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Severed Ties
11-16-2004, 12:13 PM
Public release date: 12-Nov-2004
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Contact: Grace Baynes
press@biomedcentral.com
44-207-631-9988
BioMed Central

Very low-carbohydrate diets work for men and upper body fat
Scientists say that low carbohydrate diets, like the Atkins and South Beach Diets, may actually be the best option for men who want to slim. New research, published this week in the Open Access journal, Nutrition & Metabolism, shows that over 70% of men lost more weight and fat on a low carbohydrate diet, despite eating more calories.
Jeff Volek and colleagues, from the University of Connecticut, also show for the first time that a low carbohydrate diet is much more effective in losing fat from the stomach and chest. Upper body fat carries "a greater health risk than fat stored in other regions of the body," say the authors. They found that fat loss in men was three-times greater in the trunk area, when they were on a low-carbohydrate regime compared to the low-fat diet. Nearly all participants in the study (12 of 15 men and 12 of 13 women) lost more fat on their upper body on the low- carbohydrate diet.

Fifteen overweight or obese men, and thirteen women, were randomly assigned to a very low carbohydrate diet or a low fat diet. After fifty days, they were switched to the other diet. 11 of the 15 men did better on the low carbohydrate diet, six lost greater than 10 lbs more on the low carbohydrate diet, and one subject lost almost 25 pounds more. Similar results were found for women although the results were less dramatic.

Volek and colleagues also looked at whether weight and fat loss were affected by what order the diets were done in. Their data seem to favour undertaking a low carbohydrate first, suggesting that those who have concerns about long term 'low carb' diets could follow a low carb diet first followed by a low fat diet.

There is much debate about the health implications of long-term use of low carbohydrate diets. Volek's lab, whose work is the first-ever to be funded in part by the Robert C. Atkins Foundation, has previously shown that low carbohydrate diets improve cardiovascular risk factors.

For more information about low carbohydrate diets read the review by well-known endocrinologist, Samy McFarlane, in Nutrition & Metabolism. Dr McFarlane reviews the new book, 'Atkins Diabetes Revolution', by Mary C. Vernon, M.D. and Jacqueline A. Eberstein, R.N. McFarlane and co-reviewer Surender Arora, M.D. found the book "sufficiently convincing to make us believe that some form of low carbohydrate intervention is worth investigating and should be considered by practitioners. The highly negative un-scientific response of critics, if anything, encourages us in this direction."

This press release is based on:

Comparison of energy-restricted very low-carbohydrate and low-fat diets on weight loss and body composition in overweight men and women Volek JS, Sharman MJ, Gómez AL, Judelson DA, Rubin MR, Watson G, Sokmen B, Silvestre R, French DN, and Kraemer WJ. Nutrition & Metabolism 2004, 1:12 (9 November 2004)

The article is freely available at http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/1/1/12.

Manveet
11-16-2004, 06:26 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but is this the first study published indicating that low carb diets result in more overall fat loss than low fat diets? Most other studies merely indicate that participants lost more overall weight (which could easily mean just more water).

Severed Ties
11-16-2004, 06:36 PM
Correct, I want to try and find the actual body comp changes for the study but this is the first study to my knowledge that looked at low fat vs low carb while tracking calories consumer by participants as well as fat and weight loss.

The first thing that stood out to me is....

"New research, published this week in the Open Access journal, Nutrition & Metabolism, shows that over 70% of men lost more weight and fat on a low carbohydrate diet, despite eating more calories. "

The Second thing which I observed when I was doing my macro nutrient experiments last year but was never able to find any research on....

"Jeff Volek and colleagues, from the University of Connecticut, also show for the first time that a low carbohydrate diet is much more effective in losing fat from the stomach and chest"

ST

Manveet
11-16-2004, 08:46 PM
I'm still a bit skeptical.

I mean I could understand the low carb group losing more fat if they were eating the same number of cals as the low fat group, but considering the fact that they were eating more cals, it just doesn't seem to make any sense, well at least thermodynamically.(spl)

waynis
11-16-2004, 09:25 PM
umm... were they exercising at the time? HOw much weight that they loss was actually fat? Adkins has proven to lose body weight but how much of that weight is actually fat and not just water and muscle. I wish the adkins fad would die already. Becuase of him people don't eat carbs and never have energy, always have headaches, lose muscle mass, can't get bigger. The negatives go on and on :rolleyes:

Vido
11-16-2004, 09:32 PM
HOw much weight that they loss was actually fat?

It doesn't give specific numbers, but it does say that the low carb group did lose more FAT (not just weight) than the low fat group.

not_big_enuf
11-16-2004, 10:40 PM
i'm curious... there's quite a few studies also that actually show that on the Atkins diet you actually lose LESS muscle than any other diet. i've read quite a few studies that claim this to be the case. of course, this is for the AVERAGE person who ISN'T heavily weight training, as this community is. for those people i don't know that Atkins, or continual low carb is the best answer because of the muscle/protein teardown... anyway... interesting article.

ozzyman
11-16-2004, 11:08 PM
Any studies on switching to a diet with complex slow burning carbs? wheat and such? also I would think that a low fat diet would essentially mean a low calorie diet since cutting fat out would drastically reduce calorie intake....

severed ties, I took lots of the info you gave in your posts in "I'm cutting. Should I still have cheatdays every weekend?" in diet and nutrition... I've only been cutting now for about 4 days and I definetly see a diff. we'll see what the next few weeks have in store.....

abwowang
11-16-2004, 11:13 PM
WELLL...
this just in..
Low-fat plans seem to work better at keeping weight off.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/diet.fitness/11/15/carb.backlash.ap/index.html

ozzyman
11-16-2004, 11:25 PM
They studied 2,700 people who entered the registry from 1995 through 2003. Their average age was 47, most were women, and they had lost an average of 72 pounds initially. Doctors compared their diets to see whether one type or another made a difference in how much weight they had lost and how much they had regained a year later.

All reported eating only about 1,400 calories a day



???????? correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't someone eating 1,400 Cal a day eventually stop losing weight due to starvation response.....

Vido
11-17-2004, 01:58 AM
Any studies on switching to a diet with complex slow burning carbs? wheat and such? also I would think that a low fat diet would essentially mean a low calorie diet since cutting fat out would drastically reduce calorie intake....

Cutting out any macronutrient can decrease caloric intake quite substantially (why you would want to drop protein is beyond me, but there's some odd ducks out there so you never know...). Take a look at the typical Western diet though (or what the diet SHOULD look like based on recommendations by the food and drug administration...) and chances are it's already fairly low in fat. Therefore, cutting out carbs will actually have a larger impact on calories even though they are only 4 cals/g because we, as a society, eat so much more of them. However, it's not like someone on an Atkins-type diet couldn't eat 5K cals/day, so you still have to monitor your portions.

In addition, you should be eating "complex slow burning carbs" anyway, so I don't think there would be many studies done in this area.

Severed Ties
11-17-2004, 06:18 PM
severed ties, I took lots of the info you gave in your posts in "I'm cutting. Should I still have cheatdays every weekend?" in diet and nutrition... I've only been cutting now for about 4 days and I definetly see a diff. we'll see what the next few weeks have in store.....

Unless your getting ready for a show you should have cheat days on any diet. The value of them really depends on what method you use to diet. I compete so I use a number of different types of diets throughout the year. When restricting carbs during the week on a CKD, TKD, UD2 or consuming them solely post workout it's more important on these types of diets to have a high carb refeed/cheat day once a week. When using a isocaloric diet with some kind of 40/30/30 or 40/40/20 split because it takes longer for glycogen stores to really become depleted refeed/cheat days are only really needed every once every 2-3 weeks. That said I find a cheat day can help from a psychological prospective so people have more success sticking to a diet longer if they have a cheat day once per week. Conversely cheat days are less necessary in the beginning of a diet so if someone is making great progress they don't have to take one.

The main idea is to try and make dieting as painless as possible. By never feeling deprived and that you CAN have ANY food you want in an important mindset that brings about success. When you have this mindset you are more apt to make better eating choices NOW because you know you can still have that chocolate cake but you will CHOOSE when you want to slow down your progress to enjoy it. Think about that mindset vs the mindset of your "not allowed to eat that" or you "can't have that" or all the food you enjoy is "off limits" these negative mindsets about dieting will being about failure before you even start. As humans if we think we're deprived of something we desire/crave/think about it that much more. If your thinking about that slice of pizza you can't have every hour your awake instead of CHOOSING to have it at a later time your setting yourself up for failure.

I'm kind of overlapping into the perception of power in your mind. But if you follow along you should understand that dieting invokes a physiological, psychological, and emotional response in people. The physiological aspects can be handled with a well-constructed diet. The psychological and emotional responses to dieting are programmed in your brain and shaped by your beliefs and outside forces like family, friends, co-workers, media, social standards, perceptions, life style, community...ect. These forces in respect to dieting are in 95% of cases negative.

Think about it...when was the last time you decided to go on a diet and were so excited and overjoyed that people around you though you had just won the lotto? When was the last time you decided to loss some flab and got so happy you had to start the next day? When was the last time you were watching the game with friends and they gave you a standing ovation for passing on the pizza and wings??? When was the last time that girl at the bar went home with you for asking if she wanted a water also???

The truth is our society is a big paradox. Everyone wants to have a lean body yet obesity rules as the majority. The real paradox is that should you get off you a$$ and do something like go on a diet you can expect ZERO support from those around you. In fact the majority of the time you can expect several jokes to be made at your expense and count on your co-workers to drop by your cubical to feed there gluttonous bodies with McDonald, and Krispy crèmes. These are the things your up against on a diet.

Ever wonder why so many obese people say they feel helpless at losing weight? Well in a sense they are. Information that addresses the physiological aspect of dieting is widely available and most obese people understand why they are obese yet claim they feel powerless. Will power is one method of overcoming the obstacles set by your psychological and emotional response to dieting. The truth is few people have the will power necessary to overcome these states. Which is why people who put on a very large amount of weight tend to never take it off.

The solution is in the power of perception or keeping your personal power while on a diet. This technique is also called "reframing" because we are going to take a step back and change the way we perceive dieting. Take a moment to think about this. In what situation do you KEEP your power and/or control on a diet?

1- When you want to lose a few pounds so you go on some diet you found on the internet by some guy who says your not allowed to eat foods that start with the letter "T","C""I","M" and "S". Additionally you can't consume carbs after 3:27pm and the only carbs your allowed are only those native to tropical rain forests. Lastly be sure not to over eat the foods that are allowed or you will still get fat! So to make sure you don't over eat we have this algorithm, which you put your scale weight into and compute this magic number, which is your maximum allowed calories per day.

2- You choose to lose a few pounds to get in better shape so you do some research on what diets are successful, why they are successful, and how you can fit some of these ideas and concept into your life. From your past experiences and research you have a good idea of how many calories you should be consuming per day. You look at your schedule to determine how many times per day you can feasibly get the time needed to eat a meal. You then organize an eating plan with the proper calories of the foods you both like and know are conducive to your goal. Should you want to eat something that isn't conducive to your diet like ice cream YOU decide if want to have it this moment or sometime later because you are pleased with your success and don't want to compromise maximum results yet.

In situation 1 you have zero power in your diet, you’re in a "food prison" constructed by someone else who is dictating how, what, and when you eat. If you have quite a bit of fat to lose you’re going to be in food prison for months or maybe even years! The scariest part is that the majority of people don't even realize this is happening!

Beliefs are formed over time both consciously and subconsciously so logically we don't make all these connections and see what is really doing on in our minds at a subconscious level. The simple fact is humans are respond to stress logically and emotionally. Logically there is nothing wrong with a diet. A diet as far as we are concerned is simply a brief period of calorie restriction. However in situation 1 your going to have a huge emotional response to dieting stemming from unseen factors at a subconscious level. This huge emotional stress is going to contribute to food cravings, inability to follow you plan and ultimately failure. Then how will the emotional stress from failing be dealt with?...Often by rebound weight gain from further over eating.

Athletes are a rare breed because they often poses extraordinary amounts of will power and can push through or over come emotional stress by "keeping there eye on the prize" While this is an important trait for an athlete when it comes to dieting it just shouldn't be this hard!

In situation 2 you have KEPT all your power because you are choosing to do things on your own terms for your own reasons. You are on a diet not because you have to but rather you choose to, you eat certain things at certain times because you choose to, you may change some things around because you choose to. You may go off it for a meal, an hour, a day, a week because YOU CHOOSE TO. The world is essentially your oyster, as you may want a cheat day to because you deserve it for your efforts thus far or you may be having too much success to want to slow down just yet. The bottom line is though that you have your goal and you are choosing to make decision conducive to that goal. When you look at dieting from this perspective while holding on to your personal power you AVOID all emotional stress you would have subconsciously suffered in situation one.

As a final note the ideas of personal power and reframing are applicable to many areas of a persons life but I'm applying them to dieting.


ST

Vido
11-17-2004, 09:01 PM
Wow, nice post ST.

Canadian Crippler
11-17-2004, 09:17 PM
I smell a sticky :).

waynis
11-17-2004, 09:39 PM
adkins had a good idea but if you tune his diet a bit I think it would have even more success. MY diet is more like a fine tuned adkins. I eat whole wheat and oats and veggies as my carbs all threw out the day. after 6 i start to limit my wheat and oats. I start to eat veggies since they don't give a insulin spike that would actually harm you. So I eat plenty of carbs so I always have energy yet.. I monitor how much actually turns to sugar or fat. I think if you monitored what carbs your eating and when you can figure how much of them are bad carbs.

ozzyman
11-17-2004, 10:59 PM
adkins had a good idea but if you tune his diet a bit I think it would have even more success. MY diet is more like a fine tuned adkins. I eat whole wheat and oats and veggies as my carbs all threw out the day. after 6 i start to limit my wheat and oats. I start to eat veggies since they don't give a insulin spike that would actually harm you. So I eat plenty of carbs so I always have energy yet.. I monitor how much actually turns to sugar or fat. I think if you monitored what carbs your eating and when you can figure how much of them are bad carbs.

Another advantage to that is you drastically increase your insulin sensitivty over time by digesting slow burning carbs.

pruneman
11-18-2004, 06:17 AM
excellent post ST

Want2BYounger
11-18-2004, 06:49 AM
Excellent post Severed.

I don't know if you are familiar with the NHE diet by Rob Fegan(sp?), but I follow an altered version of his diet. I have decreased the frequency of the "high carb" meal to about one a week or one every two weeks. BUT, if I feel so inclined, on special occasions I have no problem eating what I want without any guilt. This leaves me feeling very empowered and satisfied.

galileo
11-23-2004, 09:21 AM
As much as I enjoyed your post ST (and I feel it is quite valid), I feel compelled to mention my situation as it may be something others can also relate to whilst dieting.

If I create my own diet, with my own restrictions and my own "power" I find that 9 times out of 10 I will break said diet. Why? Not really sure. Perhaps I don't trust my own judgement. When I follow a diet such as UD2, where the rules are quite stringent I find much great success because it is an "all or nothing" situation. I don't have to rely on variance, I just perform the diet to a T and convince myself that if I screw up, I've wasted a lot of time and energy. I do the same thing with workouts, trusting other people's opinions far more than my own. It may be a problem, but when it comes to dieting, I need to exercise this option.

I assume there are multiple types of dieters in the world. Some who can flow better when they feel in control and some who require rigidity and a small margin for error. I happen to be the latter.

In essence, figure out how you succeed and stick with it. Sticking with it is sincerely 95% of any diet. I was far leaner when I knew ****-all about dieting just because I stuck to a basic principle and let time take its course, rather than the quick n dirty methods I've used as of late. I've grown impatient, I guess. Don't let impatience get the best of your diet.

Severed Ties
11-23-2004, 05:14 PM
Gal your point is quite valid as some people will succeed better with just being handed something on paper and told to stick to it. In fact I'd probably say in the beginning the majority of people start and succeed this way. However in terms of long term success the majority of people fail because no one is meant to live on an eating plan confined to the restrictions of a piece of paper.

U2D is a great diet but not something anyone will have long term success with. Even if you drop 100lbs and get to 10% bodyfat...then what? If you go back to eating "normally" you will eventually rebound back to your starting weight. My post is more about the mental aspects of life style change for the long term. In reality very few people will do enough research and enbark on a self constructed diet there very first time around. What I want to drive home though is for long term success you must apply what you learn works into a life style that you can both enjoy and achieve your goals.

The biggest take home point from my post is that if you want to "re-invent" your body is that it takes a change in life style and that means both the physical way you approach dieting and the mental way you prepare yourself. Visualization is another technique that helps with the mental shift but all I'm saying is there is far more to this word "diet" that people preceive.

ST

galileo
11-24-2004, 06:45 AM
I'll worry about that when I come to it, lol. :)

maverick9614
12-02-2004, 11:51 AM
I wish they would warn people about the dnagers of low carb on the kidneys. It is quite bad depending on your level of carbs.

muscle chic
09-02-2009, 08:09 PM
It really comes down to calories in and calories out for maintaining a healthy weight. If you're concerned about being healthy not just at a normal weight then you need to make healthy food choices within the calorie range for your body. Carbs are healthy and give needed nutrients to the body. I think man made stuff is crap(like cake). Natural foods from earth are best.

KingWilder
09-02-2009, 08:20 PM
this thread is so old....

Abe Froman
09-03-2009, 09:57 AM
I coulda told you this just from personal experience. The ONLY thing that works for me burning fat/losing weight is cutting my carbs down dramatically. And it works without fail...

Holto
09-03-2009, 12:01 PM
I coulda told you this just from personal experience. The ONLY thing that works for me burning fat/losing weight is cutting my carbs down dramatically. And it works without fail...

You don't count cals.

Abe Froman
09-03-2009, 12:55 PM
You don't count cals.
I do but as long as those cals were coming from protein and not carbs, i had no issues. "All calories are not created equal."

In general its a two-fold procedure to lose fat. Carbs and calories are the two focuses but the calories seem to be cut in half just by cutting carbs out.

dynamo
09-03-2009, 01:29 PM
well this is good. im glad muscle chick bumped this. I am considering cutting now. I have flirted with it but I get pretty worn out. What about nutrient timing? having carbs in the morning? I have about 20 lbs I want to lose and I would be happy losing it over the peroid of 4-5 months. I'm in no rush. My protein intake is already pretty high, 200-300g/day and its tough to go much higher without using shakes. What do you do Abe? Fill the rest in with veggies?

Abe Froman
09-03-2009, 02:30 PM
well this is good. im glad muscle chick bumped this. I am considering cutting now. I have flirted with it but I get pretty worn out. What about nutrient timing? having carbs in the morning? I have about 20 lbs I want to lose and I would be happy losing it over the peroid of 4-5 months. I'm in no rush. My protein intake is already pretty high, 200-300g/day and its tough to go much higher without using shakes. What do you do Abe? Fill the rest in with veggies?

Dynamo, for me i found myself at a seriously high fat percentage without even realizing...saw some pics of myself on vaca and was like wtf, im fat!! So literally the day after I saw the pics I started cutting carbs. And lets just say, that the body responds so quickly to low carb diets. 3 months later I haven't lost much weight (235-229) but the fat decrease results are great. I went from 25% to now around 17% without doing much if any cardio, just lifting weights and watching diet.

And i'll share again from personal experience that people overstate how much protein you need. 200-300g is too much if you ask me. It can reak havoc on your stomach and you wind up not needing that much anyway. I've gotten huge from one protein shake a day and stacking up on my chicken breast.

For me, this is an example of a daily diet that worked the best to cut fat...

Morning - Kashi Go Lean Crunch cereal with 1% milk
Lunch - Chicken Caesar salad with some side fruit or veggies
Afternoon snack - Beef jerky or string cheese
Dinner - Half a rotisserie chicken with salad
After dinner - Maybe some lunch meat, scoop of peanut butter or protein shake

I ate this plan almost every day for a few weeks and literally my jeans were falling off my @$$, lost that much of the waistline that quick. And I haven't gotten almost any smaller size wise, just losing fat.

dynamo
09-03-2009, 02:36 PM
And i'll share again from personal experience that people overstate how much protein you need. 200-300g is too much if you ask me. It can reak havoc on your stomach and you wind up not needing that much anyway. I've gotten huge from one protein shake a day and stacking up on my chicken breast.

Yeah I don't do supps too big. I have opticen in the AM bc I'm too damn lazy to wake up early enough to even pour a bowl of cereal and I have a protein shake sometime throughout the day so thats about 90g right there the rest is whole food. I tried going for 150-200g/day for protein but I found my recovery time was just ridiculous and after about a week I had such a huge craving for meat I ended up eating a tuna steak washing it down with a protein shake and followed up with a can of tuna later that night. I'm gunna give your outline a shot see how it works it just seems to be such a huge balancing act between food intake and recovery for me.

Holto
09-03-2009, 03:04 PM
And lets just say, that the body responds so quickly to low carb diets. 3 months later I haven't lost much weight (235-229) but the fat decrease results are great. I went from 25% to now around 17% without doing much if any cardio, just lifting weights and watching diet.

Abe, I know you're a good dude and I'm not calling your credibility into question. Just the lack of accuracy that seems to always go hand in hand with the low carb phenomena.

235 lbs @ 25% = 58.75 fat 176.25 LBM

229 lbs @ 17% = 38.93 fat 190.07 LBM

This means you lost 20lbs of fat while gaining 14lbs of lean mass while losing 6lbs of bodyweight in 3 months. I know you are estimating, but still.

There is only one reason to limit carbs, and that is to control hunger. Anything else is needless torture and torment.

Edit: To add to my last statement. Unless you are carb cycling which I'm all for.

radioheadhead
09-03-2009, 03:06 PM
I coulda told you this just from personal experience. The ONLY thing that works for me burning fat/losing weight is cutting my carbs down dramatically. And it works without fail...

trying a carb-cycle starting today!

hi carb day- 200 g carbs
med carb day- 150
lo carb day- 100

putting my 2 hi-carb days per week on my hargest workout days (legs 1 day, then deads/ back the other)
putting my two medium carb days on my other two workout days (chest & tris, then shoulders & access work)
then 3 lo carb days per week

doing ~350g protein per day (I weigh 215lb, going for 195lb)

Abe Froman
09-03-2009, 03:13 PM
Abe, I know you're a good dude and I'm not calling your credibility into question. Just the lack of accuracy that seems to always go hand in hand with the low carb phenomena.

235 lbs @ 25% = 58.75 fat 176.25 LBM

229 lbs @ 17% = 38.93 fat 190.07 LBM

This means you lost 20lbs of fat while gaining 14lbs of lean mass while losing 6lbs of bodyweight in 3 months. I know you are estimating, but still.

There is only one reason to limit carbs, and that is to control hunger. Anything else is needless torture and torment.
Hmm, i don't get how that works...those calculations are a bit out of my realm, but that kind of seems more hypothetical. I mean I guess in THEORY the losing 20lbs of body fat and 14lbs mass thing may be an estimation or technical equivalency. Dunno. As for the body fat thing, i did one of those hand held things at the gym which aren't that accurate, so i may have been less than 25 to begin with or maybe im more than 17 now.

But i also stated in a previous thread a while back that I had a problem losing WEIGHT but not fat...i was trying to cut down to 225 back then but could barely lose a single pound but was somehow losing fat. Think my metabolism may have come a little out of wack when i got older.

If i showed u before an after pics, youd see someone with a lot less fat but not a lot less size...ill have to flic up a new pic.

Holto
09-03-2009, 03:19 PM
Hmm, i don't get how that works...those calculations are a bit out of my realm, but that kind of seems more hypothetical. I mean I guess in THEORY the losing 20lbs of body fat and 14lbs mass thing may be an estimation or technical equivalency. Dunno. As for the body fat thing, i did one of those hand held things at the gym which aren't that accurate, so i may have been less than 25 to begin with or maybe im more than 17 now.

But i also stated in a previous thread a while back that I had a problem losing WEIGHT but not fat...i was trying to cut down to 225 back then but could barely lose a single pound but was somehow losing fat. Think my metabolism may have come a little out of wack when i got older.

If i showed u before an after pics, youd see someone with a lot less fat but not a lot less size...ill have to flic up a new pic.

Yeah man it sucks there is no really cheap, easy accurate way to measure fat. I've used those electronic things a lot and I think they are really only good to know you're going in the right direction.

My calculations are like this:

Bodyweight of 100lbs @ 10%.

100 * .10 = fat mass
100 * .90 = lean mass

galileo
09-07-2009, 12:30 PM
Abe, I know you're a good dude and I'm not calling your credibility into question. Just the lack of accuracy that seems to always go hand in hand with the low carb phenomena.

235 lbs @ 25% = 58.75 fat 176.25 LBM

229 lbs @ 17% = 38.93 fat 190.07 LBM

This means you lost 20lbs of fat while gaining 14lbs of lean mass while losing 6lbs of bodyweight in 3 months. I know you are estimating, but still.

There is only one reason to limit carbs, and that is to control hunger. Anything else is needless torture and torment.

Edit: To add to my last statement. Unless you are carb cycling which I'm all for.

I bet you missed me.

I've done some great recomp feats in my time, especially when I went from doing things very wrong to very right (for me, a very relative sentiment). My measurements are mostly meaningless to me though, aside from looking cool.

During my best diets, I lost 0lbs, but I was significantly leaner once all was said and done. Carb cycling (in different formats) was always the key.

LuNa
09-07-2009, 08:38 PM
Not to steal this thread or anything, but i am carbcycling at the moment. Do any of you count veggies as significant carbs? At the moment i am really living on the veggies so limiting them would make me a lot hungrier. Also, i understand there is a difference between veggies, from green and fibrous veg to others. I eat a lot of carrots, do i have to count them?

galileo
09-08-2009, 08:44 AM
Not to steal this thread or anything, but i am carbcycling at the moment. Do any of you count veggies as significant carbs? At the moment i am really living on the veggies so limiting them would make me a lot hungrier. Also, i understand there is a difference between veggies, from green and fibrous veg to others. I eat a lot of carrots, do i have to count them?

Green vegetables I don't bother counting. Broccoli is somewhere around 40% fibrous, where surprisingly carrots are about 30%. Not too far off, really. I think the key factor is that a carrot will have more sugars than most of your green selections (save cucumbers, perhaps). Carrots are about 5% sugar by weight and broccoli is somewhere around 1.7%.

If you're eating "a lot", then I'd say count them (is your skin orange yet?). If it's just a snack, I'd not worry too much about them on most days. If it's a no carb day, perhaps just skip the carrots.

LuNa
09-08-2009, 09:45 PM
Green vegetables I don't bother counting. Broccoli is somewhere around 40% fibrous, where surprisingly carrots are about 30%. Not too far off, really. I think the key factor is that a carrot will have more sugars than most of your green selections (save cucumbers, perhaps). Carrots are about 5% sugar by weight and broccoli is somewhere around 1.7%.

If you're eating "a lot", then I'd say count them (is your skin orange yet?). If it's just a snack, I'd not worry too much about them on most days. If it's a no carb day, perhaps just skip the carrots.

Thanks for the reply. Not orange yet :hello:

d0rkyd00d
09-09-2009, 12:02 AM
I too started carb cycling about 3 weeks ago, and I'm about to take some more recent pictures to track my progress.

On Mon, Wed, Fri I try to aim for around 250 - 300 g of carbs. On tues & thurs I aim for as close to 0 g as possible, and on the weekends just try for low carbs without going too nuts one way or the other.

So far it seems like I'm able to see a few little things here and there I didn't notice before, but I'll wait until the 6 week mark before I get my hopes up.

Holto
09-09-2009, 12:41 PM
I bet you missed me.

I've done some great recomp feats in my time, especially when I went from doing things very wrong to very right (for me, a very relative sentiment). My measurements are mostly meaningless to me though, aside from looking cool.

During my best diets, I lost 0lbs, but I was significantly leaner once all was said and done. Carb cycling (in different formats) was always the key.

If I'm not mistaken you have a degree in math?

The only way what you're proposing is feasible is if you were barely training prior to the recomp. Unless you have really low expectations for a cut. When I cut I drop 1lb/week, every week until I'm done. I can't put on 1lb of LMB per week, whilst dropping fat. I doubt anyone can, unassisted.

So you may have had some awesome results from going from barely training and eating poorly to training hard and dieting diligently, but I'm not sure what that proves.

galileo
09-09-2009, 08:37 PM
If I'm not mistaken you have a degree in math?

The only way what you're proposing is feasible is if you were barely training prior to the recomp. Unless you have really low expectations for a cut. When I cut I drop 1lb/week, every week until I'm done. I can't put on 1lb of LMB per week, whilst dropping fat. I doubt anyone can, unassisted.

So you may have had some awesome results from going from barely training and eating poorly to training hard and dieting diligently, but I'm not sure what that proves.

I've done it during all shades of fitness. It is what it is. I don't need you to believe it for it to be correct, that would be in the realm of quantum physics. As someone who is so attached to the 2nd law of thermodynamics, I am sure you don't believe in that mumbo-jumbo.

Holto
09-10-2009, 12:12 PM
I've done it during all shades of fitness.

Done what? What exactly are you claiming to have accomplished? All you've stated is that you looked better. My whole point is the mystery of low-carb success seems to always evade real quantification. You seem to be supporting that.

Daniel Roberts
09-11-2009, 04:13 PM
Holto, thought you might appreciate the following discussion -

http://forums.jpfitness.com/diet-nutrition-supplementation/39280-fierce-conversations-2-more-important-adequate-protein-carb-reduction.html

twm
09-11-2009, 05:54 PM
Holto, thought you might appreciate the following discussion -

http://forums.jpfitness.com/diet-nutrition-supplementation/39280-fierce-conversations-2-more-important-adequate-protein-carb-reduction.html

very good read. thanks for the link