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Vido
11-06-2004, 01:30 PM
Ok, this might be worded poorly so bare with me. It's my understanding that the brain needs approximately 100g carbs (I assume varying on an individual basis) to function optimally. Now, this is for someone with normal levels of glycogen I would think. How do things change if one is glycogen depleted? Will the first 100g of carbs taken in go to fueling the brain, or to glycogen replenishment, or a combination of both?

What I'm really getting at is how many carbs do you think would be the minimum I need to take in to make sure my brain is functioning optimally (for an exam I have to write soon) given I'm on a severely restricted calorie, no-carb diet and probably quite depleted?

Vido
11-06-2004, 01:38 PM
I meant 100g glucose, but for all intents and purposes, it's really the same thing.

ozzyman
11-06-2004, 01:41 PM
if you are on a "no carb diet" intake of carbs will will prolly go straight to glycogen stores and you will probably gain back 1/2 if not all the weight you've lost on the diet..... Maybe try slow burning carbs such as from green veggies and whole wheat.... hopefully someone more knowledgeable can help.

ryuage
11-06-2004, 02:19 PM
i believe in a glycogen depleted state, any incoming glucose would preferrentially be shuttled into muscle glycogen. I dont know where you saw the 100g carbs thing, maybe your thinking only need 100g to be in an anabolic state? but ya to answer your question..

Vido
11-06-2004, 02:35 PM
My buddy explained it to me over MSN and I tend to trust his knowledge on these types of matters. It would appear that you are both wrong, and that the brain is the preferential destination for the incoming glucose. He explained it extremely in-depthly, and to summarize (without using all of the scientific jargon he used) I'd be best to eat a good 200g carbs anyway, due to the fact that some of the metabolic processes are hindered by my extremely depleted state.

JSully
11-06-2004, 02:48 PM
It is to my understanding that glycogen recompensation takes priority over fat storage, but not the brain. In any case, the brain has to be satisified first. If you think of it in terms of the brain switching to keytones for energy, it does that last right? Well, when you start taking in carbs again it would work backwards and go towards the brain first. As soon as the brain is satisfied, which it wouldn't take much, then everything will go to glycogen recompensation. And if you only take in 200g carbs, that will hardly refill glycogen storage to its max so you will still be in a calorie deficit and still be burning fat.

I suggest doing what you're saying, taking in the 200g carbs, then head right back into the PSMF for 3-4 days and then do a full carb load. I think you'd get maximal results with that.

In either case let me know what ya do.

Scott S
11-06-2004, 03:02 PM
If you are in ketosis (and I'm guessing you are), your brain will be running off ketone bodies rather than glucose.

Vido
11-06-2004, 03:09 PM
LittleJake: I'll definitely keep you informed of my plans in my journal.

Scott S: You're correct, but I am not in ketosis, as I've only been on this latest low calorie cycle for 2.5 days now...I'm pretty sure it takes longer than that to hit ketosis.

JSully
11-06-2004, 03:15 PM
LittleJake: I'll definitely keep you informed of my plans in my journal.

Scott S: You're correct, but I am not in ketosis, as I've only been on this latest low calorie cycle for 2.5 days now...I'm pretty sure it takes longer than that to hit ketosis.

Actually, as soon as you're completely glycogen depleted you can hit ketosis.

Example: Say you decide to cut your carbs completely Sunday night @ 5pm. Do a little cardio before you go to sleep.
Wake up and do a little more cardio.
Do a full body glycogen depletion workout, with a teeny bit o' cardio afterwards.
Then grab some ketosticks and I'd be willing to bet you'll be in ketosis. It all depends on how fast you get the glycogen out of your system. If you do as the UD2 says and do it all in one day, you're looking at 12sets per bodypart 15-20 reps per set. Combined with the cardio as stated you will use up all glycogen and your body will most likely switch to ketones sometime during the latter cardio session.

That is at least what I understand from Lyle's scientific specifics on his CKD.

I would suggest getting some ketostix now to see if you are in ketosis. They're about 5-10 bux at a local pharmacy. If you are in ketosis, the 200g will be great to get you up and thinking normally again and still hinder much glycogen recompensation. If you aren't in ketosis, then it will probably only take 50-100g to get you feeling normal. Personally I would just eat a normal meal and that's it: Say possibly a foot long chicken sub w/whatever you like on it and a couple white chocolate macadamia nut cookies from Subaway. Mmmmm.. sounds tasty actually!

Are you wanting the carbs for a test? or are you wanting to aid your studying? If both then just have another regular meal before your test. Possibly 2 cans of tuna, 1/2 cup white rice(beforecooking), and 1-2tbsp of lowfat mayo. That's a tasty combo and filling too.

Also, if at all possible, don't drag the 200g carbs out the entire day. Just have one or 2 meals, so that you limit yourself by your appetite. Maybe just eat until your satisfied but not full. You know what to do man! LOL, why am I suggesting anything?

Vido
11-06-2004, 04:12 PM
Actually, as soon as you're completely glycogen depleted you can hit ketosis.

Example: Say you decide to cut your carbs completely Sunday night @ 5pm. Do a little cardio before you go to sleep.
Wake up and do a little more cardio.
Do a full body glycogen depletion workout, with a teeny bit o' cardio afterwards.
Then grab some ketosticks and I'd be willing to bet you'll be in ketosis. It all depends on how fast you get the glycogen out of your system. If you do as the UD2 says and do it all in one day, you're looking at 12sets per bodypart 15-20 reps per set. Combined with the cardio as stated you will use up all glycogen and your body will most likely switch to ketones sometime during the latter cardio session.

That is at least what I understand from Lyle's scientific specifics on his CKD.


Well, clearly it depends on your starting glycogen levels, but I'd really be surprised if what you suggested depleted all of your glycogen so quickly. I could be wrong though, and the only way to really tell is with ketostix.




Are you wanting the carbs for a test? or are you wanting to aid your studying? If both then just have another regular meal before your test. Possibly 2 cans of tuna, 1/2 cup white rice(beforecooking), and 1-2tbsp of lowfat mayo. That's a tasty combo and filling too.

Yeah, I want the carbs for both studying and the actual test. I've been doing the readings the last couple of days (obviously I don't keep up with them during the semester :bash: ) and I don't seem to be having any trouble as of yet, but tomorrow when I really want to make sure I'm retaining key information I think the carbs would be beneficial.


Also, if at all possible, don't drag the 200g carbs out the entire day. Just have one or 2 meals, so that you limit yourself by your appetite. Maybe just eat until your satisfied but not full. You know what to do man! LOL, why am I suggesting anything?

Thanks for the suggestions. I will post my course of action later on tonight in my journal after I workout.

Titanium_Jim
11-06-2004, 04:26 PM
Heh. Eat a good meal before you go, then have a little bit of sugary candy right before the test.

Scott S
11-06-2004, 05:23 PM
Scott S: You're correct, but I am not in ketosis, as I've only been on this latest low calorie cycle for 2.5 days now...I'm pretty sure it takes longer than that to hit ketosis.

If you are cutting carbs completely, and are eating low calories, and training, I bet you are. Or at least are close to it. Liver glycogen drains out within 24 hours of no-carbs IIRC.

I'd actually recommend staying low-carb so your brain doesn't have to make the transition back. THe fuzziness is caused for the most part by switching fuels, and once you've been in ketosis for a few days, your head will clear up again. I've done Atkins-style no-carb diets before, and it lent a wonderful clarity and focus to my thinking once I had adjusted.

JSully
11-06-2004, 06:14 PM
Then again, it also depends on how much protein you're taking in. I read somewhere there's a 35% conversion of protein to glucose. I'm not in ketosis very often for this very reason. I'm taking in close to 300g protein a day. I have some ketostix and it says I'm BARELY in ketosis. I don't really care much about ketosis, but I still like to measure whether I'm in it or not, just for sh1ts and giggles.


I'd actually recommend staying low-carb so your brain doesn't have to make the transition back. THe fuzziness is caused for the most part by switching fuels, and once you've been in ketosis for a few days, your head will clear up again. I've done Atkins-style no-carb diets before, and it lent a wonderful clarity and focus to my thinking once I had adjusted.

I just felt like normal again when I got used to it.

Hockey66
11-06-2004, 06:26 PM
I feel like I'm in science class...



my head hurts.

JSully
11-06-2004, 06:35 PM
I feel like I'm in science class...



my head hurts.

Biology, get it straight.. :bash:

lol

JSully
11-06-2004, 07:27 PM
Between 5060% of protein becomes glucose and enters the bloodstream about 34 hours after eaten." Perhaps 5060% of protein goes through the process of gluconeogenesis in the liver, but virtually none of this glucose enters into the general circulation.

That is for diabetics, I can't find where it says for regular people. But I don't think that the protein effects would be much different.

Gluconeogenesis is the conversion of protein or fat molecules into glucose.
For those of you who didn't know.

Which is why the PSMF is TRUELY protein sparing. Because you are taking in "too much" protein. A percentage of the amount of protein you are ingesting is being converted to glucose which is what fuels you and which is why you stay out of ketosis in the PSMF. Come to think about it, the only time I ever enter ketosis on this diet (PSMF) is when I've had too little protein for the day. And because the fats are so low on this diet, its not very "safe" to be in ketosis because you aren't ingesting the necessary amounts of fat to be converted to ketones.

So, I think I was wrong. You SHOULDN'T be in ketosis. Hmmm...*still researching this subject on the 'net* Very interesting stuff.

BTW, if you decide to check out that webpage, scroll down to "High protein-Low carbohydrate diets" and then the following subject right after that, "Protein, satiety, and weigh loss".