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basil
10-12-2004, 12:47 PM
Now I wouldn't post something like this if I didn't have personal experience.

Please be careful of how much protein you take in, especially in liquid form. I was taking near 350-400g a day, and at least half was in shake form. Well, I had a physical recently that told me I had renal insufficiency (kidney failure). This is due to the fact that protein is filtered thru the kidney. Protein in a liquid form is the hardest substance (next to cement or some such) for your kidneys to process. So the more of this type of mix you consume, the harder your kidneys have to work, which leads to kidney failure.

I'm due to take another blood test in a week or two to see if my renal levels have come back up. But this was the first thing my doctor told me.

Stupendous
10-12-2004, 12:54 PM
How long had you been doing that to your body?

Any diet change should probably be followed up with a physical sometime after to make sure you aren't damaging your body.

ryuage
10-12-2004, 01:07 PM
that sure is a lot of protein :)

Rik-s
10-12-2004, 01:20 PM
Thankx for sharing that m8, sure there are a few peeps out there including myself who can benefit for this sort of advice, even to avoid making the same mistake.

Currently i'm only on about 200-220g of protien p/d only 60 to 80 of which is from shakes depending on how my days went. But i'll definatly be making sure i dont overdo it and get a physical booked soon.

geoffgarcia
10-12-2004, 01:26 PM
what types of symptoms were you having that led you to go to the dr?
or was it just a standard physical? what type of test did he have to run to determine you had this problem?

Is any liquid protein bad? I assume milk would be bad also then? because whey/casein is just dried and seperated milk

I'm guessin moderation is the key? 400 sounds like an awful lot, especially when most studies show that .9g per pound is the limit on whats useful

Kiaran
10-12-2004, 01:43 PM
don't worry basil, something similar happen to me a couple years ago. Mine wasn't due to taking too much protein, but I had a very high blood-protein count. Doctor got a little nervous and made me do a 24 hr piss collection, a couple more blood tests and another piss collection. Went and visited a nephrologist, who was really cool and he told me not to worry, but to get regular tests done every year (just to be safe and watch for changes). Turns out, my problem was due to a huge amount of cratinine clearance going on in my body (this is a byproduct of muscles). Last time i had my checkup, I hadn't lifted in about 1 month, and everything was perfectly normal again. Since I've been lifting a lot lately, I'm sure I'd do poorly on the test now.

Anyway that's my input, sounds like you've got a little bigger problem. That's a ton of protein you were taking. You've probably already stopped that dosage. Get an appointment with a nephrologist (kidney specialist) if your doc hasn't already told you to.

ElPietro
10-12-2004, 01:47 PM
If you are taking protein and creatine regulalry, in large amounts, you will have excess creatnine excretion via urine.

Doctors use creatnine to diagnose Kidney problems. But it is not indicitive in and of itself of kidney problems. If you weren't taking excessive protein or creatine, and your creatnine levels were high, then there would be cause for concern. But if you are taking these supplements, you are only impairing one of their methods of detection of kidney problems, but probably not actually causing a problem.

Best bet is to keep testing, and maybe ease up a bit, since 400g is probably somewhat overboard anyway.

basil
10-13-2004, 06:22 AM
I was doing this for almost 6 months. And the weird thing is, I didn't notice any symptoms before. I got the physical because I was about to transfer insurance to a different company. But after I stopped taking liquid protein, I started pissing every 12 minutes. Well, slight exageration, but compared to what I was doing before, it seemed excessive. But I was reassured that this was normal.

A standard blood test will tell you if your renal levels are adequate or not. As far as creatine, I don't supplement that. Any creatine in my body comes from diet and whatever was added to my shakes, which I have since quit taking.

As far as milk, adult humans aren't designed to digest milk. However, symbiotic bacteria (Acidophilus) helps break down the lactose and protein before it gets into the bloodstream. This makes it much easier on the kidneys to separate and process, so milk is fine.

But Geoffgarcia hit it on the head: moderation is the key. 400g/day of protein is stupid, and so was I for taking it. Anything in moderation is ok, and anything overdone is harmful.

ElPietro
10-13-2004, 07:59 AM
Well creatine is an amino, which is what protein consists off, I'm not sure how much you take versus how much make break down to creatine, but this could be it as well. Remember that protein supplements are still treated as food by your body.

Relentless
10-13-2004, 08:19 AM
where's borris or rene to provide the expert analysis on this?

firas
10-13-2004, 12:04 PM
drinking lots of water helps to ease your kidneys' workload. it's one of those things whereby if you do everything in small bits you're a lot less likely to cause any damage. so SIP water all the time, keep a bottle with you. gulping down masses of water at once does nothing. eat small meals and as everyone else has already said 400g WTF!!!!

a good method i use, if your urine smells or has anything more than a yellow tinge you need more water in your system. not the most sophisticated of measuring techniques but it works fine for me :cool:

txterry
10-13-2004, 12:24 PM
Basil,
Glad you started this thread to inform some of the guys in here.
I wince when I hear the guys at GNC advise their customers to take at least 6-8 scoops of whey protein a day. They must do it to sell their stuff more.

I take anything between 1-3 scoops (24-75g) a day. Complimented with food, Im getting over 150g of protein in my body. At 168lbs its sufficient to build muscle even on the hard days.

Vido
10-13-2004, 01:28 PM
Just another reason to eat whole food over shakes as far as I'm concerned.

Dirt
10-14-2004, 01:09 AM
As far as milk, adult humans aren't designed to digest milk. However, symbiotic bacteria (Acidophilus) helps break down the lactose and protein before it gets into the bloodstream. This makes it much easier on the kidneys to separate and process, so milk is fine.


No offense, but don't talk out of your ass and create paranoia (whether it is your intention or not). Humans are designed (born capable) to digest milk, that's why we produce lactase in our small intestines. Lactase hydrolyzes lactose into glucose and galactose which our bodies can also deal with.



Protein in a liquid form is the hardest substance (next to cement or some such) for your kidneys to process. So the more of this type of mix you consume, the harder your kidneys have to work, which leads to kidney failure.


Although what happened to you sounds unfortunate, what you are saying is utter bull****. You are doing nothing more than spewing absurd misinformation. Your story reads more like an urban legend I could read on www.snopes.com than anything with a shred of scientific merit. If I had the time or desire, I'd go through this thread and reply to each of your statements, but I can sum up the only reasonable part of your message as this:

Everything in moderation.

basil
10-21-2004, 08:13 AM
No offense, but don't talk out of your ass and create paranoia (whether it is your intention or not). Humans are designed (born capable) to digest milk, that's why we produce lactase in our small intestines. Lactase hydrolyzes lactose into glucose and galactose which our bodies can also deal with.



Although what happened to you sounds unfortunate, what you are saying is utter bull****. You are doing nothing more than spewing absurd misinformation. Your story reads more like an urban legend I could read on www.snopes.com than anything with a shred of scientific merit. If I had the time or desire, I'd go through this thread and reply to each of your statements, but I can sum up the only reasonable part of your message as this:

Everything in moderation.

First off, how dare you say I'm speaking out of my ass and that I'm spewing misinformation. Who the hell are you?

Second, humans are born capable of digesting milk, true, but lose that ability without a symbiotic relationship later in life (shortly after breast-feeding age).

Third, my "scientific merit" is 4 doctors with over a hundred years of combined medical training and expertise. Now you want to call that bull****, go ahead, but all that does is make you look ignorant, which apparently you seem to be of such things.

And lastly, I suggest you show a little respect.

Dirt
10-21-2004, 01:14 PM
Scientific merit is not 4 doctors with a 100 combined years of practice. Go find me one clinical study stating that "Protein in a liquid form is the hardest substance (next to cement or some such) for your kidneys to process". Actually get your doctors to explain the reason for such a comparison, I'd love to be enlightened.

As far as your thoughts on milk go, what you said is partially true in your second post. Expression for the gene coding for lactase diminishes over time (particularly after babies are weened from breast feeding peaking around 5-10 years of age), but for many people in the western world it never decreases to a point where it would lead to lactose intolerance (this presumes you're from northern european ancestry where lactase persistence is most common).

With regard to showing you respect, I would've done so from the start had your first post not contained nonsense.

basil
10-21-2004, 01:32 PM
First of all, you show respect, regardless.

Second, there is no need for a clinical trial. Protein in water is the hardest substance for your kidneys to filter and digest. Period. Not studies, no comparisons. Just chemistry and fact.

Third, I'd like to know your credentials, that you can speak with such certainty about things, and be completely and confidently wrong.

Anthony
10-21-2004, 01:38 PM
Dirt and basil: tone it down a notch, no need to get hostile because you have different opinions. :)

Now, for my opinion. I bulk on 5000-5500 calories a day. If I were to consume the "recommended" amount of protein, I'd have to fill 4700 calories between carbs and fat. Even if I split that in half between carbs and fat, I'd be consuming almost 600g of carbs and 261g of fat. Pretty silly, if you ask me.

Also, this topic has been discussed many times before and I don't think any studies have been shown to prove it one way or another. So, feel free to discuss your opinions, but realize they are just opinions. :D

Alex.V
10-21-2004, 01:50 PM
Basil, as much as Dirt's lack of respect irritates me (tone it down, dude), he's correct. As correct as your doctors are incorrect. "Protein in liquid form"... that's an absurd statement. Protein is a chain of amino acids, nothing more nothing less. Whether it's in suspension or dry, a protein is the same basic molecule. The basic structure of protein in whey is the same as the protein in chicken, the aminos are the same, the only differences are in peptide length (on average, shorter in the whey, faster to digest) and sequence. It's hard to believe a statement when an important part of it is almost laughable in how ridiculous (read: a complete fabrication) it is.

Kidney failure is not caused by excessive work. Kidney failure is caused by toxins, genetic predisposition, illness, age, injury, obstructions, etc. The simple action of processing protein will not cause a healthy kidney to fail, simply because there is nothing intrinsic to protein that will damage the kidney during processing. True, chronic, excessive rise in uric acid levels can be damaging, but the systemic damage will be noticed long before the kidneys fail.

There is no hard and fast upper limit to the amount of any macronutrient that can be consumed. Doctors often know very little about cutting edge nutrition. Why? Because it's seen as a light science. They simply recommend patients follow the food pyramid or some such, then move on from there to address other problems. Normally, this is fine... the body knows what to do with what you put in it, in moderation. When stumped, though, they jump to conclusions, and believe that correlation proves causality. You can't blame them for that, doctors are human and don't have infinite amounts of time on their hands. However, good luck finding ANY definitive information out there that confirms that excess protein will DAMAGE healthy kidneys in an otherwise healthy individual and lead to ARI or ARF.

My advice: tell your doctor to keep looking for other causes. Examine the rest of your diet. But for god's sake, don't keep saying that junk about liquid protein; often if one part of an explanation is completely spurious, the rest would seem to be as well.

_-_v_-_
10-21-2004, 01:52 PM
[insert "i'm with stupid" emitocon here]

*is on strict emoticon boycott*

Frozenmoses
10-21-2004, 01:53 PM
Belial is teh smawt.

ElPietro
10-21-2004, 02:23 PM
Lol, check out the meathead with all the smartsy fartsy talk.

Who says gorillas can't be doctors. :p

Vido
10-21-2004, 07:34 PM
Protein in a liquid form is the hardest substance (next to cement or some such) for your kidneys to process.

So Basil, if you ground up all of your meals and drank them as shakes, you're telling me this would make it tougher on your kidneys? :rolleyes:


Third, I'd like to know your credentials, that you can speak with such certainty about things, and be completely and confidently wrong.

Anyone who has taken an introductory biochem class has the "credentials" to prove you wrong. The fact that you put so much stock into what doctors have to say proves you don't even really understand what the term "credentials" means.


Also, this topic has been discussed many times before and I don't think any studies have been shown to prove it one way or another. So, feel free to discuss your opinions, but realize they are just opinions. :D

How are they opinions? One person is expressing fact; the other, fiction.

txterry
10-21-2004, 09:23 PM
LOL .. Vido you were correct about yourself .. you are *brutally* honest :shoot:

Anthony
10-22-2004, 04:31 AM
How are they opinions? One person is expressing fact; the other, fiction.

Because there are no studies that proves either side beyond a reasonable doubt. Do I think 400g of protein causes kidney damage? Nope. But that's based on my own experience/eating/bloodwork.