest friends and an instructor in Lee's art of Jeet Kune Do, Ted Wong, recalls that "Bruce trained primarily for strength and speed." The physique -- while certainly appreciated by Lee -- came almost as a by-product of such training.

Lee's feats of strength are the stuff of legend; from performing push-ups - on one hand! - or thumbs only pushups, to supporting a 125-pound barbell at arms length in front of him (with elbows locked) for several seconds, or sending individuals (who outweighed him by as much as 100 pounds in some instances) flying through the air and landing some 15 feet away as a result of a punch that Lee delivered from only one-inch away, the power that Bruce Lee could generate -- at a mere bodyweight of 135 pounds -- is absolutely frightening. Not to mention some of his other nifty little habits like thrusting his fingers through full cans of Coca-Cola and sending 300 pound heavy bags slapping against the ceiling with a simple side kick."

"The Lethal Physique of Bruce Lee" by John Little, introduction by Mike Mentzer can be found here http://www.mikementzer.com/blee.html. You can find Bruce's personal bodybuilding program within.

savdout209
10-12-2004, 08:27 AM
Good stuff. Thanks, dissipate

dissipate
10-12-2004, 08:28 AM
Q
You’ve said Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan, Quentin Tarrentino, and Oscar De La Hoya are your hero’s, tell us why?

BAS:
Bruce Lee, the first real fighter who mixed martial arts, Jacky Chan, a circus guy who makes Martial arts look unbelievable &$151; plus is very funny and unbelievable Talented, Quentin Tarrentino because I think that he is one of the great Directors of this time and the movies, True Romance, Reservoir dogs and Pulp Fiction are on my A list. Oscar, because I think he is a very good boxer, technical and complete.

http://www.realfighting.com/0102/basrutint.htm

I think Bas Rutten had 16 Muay Thai fights and won 14 by knockout. I'm curious to know though, how many were with Thai fighters because personally I think the Thai fighter would win in a match with Bas Rutten.

And here's a good discussion on bodybuilding and Muay Thai training,
http://www.subfighter.com/ftopicp-13976.html
also for comparison between the physiques of Muay Thai fighters and MMA fighters regarding my previous post about lifting and training for the style you're doing.

Draven_Fenix
10-12-2004, 10:59 AM
In the form of karate I take, you don't need to be the fastest person in the world to be affective. I am like 170, lift heavy, and eat like a madman. I don't do very much cardio and I am not all that fast, but my movements are affective. If you use the mechanics correctly, you will have massive power. The point I am getting to is that with more mass you have a higher potential for power because you have more backup mass. Now if you have a martial artist who does not know how to use it, then they are screwed. Take for instance a guy in my class. He is prolly like 230 or so. Arms about the size of my head. He doesn't know how to use his mass to make his shots effective. He muscles it all the way while I incorparate sophisticated movements. Honestly, it does not take a lot to hurt people. A guy that is 110 pounds like Bruce Lee dominates because he uses correct mechanics. If a person like Arnold had mechanics like Bruce and knew how to use his backup mass, he would likewise dominate. Now obiously speed when you get to two people with high level of skill has a lot to do with it, but on the street or in a small competition, if you know how to use your muscles, backup mass, and mechanics, you will DECIMATE.

Also, incorporating multiple muscle groups is a large part in the power and speed department. If you look at Bruce Lee, he keeps his elbows tucked and allows his elbow to "track" along his ribcage. Also, he keeps his hand open until the last second. This allows the muscle to relax giving you more power as well as speed. If you look at it in the logical way, all bodybuilders or people who simply go to the gym know that your back and chest are much more powerful than your shoulders and arms. Well if you try to muslce a punch, using your arms and shoulders, yea, you can do some damage, but think about what would happen if you incorparated your back and chest into the motion by keeping your elbow tight to your ribs and chest the whole way.

Really, speed is only a small portion of the martial arts. You need to have your mechanics down as well. That's really all I can say.

ElPietro
10-12-2004, 12:37 PM
If you think thai fighters would win, why aren't they there then? Do they prefer to scrape by on the meager money they make in matches in thailand? I find it funny when people think someone's origin makes them better suited for a martial art. Thai boxing is probably the simplest art form to master. There are few moves, the rest is conditioning. That's it. Too many people attribute so much mysticism to martial arts that it's a joke. This is why there are so many McDojos that prey on the ignorant, because they can just make up some cool stuff, yet never actually display it.

Wushu is a display art. It is not practiced as self defense, it is used by travelling groups that put on shows. You can list all the definitions however you wish, they may have been applicable hundreds of years ago, but hi, welcome to the 2000s. I'm sure 5 consecutive tornado kicks work awesome in movies, and that seems to be where many here are getting their concepts of martial arts. Feel free to watch any no holds barred type stuff, or any real self defense situation, and tell me how often you will see an intricate acrobatic move executed, and have any positive result.

If you get into a fight, and actually want to not get your ass kicked, you will use the most efficient, quick moves you can. This means high kicks aren't of much use, especially in close quarters, and sliding from one stance to the next is also useless. Remember when these arts were developed, the world was a different place. Most high jumping kicks were meant to dismount a soldier on a horse. These guys also practiced the art all day every day, it was their job, they were soldiers.

This is why simple arts like thai boxing, or grappling, which can be learned rather quickly tend to be better suited for events like UFC, where rules are limited. No art is worthless though, as one guy said about Bruce Lee, he mixed arts. It's always best to take what you find suited to your ability, and practice those techniques, from whatever art you find it from, and master those few techniques. You don't need to know 15 different punches when 3 or 4 will do. Learn those 3 or 4, and you will go far, versus being somewhat familiar with all 15, and not knowing wtf to do when you are confronted. You'll probably only use a few techniques, so why not train those until they are second nature.

Hmmm...I have no idea why I'm posting this, but oh well, I did.

Draven_Fenix
10-12-2004, 01:37 PM
and sliding from one stance to the next is also useless.

Now that I disagree with. Maybe not doing massive changes, but stances are the base of all martial arts. If you are familiar with Kenpo, you know that it is absolutely not useless to swith from a nuetral bow to a forward or even a modified forward. This is what gives you your power. You can smack someone all you want, but without the power to hurt them, they will just keep on coming.

Also, stances are what keep you standing. If you have a bad stance and someone shoots for a tackle, it's your ass and them on top of it. If you have a good base, you are balanced and there is less of a chance of them knocking you over. But shooting for tackles is a whole different area with it's own set of techniques. I am just using it as an example. I do agree with what you said about the Mui Thai though. Good points.

ElPietro
10-12-2004, 01:42 PM
Lol, it's funny you mentioned Kenpo, because I took that for a while. I understand the reasoning behind the stances. I'm not sure what your experience has been, but let me ask you this. If your club had any kind of sparring at all, did they ever use the stances properly? I'd bet in 99% of clubs they will assume what most call a sparring stance. Which is similar foot position to thai boxing, regular boxing, and almost any other competition art. I guess you could call it a loose bow stance, but not as wide, since you need to be able to jump around, side step, move in and out etc.

Bow stance is probably great for shooting a bow though. :D

Draven_Fenix
10-12-2004, 02:14 PM
While I agree with what you said about not using the stances in sparring, how often do you get into a sparring match on the street. And in sparring, you do use more than one stance. That's what the freestlye techniques teach. All the principles can be used.

What I am trying to say though is outside of tournaments adn sparring, where the object is to not HURT the person you are going against, on the street you will not be sparring. You are PROTECTING yourself. You are going to be in a position where your stances are essential for countering enemy strikes and firing strikes of your own with enough force to stop your enemy from attacking and submit. By the way, I do not take traditional Kenpo, but AKKI Kenpo which is the Kenpo system recreated by Mr. Mills a few years back. It uses many different principals. In traditional Kenpo, the stances couldn't be used, but in the AKKI form, you can use many of them because you stay on your heels and use a more "liquid form" of the stance where you do not settle into it but use it to torque and gain more power in your strikes. It is possible to use in sparring situations and has been done before.

PizDoff
10-12-2004, 02:49 PM
careful with practicing martial arts while bodybuilding. it has a lot to do with energy. martial arts focuses on pushing out with your own energy at an oppenent with either your or their energy. half of weightlifting is curling in, or pulling into your body instead of focusing on pushing it out. if you're a true martial artist you may see that it could very easily offset your flow of energy

What the flaming fvck?!!?! What happens then when your flow is messed up? You blow up due to differences in internal chi flows?

PizDoff
10-12-2004, 02:50 PM
"I've been extremely impressed over the years as to how many bodybuilders are also highly trained martial artists. In fact, over the years I having personally supervised the training of many martial artists, with many of my phone clients already being rabid Lee fans, and martial artists seeking the most efficient manner of training for strength and speed; which was the goal of Lee's training. Also, I receive more e-mails, letters and phone calls from martial artists than any other type of athlete. This I believe follows from Lee's well known concern with weight training to develop efficiency and strength."

(Mike Mentzer)

"It's fascinating that almost three decades later, people are still talking about the body of Bruce Lee -- although it is by no means surprising. The Lee physique, once described by no less an authority on such matters than bodybuilding magnate Joe Weider as "the most defined body I've ever seen!" has attracted (much like the man's martial art and philosophy) a following that not only rivals but exceeds those of Elvis Presley, James Dean and Marilyn Monroe -- combined! Certainly his following exceeds that of any bodybuilder of a similar vintage.

And even more fascinating is the fact that almost everyone gets something different out of Bruce Lee -- martial artists revere his physical dexterity, power, speed and the genius he displayed in bringing science to bear on the world of martial arts; moviegoers are impressed with the man's screen presence and animal magnetism, along with the fact that he single-handedly created a new genre of action film thus opening the door to the Stallones, Schwarzeneggers and Jackie Chans who were to follow in his footsteps; philosophers are impressed with Lee's ability to bridge the philosophical chasm separating East and the West and to synthesize the best aspects of both cultures.

But there exists another pocket of humanity that sees in Lee something else -- although not entirely unrelated -- the bodybuilders. Bodybuilders, young and old, know from one quick glance at Lee's physique exactly how much labor went into its creation -- and they are, one and all, very impressed.

All of the aforementioned champion bodybuilders have indicated that Bruce Lee was a major influence on their bodybuilding careers, which is no small accomplishment when one considers the fact that Lee never entered a physique contest in his life. Ironically, despite his influence being, felt by the hardest of hard-core bodybuilders, Lee himself was never interested in developing a massive musculature. One of Lee's closest friends and an instructor in Lee's art of Jeet Kune Do, Ted Wong, recalls that "Bruce trained primarily for strength and speed." The physique -- while certainly appreciated by Lee -- came almost as a by-product of such training.

Lee's feats of strength are the stuff of legend; from performing push-ups - on one hand! - or thumbs only pushups, to supporting a 125-pound barbell at arms length in front of him (with elbows locked) for several seconds, or sending individuals (who outweighed him by as much as 100 pounds in some instances) flying through the air and landing some 15 feet away as a result of a punch that Lee delivered from only one-inch away, the power that Bruce Lee could generate -- at a mere bodyweight of 135 pounds -- is absolutely frightening. Not to mention some of his other nifty little habits like thrusting his fingers through full cans of Coca-Cola and sending 300 pound heavy bags slapping against the ceiling with a simple side kick."

"The Lethal Physique of Bruce Lee" by John Little, introduction by Mike Mentzer can be found here http://www.mikementzer.com/blee.html. You can find Bruce's personal bodybuilding program within.

That is really great, and just agrees with me that martial artists should do strength training.

Still say nothing about his fighting ability. No mention of record at all.

fixationdarknes
10-12-2004, 06:30 PM
"The Lethal Physique of Bruce Lee" by John Little, introduction by Mike Mentzer can be found here http://www.mikementzer.com/blee.html. You can find Bruce's personal bodybuilding program within.

I was reading his workout routine, and how come he didn't do any back work? Or at least, any direct back work? But I also heard somewhere in this forum that science has come a long way since Bruce Lee's days and that his workout may not have been the best.

MixmasterNash
10-12-2004, 06:56 PM
I was reading his workout routine, and how come he didn't do any back work? Or at least, any direct back work? But I also heard somewhere in this forum that science has come a long way since Bruce Lee's days and that his workout may not have been the best.

Lee did many pullups -- indeed, he could do many dozen in one set. Especially in that era, pullups were considered a gymnastic exercise and not really part of weight training. Gymnastic moves were trained separately from weights.

fixationdarknes
10-12-2004, 07:14 PM
Lee did many pullups -- indeed, he could do many dozen in one set. Especially in that era, pullups were considered a gymnastic exercise and not really part of weight training. Gymnastic moves were trained separately from weights.

Oh, alright. Pullups own the back. I can't do more than 5 overhand pullups. I'm kinda weak in that area :(

dissipate
10-12-2004, 07:25 PM
If you think thai fighters would win, why aren't they there then? Do they prefer to scrape by on the meager money they make in matches in thailand?
That is what I've been wondering too. My guesses are they don't have the size or they're not interested. BTW the money a Thai can make from a match may be considered meagre to us but not to them. Some children in Thailand fight because it brings in more than enough money for their school fees and for food for their family; they start helping other families with the money as well.


I find it funny when people think someone's origin makes them better suited for a martial art.
Not sure who you're talking about here but an instance of me thinking that a Thai fighter would win in a match with Bas Rutten is not a claim that someone's origin makes them better suited for a martial art. I do know for a fact that Holland produces fantastic MT fighters as well.


There are few moves, the rest is conditioning.
Throwing and grappling is actually taught as well.


Too many people attribute so much mysticism to martial arts that it's a joke. This is why there are so many McDojos that prey on the ignorant, because they can just make up some cool stuff, yet never actually display it.
Agreed. I really hate the Western hype over martial arts.


Wushu is a display art. It is not practiced as self defense, it is used by travelling groups that put on shows. You can list all the definitions however you wish, they may have been applicable hundreds of years ago, but hi, welcome to the 2000s. I'm sure 5 consecutive tornado kicks work awesome in movies, and that seems to be where many here are getting their concepts of martial arts. Feel free to watch any no holds barred type stuff, or any real self defense situation, and tell me how often you will see an intricate acrobatic move executed, and have any positive result.
If you did read what I pasted about wushu, you disagree, and I'll agree to disagree since the meaning and history of wushu can't change your mind.


No art is worthless though, as one guy said about Bruce Lee, he mixed arts. It's always best to take what you find suited to your ability, and practice those techniques,
Agreed.


Still say nothing about his fighting ability. No mention of record at all.
I'm sure you could find records of his fights on the Internet if you were really interested but this seems to be turning more into an argument so I shall stop here.


I was reading his workout routine, and how come he didn't do any back work? Or at least, any direct back work? But I also heard somewhere in this forum that science has come a long way since Bruce Lee's days and that his workout may not have been the best.

"5.) Good Mornings: A word of caution about this exercise. Lee performed this movement to strengthen his lower back"

I don't believe either, that this was the only workout Bruce used.

With regards to what DokterVet said about workout science coming a long way since Bruce Lee was working out, and PizDoff about Bruce's trial-and-error methods, I think Bruce's physique and prowess is enough to make a point.

Note that I did not say "do only Bruce Lee's workout" (or "Muay Thai is the best and learn only Muay Thai"). I firmly believe in trying different things and doing whatever works for you, or rather, "trial-and-error", because we are all different and what works for certain people may not work for other people.

fixationdarknes
10-12-2004, 07:49 PM
Note that I did not say "do only Bruce Lee's workout" (or "Muay Thai is the best and learn only Muay Thai"). I firmly believe in trying different things and doing whatever works for you, or rather, "trial-and-error", because we are all different and what works for certain people may not work for other people.

About Lee's workout routine- For the chest, the only weightlifting exercise he did was Flat Bench Press. How, then, did his upper pecs get so developed? Maybe because of his pushups? But what are you guys' opinions about the chest- do you think it's good to do a variety of chest exercises like flat bench, incline, decline, and flies? Or do you think just the Flat Bench is good enough?

PizDoff
10-12-2004, 08:07 PM
That is what I've been wondering too. My guesses are they don't have the size or they're not interested. BTW the money a Thai can make from a match may be considered meagre to us but not to them. Some children in Thailand fight because it brings in more than enough money for their school fees and for food for their family; they start helping other families with the money as well.


If you did read what I pasted about wushu, you disagree, and I'll agree to disagree since the meaning and history of wushu can't change your mind.

I'm sure you could find records of his fights on the Internet if you were really interested but this seems to be turning more into an argument so I shall stop here.




Actually, there have been some MT fighters from Thailand, once making it big in Lumpinee and other large stadiums, have moved to K-1. Good payday!


dissipate - Dude, have you trained or seen wushu training? If you have, I don't see how you could call it a system for fighting. Sanda and wushu are different things.

Bruce Lee's fights? (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17336)

Arguement it may be, but how come his movies are more famous than his fights? And if he was so good, where is the footage? I'm sure film and camera were available around the time he lived. :)

dissipate
10-12-2004, 08:21 PM
Actually, there have been some MT fighters from Thailand, once making it big in Lumpinee and other large stadiums, have moved to K-1. Good payday!
Yes, I do know Buakaw "Por Pramuk" was the first-ever Thai K-1 champion at the K-1 World Max 2004. Exceptional performance.


Dude, have you trained or seen wushu training? If you have, I don't see how you could call it a system for fighting. Sanda and wushu are different things.
I have not trained in wushu but I've observed wushu training. As I said, "wushu" means martial arts and is the correct term for all Chinese martial arts.

PizDoff
10-12-2004, 08:23 PM
I thought it was 'kung fu' :D

dissipate
10-12-2004, 08:41 PM
The Chinese words "gong fu" (aka "kung fu") have a few meanings -

1) the time it takes to do something
2) free time; leisure
3) effort; labour
4) skill; ability

With regards to the third and fourth meanings, they don't apply exclusively to martial arts.

savdout209
10-12-2004, 08:43 PM
Do you guys even know what wushu is?
Bas Rutten does not do wushu, Jet Li does Wushu.
Jet Li has been asked if he could take out those 'cagefighters' and he said 'I can't fight.'

Myself, having actually done some wushu, my brother trained in it for a few months before he went to something useful. Wushu is a DANCE, something created by the Chinese government to formalize the traditions of kung fu.

Do no confuse wushu with its acrobatics with punches, kicks and weapons as effective.

I disagree. I think dance or not it can be beneficial to ones self defense. I dont know anything about wushu but tai chi is more of a dance and also considered a fighting system. Not so much an attack based fighting system like muay thai or something but more of a flowing, self defense, counter attack type system.

savdout209
10-12-2004, 08:45 PM
its all ass kicking to me :ninja:

dissipate
10-12-2004, 08:52 PM
I think dance or not it can be beneficial to ones self defense.
Talking about dancing, how about capoeira? ;) It's a martial arts-dance and was used in direct combat by the slaves in Palmares.

savdout209
10-12-2004, 09:09 PM
there's a good one i forgot..definately capoeira too. talk about speed and acrobatics.

savdout209
10-12-2004, 09:12 PM
but getting back to the topic..I myself am also thinking of training for MMA..Anyone out there have any personal experience?

PizDoff
10-12-2004, 09:44 PM
Yes, what about it? Make a new thread and I'll be glad to share on that, or PM me if you want my martial arts website I post on. If you start a thread there you will get far more educated responses than what I can give or this forum can give.


its all ass kicking to me :ninja:

Showing your knowledge. :)

savdout209
10-12-2004, 09:56 PM
thats true..

dissipate
10-12-2004, 10:07 PM
I thought I answered after the wink-smiley :P

FawkItzTommy
10-12-2004, 10:09 PM
im a martial artist, but i mainly kick box... i weight train like regular body builders do.. my legs are significantly stronger and faster and my arms are quicker and more powerful. you will acctually well less likely to get injured, as compared to a person that didnt weight train. train at a faster than normal pace, it will work out your fast twitch muscle and stretch alot since you want that full range of mobility. this should give you both strength and speed. and do alot of shadow boxing, that should make you quicker also.

dissipate
10-12-2004, 10:19 PM
Bruce Lee's fights?
Sorry, off-topic here again - I checked out the link you posted and I find that a lot of 'discussions' are mostly misconceptions that no one bothered to research on and clarify, and personal bashing e.g. the threads on Ninja-do.

PizDoff
10-12-2004, 10:35 PM
You could have just said you agree with me! :)
Er, shadow boxing is not meant to give you speed. It is meant to allow you to visualize the techniques. Train the speed bag or heavy bag for speed, also don't lock out your elbows when shadow boxing.

PizDoff
10-12-2004, 10:35 PM
Sorry, off-topic here again - I checked out the link you posted and I find that a lot of 'discussions' are mostly misconceptions that no one bothered to research on and clarify, and personal bashing e.g. the threads on Ninja-do.


? Ok, and you have this info somewhere?
Bring it on! I am willing to hear it.

dissipate
10-12-2004, 10:53 PM
If one reads the Ninja-do Association's page carefully and impartially from the very beginning, he/she would be able to find out the history of Ninja-do and do further research from there on to find out what is taught and how. Much better if the person attended a few Ninja-do training sessions themselves and talked with or sparred with the teacher there.

All I see in those threads are flaming and mocking. No actual, sensible "yes, I've attended a couple of their sessions and picked their brains; this is what I think".

There is history and there are personal opinions. I don't really find history debatable unless it's really murky, but personal opinions are always debatable and this thread could go on forever just because we don't agree on the same things.

So once again since we probably disagree on capoeira and ninja-do, I'll agree to disagree with you.

Shane
10-12-2004, 10:57 PM
Dissipate is correct about wushu. It's a general term applied to martial arts from China. In the modern competitive forms it is basically a dance and acrobatic sport. But it's also the term applied to any martial art from China. So the term 'wushu' has multiple meanings. I think, if anyone on this forum, we should respect her opinion of the terms "wushu" and "kung fu" because she is after all Chinese and lives in Asia so I'm sure she has a better grasp of the meaning of those words and their place in her culture. I do know that when I was taking Wing Chun and Pak Mei we sometimes referred to it as Wushu. The only reason we ever called it Kung Fu was becuase in Western culture that term, while somewhat inaccurate, has become synonymous with martial arts.

Also, there are ground fighting techniques in Muay Thai. They just aren't often taught and they don't use them in the ring. I was taught some by my instructor but he would not teach me more unless I accepted his offer to become an instructor myself which I, unfortunately, did not have the time to do. But I don't believe in the superiority of any style anymore.

I do think some styles are more effective than others. But I think a person's ability to effectively apply the techniques of his/her style is the most important thing in any fight. I saw a UFC fighter, I can't remember the guys name but he was a tall black guy with hair almost like that dude from Kidd & Play and he went up against a Thai boxer who weighed between 80-100 lbs less under Thai fighting rules and the Thai fighter owned him. Now, someone here could say that that doesn't matter because Thai fighting rules limited the guys options. But if anyone thinks that there aren't rules that make a huge difference in the effectiveness of fighting methods in MMA they have got to be kidding themselves.

Oh yeah, and on the original question. Maybe consider training with different rep brackets to train different energy systems for fighting. A person CAN train for strength, power and endurance at the same time after all. And it would be best to have all of those when fighting.

dissipate
10-13-2004, 02:06 AM
I do think some styles are more effective than others. But I think a person's ability to effectively apply the techniques of his/her style is the most important thing in any fight.
strongly agreed.

Rastaman
10-13-2004, 03:47 AM
But I don't believe in the superiority of any style anymore.

I do think some styles are more effective than others. But I think a person's ability to effectively apply the techniques of his/her style is the most important thing in any fight.

I've come to this conclusion as well. I'm on my third martial art right now.

crazedwombat
10-13-2004, 06:06 AM
pizdof, about the energy, I was told that by an old Aikido instructor. I figure if your flow is off, your performance will falter, and all your energy will not be directed correctly severely hampering your abilities. mostly though only to those that are really good, those who know nothing probably wont notice the effect. If you take americanized martial arts they tend to not teach about energy until the blacks. I took 2 styles of TKD american and korean to the top, aikido and am learning brazilian jujistu (think royce gracie). praticing internal martial arts is just as important as external if not more. I'm sure you've heard that once you get to black in martial arts, you are just starting....they mean it in the form of internal martial arts.

PizDoff
10-13-2004, 02:15 PM
So once again since we probably disagree on capoeira and ninja-do, I'll agree to disagree with you.

Why are you assuming I disagree with you?

I have no dealings with ninja-do, you'll see I have not posted in those threads. Also, if you can make such a big difference, I challenge you to post on that forum and give us your views.
Disclaimer: Abundance of morons on that forum, as with all forums.

PizDoff
10-13-2004, 02:39 PM
Dissipate is correct about wushu. It's a general term applied to martial arts from China. In the modern competitive forms it is basically a dance and acrobatic sport. But it's also the term applied to any martial art from China. So the term 'wushu' has multiple meanings. I think, if anyone on this forum, we should respect her opinion of the terms "wushu" and "kung fu" because she is after all Chinese and lives in Asia so I'm sure she has a better grasp of the meaning of those words and their place in her culture. I do know that when I was taking Wing Chun and Pak Mei we sometimes referred to it as Wushu. The only reason we ever called it Kung Fu was becuase in Western culture that term, while somewhat inaccurate, has become synonymous with martial arts.

Well excuse me SHANE, but I happen to be Chinese as well. Don't live in China, but I live in Toronto, and I nor anyone else does not need to be in China to study it or have an understanding of it.
I have also further qualified myself by explaining what I have trained in the past.
When I took Wing Chun and Tai Chi, I/we NEVER referred to it as wushu.
When I took some wushu we referred to it as wusuh.

It is inaccurate, but as we all well know, the meaning of words changes over him, and kung-fu is used to described all Chinese martial arts.





Also, there are ground fighting techniques in Muay Thai. They just aren't often taught and they don't use them in the ring. I was taught some by my instructor but he would not teach me more unless I accepted his offer to become an instructor myself which I, unfortunately, did not have the time to do. But I don't believe in the superiority of any style anymore.

Today's Muay Thai is generally taught without ground fighting techniques. Just like judo, TKD, boxing, kickboxing for example, they train you for the competition in the respective art.

www.thaing.net has tons of info about South-East Asian arts.



I do think some styles are more effective than others. But I think a person's ability to effectively apply the techniques of his/her style is the most important thing in any fight.

So very true! :)





pizdof, about the energy, I was told that by an old Aikido instructor. I figure if your flow is off, your performance will falter, and all your energy will not be directed correctly severely hampering your abilities. mostly though only to those that are really good, those who know nothing probably wont notice the effect. If you take americanized martial arts they tend to not teach about energy until the blacks. I took 2 styles of TKD american and korean to the top, aikido and am learning brazilian jujistu (think royce gracie). praticing internal martial arts is just as important as external if not more. I'm sure you've heard that once you get to black in martial arts, you are just starting....they mean it in the form of internal martial arts.

I've heard people say, once you get the black, you know all the basics well. :)
I agree with you about getting a flow in your energy, but disagree with that comical statement by the aikido instructor about weight training messing up your energies.

I know what BJJ is, I've trained in it, mostly from cross-training from other artists. Did you mention Royce for a reason other than being a prominent figure who does BJJ?

ElPietro
10-13-2004, 02:59 PM
I don't think thai boxing was ever really a martial art. It was created as sport fighting no? I used to read up on all the history but it was long ago. Thai boxing instructors my teach ground techniques, but there isn't ground fighting allowed in a thai boxing match, so it's technically not a part of thai boxing.

Also, whether wushu means one thing or another, the definition really is irrelevant, it's the application. It can mean something different to everyone. I've read many articles from chinese communities that describe it as performance art, mainly used in the big parades and stuff. To others it may mean all art forms, but that still means very little, since you can drill down into what exact are you are speaking of, so it's relatively pointless to argue.

He probably mentioned Royce Gracie because most gracies have their own BJJ schools with their own methods and systems. Just like when I trained BJJ, it was affiliated with Nova Uniao in Brazil. So when any of our doods would go to compete in brazil they would stay and train with that particular school.

dissipate
10-13-2004, 09:37 PM
Why are you assuming I disagree with you?
To cut short any further arguments that might occur.


I challenge you to post on that forum and give us your views.
Why post my observations and views when they will only receive more flames than sensible, objective thoughts on the matter.


Well excuse me SHANE, but I happen to be Chinese as well. Don't live in China, but I live in Toronto, and I nor anyone else does not need to be in China to study it or have an understanding of it.
I have also further qualified myself by explaining what I have trained in the past.
When I took Wing Chun and Tai Chi, I/we NEVER referred to it as wushu.
When I took some wushu we referred to it as wusuh.

It is inaccurate, but as we all well know, the meaning of words changes over him, and kung-fu is used to described all Chinese martial arts.
A good example of the Westernisation of Chinese culture. The meaning of Chinese words don't change over time in China and to most Chinese. The perceived meaning is changed by Westerners, which brings me back to the earlier post I made about wushu and the common misconception about it in Western countries today.

In that post was also an excerpt from the website of the Beijing Wushu Team's reply to "What is Wushu?". If we're discussing wushu's history and what it is, would it not be better to go back to its roots in China rather than look for an answer in Western countries?


Also, whether wushu means one thing or another, the definition really is irrelevant, it's the application.
I'd agree that definition is irrelevant if one is just interested in practical application. Personally, I like to read up on the history and essentially anything I can find on the martial art to appreciate and understand it better.


I've read many articles from chinese communities that describe it as performance art, mainly used in the big parades and stuff.
I reckon some people go with the flow rather than create more confusion.

savdout209
10-13-2004, 10:08 PM
Oh yeah, and on the original question. Maybe consider training with different rep brackets to train different energy systems for fighting. A person CAN train for strength, power and endurance at the same time after all. And it would be best to have all of those when fighting.

Could you give me an example of a routine for all 3 types of training?
I get the idea.. but its hard to believe you can effectively train for all 3 aspects at the SAME time. :confused: ..and Tommy, you mentioned training at a faster pace to work your fast twitch muscle? Did you mean, really thrusting the weight harder and less of a break between sets or wha? Also on the stretching..does anyone have any info on that? positions/duration/routines..whatever? any and all replies would be greatly appreciated..you all kick ass :thumbup:

fixationdarknes
10-13-2004, 10:19 PM
Could you give me an example of a routine for all 3 types of training?
I get the idea.. but its hard to believe you can effectively train for all 3 aspects at the SAME time. :confused: ..and Tommy, you mentioned training at a faster pace to work your fast twitch muscle? Did you mean, really thrusting the weight harder and less of a break between sets or wha? Also on the stretching..does anyone have any info on that? positions/duration/routines..whatever? any and all replies would be greatly appreciated..you all kick ass :thumbup:

Me wants to know too.

Shane
10-13-2004, 10:38 PM
Well excuse me SHANE, but I happen to be Chinese as well. Don't live in China, but I live in Toronto, and I nor anyone else does not need to be in China to study it or have an understanding of it.
I have also further qualified myself by explaining what I have trained in the past.

You're right. You don't have to be Chinese to study or have an understanding of it. But Dissipate does live over there so she is more likely to know if wushu is a commonly used term for Chinese martial arts (not just the acrobatic form) in general over there. I've seen people use the term wushu to describe Chinese martial arts beyond the acrobatic dance that you are referring to as wushu. And I've read books that same the same. So why is your belief that the term wushu does not apply to Chinese martial arts in general more valid?


When I took Wing Chun and Tai Chi, I/we NEVER referred to it as wushu.
When I took some wushu we referred to it as wusuh.

It is inaccurate, but as we all well know, the meaning of words changes over him, and kung-fu is used to described all Chinese martial arts.

Yeah? Well I've studied Wing Chun and Pak Mei and we have at times referred to them as kung fu AND wushu. So there ya go.


Today's Muay Thai is generally taught without ground fighting techniques. Just like judo, TKD, boxing, kickboxing for example, they train you for the competition in the respective art.

www.thaing.net has tons of info about South-East Asian arts.


Yes I know. Thus I said "Also, there are ground fighting techniques in Muay Thai. They just aren't often taught and they don't use them in the ring."

I've seen that site before. But thanks. :)

Shane
10-13-2004, 10:54 PM
Could you give me an example of a routine for all 3 types of training?
I get the idea.. but its hard to believe you can effectively train for all 3 aspects at the SAME time. :confused: ..and Tommy, you mentioned training at a faster pace to work your fast twitch muscle? Did you mean, really thrusting the weight harder and less of a break between sets or wha? Also on the stretching..does anyone have any info on that? positions/duration/routines..whatever? any and all replies would be greatly appreciated..you all kick ass :thumbup:

There are a number of ways you could train for all 3 types at once. It goes beyond the scope of this thread though. Maybe I'll submit an article on it to WBB (though I already owe them one). But I digress...

Why is it hard to believe you can train for all 3 at once? I think you guys are underestimating the human body. If you want to see an idea of how this is done for different sports check out a book called Periodization by Tudor Bompa. I'll post a more specific example of what I'm talking about in this thread tomorrow night when I have more time. :)

fixationdarknes
10-13-2004, 11:09 PM
There are a number of ways you could train for all 3 types at once. It goes beyond the scope of this thread though. Maybe I'll submit an article on it to WBB (though I already owe them one). But I digress...

Why is it hard to believe you can train for all 3 at once? I think you guys are underestimating the human body. If you want to see an idea of how this is done for different sports check out a book called Periodization by Tudor Bompa. I'll post a more specific example of what I'm talking about in this thread tomorrow night when I have more time. :)

Well, I'm still fairly new to weightlifting. And I am full of questions. I'll be waiting for your post tomorrow. :)

savdout209
10-13-2004, 11:12 PM
What do you think of crossfit.com's routines? Is that pretty much what youre talking about? They think more along the lines of 'routine is the enemy.. it will all come together' whereas i like the idea of some kind of balance going on ..training for mass/cardio/strength at the same time in some sort of a routine split (if any of that makes sense). Maybe I just need to really give crossfit a dedicated shot. I really am horribly impatient ;P anyway ill check that book out if i can find it and thanks for the feedback

dissipate
10-13-2004, 11:14 PM
I'll be waiting for your post too Shane!!

PizDoff
10-14-2004, 01:54 AM
To cut short any further arguments that might occur.


Why post my observations and views when they will only receive more flames than sensible, objective thoughts on the matter.

So you are saying you already shy away from debating your opinion on various topics? A viewpoint that has to be sheltered is not worth espousing.


I am to a degree interested in the histories of martial arts, as yes, you can understand the art better through a look at its history. But what I'm most concerned about is combat effectiveness, self-defense effectiveness, and how I can use it best.



A good example of the Westernisation of Chinese culture. The meaning of Chinese words don't change over time in China and to most Chinese. The perceived meaning is changed by Westerners, which brings me back to the earlier post I made about wushu and the common misconception about it in Western countries today.

In that post was also an excerpt from the website of the Beijing Wushu Team's reply to "What is Wushu?". If we're discussing wushu's history and what it is, would it not be better to go back to its roots in China rather than look for an answer in Western countries?



Exactly, Western/European civilizations have had an impact on CMA.
Changing it, glorifying and creating the aura of mysticism.
Whether 'wushu' was the term in the past used to refer to CMA, now it is kung-fu that has been popularized as meaning CMA.

Now that I recall actually, I have one shirt, from when I was a tournament official, it says 'Kou Shu (Martial Arts)' on the back of it. Not sure as to the differences of Cantones and Mandarin in that aspect as well. Have you guys ran into that as another way of romanizing the Chinese characters?




Yeah? Well I've studied Wing Chun and Pak Mei and we have at times referred to them as kung fu AND wushu. So there ya go.

+1 + (-1) = 0
:D

I mentioned those to show the lack of magnitude your anecdotal evidence has.

Looking forward to reviewing your article. When it comes... :)



I apologise if any of that was mumbo-jumboed. I totally lost my point and train of thought in many places. Getting to be 4am and I have midterm in a few hours....sleep....

*Collapses*

PizDoff
10-14-2004, 01:56 AM
+1 + (-1) = 0
:D

Er, forgot to mention wushu in there as well.

-sin-
10-14-2004, 04:07 AM
Could you please state where you got the quote from?

Dear Jet:
Has anyone ever tried to pick a fight with you in real life? If so, how did you handle it? Did you avoid it? Or did you get involved in it? When have you had to use your training to get yourself out of a tough situation?

"I myself have never been in a fight in real life, nor do I wish to be in one." - Jet Li

http://jetli.com/jet/index.php?s=body&ss=questions&p=x&date=001020

Jet Li is an actor that has never been in a fight in his life. Wushu has about the same relevance to real fighting as the floor excercises performed in gymnastics. Those guys in "You Got Served" could do some funky breakdance moves but I wouldn't bet on them if they stepped into the ring with Wanderlei Silva.

dissipate
10-14-2004, 06:04 AM
So you are saying you already shy away from debating your opinion on various topics? A viewpoint that has to be sheltered is not worth espousing.
For me, in some situations, yes. In this discussion I feel like I've had to keep referring back to what I had already posted in this thread and we seem to be arguing based on opinion. Once again, opinion is debatable and we could be debating forever on various topics if we don't see eye to eye. What good would that do?

As for the threads I mentioned at the martial arts forum you frequent, most of the posts are uneducated flames. How many have bothered to read the information on the association's website carefully and objectively, and make and effort to perform further research instead of taking images from the website, pasting them in the forums and mocking them?

Posting what I know about ninja-do wouldn't change their minds, it'd just start more arguments and quarrels. So why post? Why argue over words? I see it as a waste of time. It's not going to solve anything or help anything. And going out of my way to get people to understand the literal, true meanings of "wushu" and "kung fu", or the background of ninja-do, to end up arguing over such issues, certainly aren't my top priorities in life.


I am to a degree interested in the histories of martial arts, as yes, you can understand the art better through a look at its history. But what I'm most concerned about is combat effectiveness, self-defense effectiveness, and how I can use it best.
Yep, guess it depends on what each of us is interested in.


Whether 'wushu' was the term in the past used to refer to CMA, now it is kung-fu that has been popularized as meaning CMA.
Yeah.. unfortunately :( It's kinda like saying (in English) "this eat is nice" and "let's have Indonesian eat today" instead of "this food is nice" and "let's have Indonesian food today" if you get what I mean. If I said "I want to learn kung fu" to a local in China, he/she'd be wondering what on earth exactly it is that I want to learn, unless he/she already knows how Chinese martial arts are called "kung fu" in the West. You'd see "wing chun academy" advertisements, or "muay thai camp", or "taekwondo club", but you wouldn't see "kung fu school" like the U.S. unless the instructors were trying to attract foreigners, because that's probably the only way some would know they can get martial arts lessons there since they associate "kung fu" with martial arts.

This is why I reckon some Chinese abroad, especially in the U.S., use the term "kung fu" instead of "wushu" or a particular style.


Now that I recall actually, I have one shirt, from when I was a tournament official, it says 'Kou Shu (Martial Arts)' on the back of it. Not sure as to the differences of Cantones and Mandarin in that aspect as well. Have you guys ran into that as another way of romanizing the Chinese characters?
Oh yeah, I've seen lots of romanisation hehe. Over here it mostly happens only on menus in Chinese restaurants - Chinese characters with their romanisation below like "Peking Duck" - for foreigners. People spelling out the pronounciation of words in dialects make things even more confusing e.g. shifu/sifu.


"I myself have never been in a fight in real life, nor do I wish to be in one." - Jet Li. Jet Li is an actor that has never been in a fight in his life. Wushu has about the same relevance to real fighting as the floor excercises performed in gymnastics. Those guys in "You Got Served" could do some funky breakdance moves but I wouldn't bet on them if they stepped into the ring with Wanderlei Silva.
Firstly, please read my previous post on page 2 about wushu.

Jet Li saying that he has never been in a fight nor wishes to be in one does not prove wushu has no relevance to real fighting; he hasn't even been in a fight, there is no outcome to place judgement on. Also, one person's performance in a fight does not indicate how realistically useful the style he has learnt is, assuming he has only learnt one style throughout his life. As Shane said, a person's ability to effectively apply the techniques of his/her style is the most important thing in any fight.

crazedwombat
10-14-2004, 06:20 AM
sin, you've been to his site so before saying he's just an actor, have you read his biography? its on the site. its long but a damn good read, while he's never been in a real fight, he was a true martial artist long before an actor, even if he had no choice in it.

pizdof, i mentioned royce gracie only to let others know a prominent figure in BBJ if they didnt recognize the style. as for weightlifting messing up your energies, with all your different styles you've practiced, you might not have gotten far enough in them to understand it all. true martial art masters control their energies through out each day as a form of practice. in weightlifting, for example, when you do curls you're using your energies to pull the weights in, so youre directing your energies into your body, in Aikido, and this is why he didnt like me doing it, your energier need to be directed out.

Now if you weightlift and your flow is off (doing exercises that direct your energies in, not out), it might not mean much against a drunken brawl in a bar. but if you were against a master or even someone who has practice for a great deal of time and your level was equal to his/hers, but your energies were not controlled then the other person would win. how often will you fight a master? probably very very rarely, but then again, another purpose to martial arts is perfecting your style and with an unbalanced flow, you wouldnt have mastered it.

the philosophy of your energies, or chi, could go on for hours and i have sat and listened for that long to some masters and i still know very little...so while in traditional martial arts it may take up to 5-10 years to become a black, or the top of whatever style, it takes the rest of your life to understand the internal...

weightlifting in general does not mess up your flow. only exercises that that direct your energy in. bench, squats, shoulder press, they're all examples of exercises that push your flow out, so they're ok.

DokterVet
10-14-2004, 08:09 AM
So Crazed Wombat, you only do push excersizes? You're going to have some crazy muscle imballances.
You might be real concerned with messing up your energies, but I'm not too worried about it.

MixmasterNash
10-14-2004, 08:30 AM
Those guys in "You Got Served" could do some funky breakdance moves but I wouldn't bet on them if they stepped into the ring with Wanderlei Silva.

LOL. I wouldn't bet on 2 dozen of them in the ring with Silva.

crazedwombat
10-14-2004, 09:11 AM
lol i didnt say that i only do push exercises. i just said that your energies can be unbalanced. i'm working out like normal, i was just stating the fact that it messes them up and trying to explain the reasoning behind it. I'm no master nor was pretending to be. just stating whta i learned through them.

Shane
10-14-2004, 07:08 PM
+1 + (-1) = 0
:D

I mentioned those to show the lack of magnitude your anecdotal evidence has.

Looking forward to reviewing your article. When it comes... :)

You mean the same lack of magnitude that your previously stated anecdotal evidence has? Before wushu was a sport, it was a term used for what we in the west call kung fu as dissipate has stated.

http://www.stanford.edu/group/wushu/whatis.html




To everyone that asked for the post on training - Sorry, I'm not going to be able to write the post tonight because I'm not going to have time. I promise I'll write it this weekend. Sorry.

fixationdarknes
10-14-2004, 07:17 PM
To everyone that asked for the post on training - Sorry, I'm not going to be able to write the post tonight because I'm not going to have time. I promise I'll write it this weekend. Sorry.

No worries, bro. I'll still be waiting for you though. Very interested. :thumbup:

savdout209
10-14-2004, 07:41 PM
:drooling: I'm so fu**ing tired of tuna sandwiches :bang:

PizDoff
10-14-2004, 11:34 PM
My exam went well, thanks for asking.
Now I'm a bit punch drunk but feeling good. Sparring is fun! :)



in weightlifting, for example, when you do curls you're using your energies to pull the weights in, so youre directing your energies into your body, in Aikido, and this is why he didnt like me doing it, your energier need to be directed out.

Hahahahaha! Ok, well besides me rarely doing curls, I guess I'll just keep doing my self-destructive training methods and messing up my energies.

Oh btw, has any other of your teachers said anything about this energy thing? Have you asked them?

PizDoff
10-14-2004, 11:40 PM
crazedwombat - Wait, sorry, but you still workout like normal despite the possible dangers of your flow getting messed up?


Oh yeah, I've seen lots of romanisation hehe. Over here it mostly happens only on menus in Chinese restaurants - Chinese characters with their romanisation below like "Peking Duck" - for foreigners. People spelling out the pronounciation of words in dialects make things even more confusing e.g. shifu/sifu.


I guess I should rephrase my question, which wasn't clear at all before, what dialect is 'Kou Shu' from?

BTW, I'm still looking for the exact quote that Jet Li has said.
Couple articles where he said he didn't like doing MA films, also abhoring fighting...I remember that live interview though.



You mean the same lack of magnitude that your previously stated anecdotal evidence has?

Exactly. So glad you caught on.

savdout209
10-14-2004, 11:45 PM
Hey Piz, give this one a looksie. http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=54453

crazedwombat
10-15-2004, 06:11 AM
Pizdof, i took aikido after learning both styles of TKD and in all the time of learning them i never touched the internal side, never knew about it until aikido so never had a chance. and i havent asked yet in BJJ. and i still work out like normal because i want to build. i can fix the energies when i reconcentrate fully in MA. why i do it? why do nurses smoke when they know its bad for them? Besides I was just talking theory, I'm not THAT in tune yet with the internal to know and feel the difference. like i said before ,it takes a lifetime :)

dissipate
10-15-2004, 07:01 AM
I guess I should rephrase my question, which wasn't clear at all before, what dialect is 'Kou Shu' from?
Never heard or seen it used before, Mandarin I *think*.

PizDoff
10-19-2004, 02:28 AM
Heheh, ok, thanks.

Mannequin
10-19-2004, 01:20 PM
Reading this thread has definitely got me pumped up. Damn I wanna take Kenpo again.

fixationdarknes
10-19-2004, 07:18 PM
Did Shane post his thing yet about the martial arts training thing?