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View Full Version : I HATE to do this- Dynamic Bench Question



RickTheDestroyer
11-04-2004, 01:10 PM
Okay, let me apologize first off by saying I'm really sorry for starting a new thread about dynamic benching, westside, etc. I know that there are a ton already and nearly everything has been covered thoroughly. I just have two simple questions, and I think I'd be wading through articles and threads for an hour just to find the answers.
First off- with the dynamic benching- do I pause at the bottom, or just crank out three reps as fast as possible?
Second- How fast are these supposed to be? I can't throw 60% up incredibly easily, but I can throw a lighter load (maybe 45%?) up as though there's no bar in my hands at all- is it okay for the weight to slow the rep down a little, or should I go lighter than 60%? I know that bar speed is supposed to be high, but how long should one rep take?
Thanks, and sorry sorry sorry for making a new thread.

dawk20
11-04-2004, 01:42 PM
don't pause at the bottom.....maybe start around 50% bar wt for starting out...are you using bands or chains, that's really the purpose of doin the speed work

RickTheDestroyer
11-04-2004, 02:09 PM
Okay, thanks a bunch.
I'm not using bands or chains as of yet- I'm really new to the whole westisde thing and I wanted to give a basic split a shot before I started adding anything fancy.
There are some chains at my gym, should I throw them on for my DE day?

SalahG
11-04-2004, 02:14 PM
You're DE Bench days need to be worked in a wave pattern. On week one use 50% of your 1 rep max for 8 sets of 3 reps, on week two use 55%, on week three use 60%, and repeat for 3 cycles. Than you max out on regular bench press on your ME day, and use your new max to figure out your percentages from there.

When doing DE Bench, stay in control, but move the bar as fast as possible on the way down and on the way up. There should be no pausing.

SalahG
11-04-2004, 02:15 PM
Okay, thanks a bunch.
I'm not using bands or chains as of yet- I'm really new to the whole westisde thing and I wanted to give a basic split a shot before I started adding anything fancy.
There are some chains at my gym, should I throw them on for my DE day?
You don't need chains yet, so don't worry about them until you've done some more training.

Paul Stagg
11-04-2004, 03:57 PM
You also don't need to wave the DE bench, and you don't need to use bands and chains.

The point of the DE training is to build speed - so you want the bar to move as fast as possible. There are a couple of opinions on exactly how to do the reps, from nearly dripping the bar and pressing it, to lowering quickly, under control, and exploding up. I don't pause when doing DE benching unless I'm working up - on heavier sets after speed work, I pause and explode to see how my speed is with heavier weights using contest form.

SalahG
11-04-2004, 04:03 PM
You also don't need to wave the DE bench, and you don't need to use bands and chains.

The point of the DE training is to build speed - so you want the bar to move as fast as possible. There are a couple of opinions on exactly how to do the reps, from nearly dripping the bar and pressing it, to lowering quickly, under control, and exploding up. I don't pause when doing DE benching unless I'm working up - on heavier sets after speed work, I pause and explode to see how my speed is with heavier weights using contest form.
I disagree about not waving your DE days. On the Westside Seminar Tape they say waving is essential.

Isaac Wilkins
11-04-2004, 05:12 PM
And you'll get guys that train at West Side like Jim Wendler who says that he hasn't changed his DE bench weight in several years, despite increasing his max.

It's all about speed. Faster is generally better.

Adam
11-04-2004, 05:50 PM
I'm with borris.
I've had the same DE weight for well over 2 years but my max has gone from ~235 to 300+. I use 135 for speed sets.
Speed is king.
I also dont wave my bench weights, i do on squats though.
The reps are done touch and go as fast as possible, while keeping decent form.

rpffly
11-04-2004, 06:01 PM
Would speed work translate at all to other pushes?

For instance speed work (even possibly using DB instead of a bar) on incline and even shoulder presses. I never see those options discussed and was wondering if it's worth it for those movements?

SalahG
11-04-2004, 06:04 PM
The only problem I see with not changing the weight you use on your DE days, is that when you first start out lifting, let's say you bench 300 lbs. So you use about 150 lbs. for your DE Bench day. 5 years later you bench 800 lbs., I think you would have wanted to increase the weight you use on your DE bench day.

RickTheDestroyer
11-04-2004, 06:19 PM
Man, if I could bench 800 in five years I'd be pretty damn satisfied.

Isaac Wilkins
11-04-2004, 08:42 PM
The only problem I see with not changing the weight you use on your DE days, is that when you first start out lifting, let's say you bench 300 lbs. So you use about 150 lbs. for your DE Bench day. 5 years later you bench 800 lbs., I think you would have wanted to increase the weight you use on your DE bench day.

That's an extreme example, and yes, you would. However, for long stretches of time one could easily use the same weight. Also, in regards to what Wendler was speaking of, most WSB newbies start off using too much weight. Even 50% is too much for some, because they're still slow. They grow into being fast with that weight.

Adam
11-05-2004, 01:05 AM
Not enough people are faast enough on DE day. WSB used to recommend 60%(still do to newbies i believe) I've never seen anyone do 60% very explosively. When you start doing speed work dont even worry about the percents. 50-60 is just a guideline.
rpffly - doing speed work is pretty much excercise specific in the area of which you will get stronger. Ex. Doing speed db bench will get you stronger at db bench, but thats about it. Its also not the best idea to try speed work with db's. You'll be trying to do the reps as fast as possible and with db's it can get dangerouse real quick.

PowerManDL
11-05-2004, 05:56 AM
Not to mention that bands and chains will change the speed equation entirely. A speed bench with doubled minis is a whole different animal than a speed bench with straight weight.

What it comes down to is that there's as many ways as you want to alter then %'s. If you want to use a 3-week wave, do it. If you want to keep the same weight, do it. Hell if you want to drop the weight to 30-40% and add a ****load of band tension on occasion, that'll work too.

The point is that the "orthodox" guidelines are just that. There's plenty of wiggle-room in the WSB template.

Paul Stagg
11-05-2004, 06:54 AM
I disagree about not waving your DE days. On the Westside Seminar Tape they say waving is essential.

Not on the version of the tape I have. They talk about waving DE squatting, not benching, although they have said that there isn't a thing wrong with trying it.

Paul Stagg
11-05-2004, 07:01 AM
Not to mention that bands and chains will change the speed equation entirely. A speed bench with doubled minis is a whole different animal than a speed bench with straight weight.

What it comes down to is that there's as many ways as you want to alter then %'s. If you want to use a 3-week wave, do it. If you want to keep the same weight, do it. Hell if you want to drop the weight to 30-40% and add a ****load of band tension on occasion, that'll work too.

The point is that the "orthodox" guidelines are just that. There's plenty of wiggle-room in the WSB template.

Well said.

For someone just starting out, I would stick with the basics - start at 60% for 10 sets of 3 and adjust from there. I happen to use 60%, and it's worked for me, but 55% might have worked better - I'll know when I try it.

Also, don't worry so much about the small details, worry about getting the big stuff right, which is learning how to identify your weaknesses, and learning how to improve them. Knowing that you need to improve your lockout and figuring out how to do it is far more important than the % you use on DE bench day, as long as you are fast.

Max-Mex
11-05-2004, 09:33 AM
I still don't understand how doing a quick descent can help with your overall bench. I can see the quick ascent will help. Can anyone explain this or have links/articles that explains why such a think works?

Adam
11-05-2004, 09:53 AM
quicker decent will increase the force needed to reverse the movement.

SalahG
11-05-2004, 10:52 AM
Not on the version of the tape I have. They talk about waving DE squatting, not benching, although they have said that there isn't a thing wrong with trying it.Than we're watching two different tapes. I just re-watched it last night. They say clearly that you should wave your percentages in 3 week microcycles.

Paul Stagg
11-05-2004, 01:06 PM
The Westside seminar tapes from elitefts? The one with Dave Tate giving the seminar. The one that comes with the big book?

I didn't think they had another version - or I could be remembering wrong.

Regardless, if you look at what they say at elitefts, their advice is pretty clear.

ElPietro
11-05-2004, 02:32 PM
The only problem I see with not changing the weight you use on your DE days, is that when you first start out lifting, let's say you bench 300 lbs. So you use about 150 lbs. for your DE Bench day. 5 years later you bench 800 lbs., I think you would have wanted to increase the weight you use on your DE bench day.

If you increase your max bench and you are lifting a percentage of that max on DE day do you not think that your DE bench will increase? I'm pretty sure that's how percentages work.

Just to add my experience, I've never read anything from westside or elite on wave percentages on DE bench, only on DE squat.

SalahG
11-05-2004, 02:53 PM
The Westside seminar tapes from elitefts? The one with Dave Tate giving the seminar. The one that comes with the big book?

I didn't think they had another version - or I could be remembering wrong.

Regardless, if you look at what they say at elitefts, their advice is pretty clear.My point was that they prescribe waving your percentages in the tape. If you don't want to, you don't have to. Look it up in the sample training program they give, and on the tape. Both say that waving is a part of the WestSide template.

RickTheDestroyer
11-05-2004, 03:04 PM
Okay, I'm going to be a dumbass again...
Is it the same deal with the DE box squats? Should they just be turbo-squats or should the focus be on stopping briefly at the bottom and then powering out of the hole (which is what I thought the whole point was)?

Adam
11-05-2004, 03:13 PM
pause brifly at the bottom. look near the bottom of my article andd i have box squats explained in detail.

article in my signature

RickTheDestroyer
11-05-2004, 03:34 PM
:) I've read your article several times already, and it has been a big help.
I just didn't know if the point of the box was more to make sure the depth was right, or to kill all momentum so you'd have to power out of the bottom. Although I figured it was the latter, I wanted to make sure.

Adam
11-05-2004, 03:49 PM
Its multipurpose. It verifies that your going deep enough, and then you sit back on it, stay tight and just release your hip flexors(aka stop pushing your feet outwards/spreading the floor) make sure you keep every other muscle contracted though, keep your abs and other surrounding muscles flexed. Then explode off the box, not just 'fast' but explode as fast as you can.
IMO on DE days being explosive is the most important thing, it caries over to being fast. So on DE bench theres no pause, just down and once you touch chest/1/2"above drive as hard as you can. DE squat the decent doesn't have to be as quick because your going to pause on the box for a split second. After that split second though drive upwards as hard as you can ie. be explosive;)

RickTheDestroyer
11-05-2004, 04:18 PM
Well I'm certainly not particularly explosive yet (especially in some of the later sets), but I'll get there.
Thanks for the help.

Newfie D
11-08-2004, 11:57 AM
to add to your confusion, i'm sure wendler or tate have said somewhere that it's ok to pause on the bottom of the speed bench if it helps keep good form. some try to get 3 reps in 3 secs & the bar is flailing all over the place. maybe i read this in the beginner mistakes over at elitefts.com, but i honestly can't remember.

Isaac Wilkins
11-08-2004, 12:32 PM
to add to your confusion, i'm sure wendler or tate have said somewhere that it's ok to pause on the bottom of the speed bench if it helps keep good form. some try to get 3 reps in 3 secs & the bar is flailing all over the place. maybe i read this in the beginner mistakes over at elitefts.com, but i honestly can't remember.

You are correct. If one's form is awful, then it's better to do one rep fast, pause, do another, etc.

Newfie D
11-08-2004, 07:41 PM
You are correct. If one's form is awful, then it's better to do one rep fast, pause, do another, etc.

actually Borris, you are correct, i am probably wrong in the 'pause at the bottom' part. pause after each rep like you said. i can't find anything on "pause at the bottom"...

here's the 'beginner mistakes' excerpt:

4. Using time as your guideline

Too many times people use the "3 second rule" as if it were written in stone. For those that don't know, Louie Simmons timed competition bench presses and they were all around 3 seconds or slightly above. Louie knew that explosive strength is best developed around 60% of one's max. Louie timed his lifters at 60% and found out that they could perform 3 reps in about 3 seconds. This is why 3 reps are used on this day. Unfortunately, too many lifters want to rush their reps to fall within this time frame. This leads to reps that are not locked out, sloppy form and a complete waste of time. Remember that time, like the percentages, is a guideline. If I feel as if I am rushing through my reps, I will remind myself to perform each rep independently. I will also make sure to tell my training partners to remind me as I prepare to do my set and during my set. This always leads to better form and better speed.

Phil Harrington
11-09-2004, 11:42 AM
Okay, let me apologize first off by saying I'm really sorry for starting a new thread about dynamic benching, westside, etc. I know that there are a ton already and nearly everything has been covered thoroughly. I just have two simple questions, and I think I'd be wading through articles and threads for an hour just to find the answers.
First off- with the dynamic benching- do I pause at the bottom, or just crank out three reps as fast as possible?
Second- How fast are these supposed to be? I can't throw 60% up incredibly easily, but I can throw a lighter load (maybe 45%?) up as though there's no bar in my hands at all- is it okay for the weight to slow the rep down a little, or should I go lighter than 60%? I know that bar speed is supposed to be high, but how long should one rep take?
Thanks, and sorry sorry sorry for making a new thread. WORK ONFORM AND DRIVE THINK SPEED EVER SET ,PHIL HARRINGTON