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Frozenmoses
11-21-2004, 11:31 PM
Okay, got some pics of the progress I've made using PSMF. I'm extremely pleased with the progress I've made so far. The pics on the left column are from about 10 days ago, and the ones on the right are from tonight, 6 days into PSMF. Admittedly, the newer pics have better lighting, but what can ya do. LittleJake guessed that my current bf is at around 15%, and I'm thinking that's a pretty good guess. Gonna stick out PSMF for a bit longer, until I get some abs. From there, I'm thinking a UD2 bulk will be in order.

Comments definitely welcome!

Jasonl
11-22-2004, 12:01 AM
I definitely see a leaner Frozenmoses in there. Nice work.

GMCtrk
11-22-2004, 12:14 AM
what is PSMF? Sorry for my ignorance.

Also, 15%BF seems a little low. I would say closer to 18%. I haven't seen your before pics so I can't really see how you have progressed

Frozenmoses
11-22-2004, 12:16 AM
Jason - Thank you very much.

GMC - PSMF is a Protein Sparing Modified Fast. The basic premise is eating your bodyweight in grams of protein, 6 fish oil caps a day, and nothing else. It sounds extreme, and it is, but it actually preserves lean mass fairly efficiently while shedding bodyfat quickly. Refeeds performed depedning on bodyfat level.

GMCtrk
11-22-2004, 12:21 AM
Jason - Thank you very much.

GMC - PSMF is a Protein Sparing Modified Fast. The basic premise is eating your bodyweight in grams of protein, 6 fish oil caps a day, and nothing else. It sounds extreme, and it is, but it actually preserves lean mass fairly efficiently while shedding bodyfat quickly. Refeeds performed depedning on bodyfat level.

how do you maintain muscle mass without carbs!!!

Your body is doing gluconeogenesis in high gear!

Frozenmoses
11-22-2004, 12:30 AM
Um, I'm not good with all of the scientific mumbo-jumbo, but the refeeds help prevent metabolic crash whilst refilling muscular glycogen. I'm not saying this diet preserves all LBM, but it does a good job of keeping a decent amount while rapidly shedding bodyfat.

If you would like to learn more about PSMF, check out the diet section at www.bodyrecomposition.com, and more specifically, this thread.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2425

Shark
11-22-2004, 12:43 AM
I have thought about doing a PSMF before but never had the guts. How are you doing on the hunger? What do you do about energy? How long do you plan to stay on? Is this stuff in your journal because I woudl love to track your progress.

Frozenmoses
11-22-2004, 12:46 AM
Hunger really hasn't been nearly as bad as I thought it would be. My appetite is supressed fairly well, but I get overwhelming cravings on occassion (none of which I have succumbed to thus far). Energy is definitely down while lifting. Being totally glycogen depleted makes it very tough to throw heavy weight around, but you shouldn't be going to failure on a diet like this anyway. I plan on staying on this for 2 to 3 more weeks, and then starting a UD2 bulk. And yes, I've been keeping a log of this in my journal (first link in my sig), so feel free to come by and read up.

VasDeferens
11-22-2004, 09:00 AM
nice. looking lean and well read.

getfit
11-22-2004, 09:09 AM
looking nice and lean fromo keep it up:)

Frozenmoses
11-22-2004, 09:14 AM
VD, getfit - Thank you very much. ;)

Rastaman
11-22-2004, 02:33 PM
nice. looking lean and well read.


I'd have to agree. You're looking very well read and you appear to be making very good progress with the diet. Are you going to start bulking after?

Vido
11-22-2004, 02:37 PM
how do you maintain muscle mass without carbs!!!

Your body is doing gluconeogenesis in high gear!

because muscle is maintained mainly due to nitrogen balance, which means protein is really all that matters

Vido
11-22-2004, 02:41 PM
Looking leaner for sure. I'm really bad with bodyfat estimates, so I won't even give it a shot. I've heard that if you can see your ribs at all when you lift your arms up then you're no more than 15% (which is a checkmark for you).

Frozenmoses
11-22-2004, 02:44 PM
Rasta - Thank you very much. After a few more weeks of PSMF, I'm probably going to bump cals up to maintenance slowly, and then begin a UD2 bulk. I wanna keep the fat off and get bigger, so I'm thinking this would be the best route to go.

Vido - Thanks a bunch bro. You've been a tremendous help with this diet for me, I really appreciate all of your assistance.

briancurran01
11-22-2004, 03:18 PM
nice work fromo...good info about the diet bro...

vido: good info about the bf check...using that method means i am pretty close with my pinches for my bf.

Frozenmoses
11-22-2004, 03:33 PM
Thanks brian. We're getting close, bro!

galileo
11-22-2004, 03:43 PM
how do you maintain muscle mass without carbs!!!

Your body is doing gluconeogenesis in high gear!

Knowledge is power.

galileo
11-22-2004, 03:44 PM
Lookin great fromo! Far better than I at the moment. I'm slowly getting myself back into things, so a PSMF might be the way I go as well. Don't got much to lose (muscle-wise) in any case. :)

Frozenmoses
11-22-2004, 03:45 PM
Thanks a bunch, gal. I'm sure you'll get back in the swing in no time, bro. PSMF is effective, but not fun. I think you'd like it, though.

galileo
11-22-2004, 03:47 PM
I'm into funless diets.

briancurran01
11-22-2004, 03:51 PM
gal: i know you had alot of success before with ud2...isnt that really good at sparing muscle also?

Vido
11-22-2004, 05:33 PM
gal: i know you had alot of success before with ud2...isnt that really good at sparing muscle also?

UD2 is more muscle-sparing than PSMF, but for pure fat loss nothing beats PSMF.

Organichu
11-22-2004, 05:50 PM
What kind of success can be hoped for? This .5 lb per week **** has got to go. :(

Frozenmoses
11-22-2004, 05:56 PM
That's a tough call Organichu. My first week weightloss has been about 8 lbs, but you have to remember that also includes depletion of glycogen. I'm guessing that you could lose anywhere from 2-4 lbs a week on psmf.

HobbesAB
11-22-2004, 06:01 PM
O'chu, it will depend on how much BF you have to lose. Like any other "diet," a lean individual will lose less than a not-so-lean individual.

RickTheDestroyer
11-22-2004, 06:18 PM
I've heard that if you can see your ribs at all when you lift your arms up then you're no more than 15% (which is a checkmark for you).

No sh*t?!? I guess that's obviously a guideline and might not be applicable for me, considering I store a lot of my fat in my big fat gut.
Still, I was thinking that I was pushing 18%, and now I don't think I'm quite that bad yet. Maybe. I guess I should just get some stupid calipers.

Organichu
11-22-2004, 06:59 PM
Huh. Just how do you ingest only protein? o.O I don't mind not eating much, and I can handle the oil.. but what food do you suggest? At what intervals? I'd really like to shed some serious pounds before I spring for some nice home workout equipment. I really need some motivation, and I think seeing some striations would do the trick. :)

I'm really, really liking the difference in your back and side shots. Exciting prospect.

Organichu
11-22-2004, 07:06 PM
O'chu, it will depend on how much BF you have to lose. Like any other "diet," a lean individual will lose less than a not-so-lean individual.

Quite a bit.. I used to be a solid, strong 16-18% at 240, playing linebacker sophomore year. Ever since I got introduced to the serious bodybuilding world I've just been building muscle and trying to keep fat in check.. I wouldn't doubt that I'm clocking in around 22-25% at maybe 218 right now.

Sorry to sound so ignorant, but the last "cut" I went on was the South Beach diet, lol- so I'm not really experienced with advanced dieting.

Frozenmoses
11-22-2004, 07:07 PM
Og - I have 4 food groups on PSMF. Those groups are tuna, chicken breast, nitrean, and egg whites. Get some 0 cal condiments and spices to keep yourself from going insane. I eat 6 meals a day (I know that sounds hard to believe as I'm only consuming ~800 cals/day) but I have like no appetite on this diet, so a cup of egg whites fills me, 4 oz of chicken fills me, a can of tuna fills me, hell... a scoop of Nitrean fills me.

Frozenmoses
11-22-2004, 07:08 PM
If you're in the 20-25% range, I'd suggest doing PSMF the way I had outlined it earlier in the thread, and refeed once every 2 weeks or so.

orbital
11-22-2004, 07:09 PM
Nice work man and love the Aenima tatty.

Frozenmoses
11-22-2004, 07:10 PM
Thanks orbital. Tool is teh /pwn!

Organichu
11-22-2004, 07:17 PM
Ok, just one more question: how much cardio? With so little glycogen stores available, will I have the energy to burn any significant amount of energy?

Also, I really like the tattoo, too. Tool is probably the *only* band that I still listen to from my darker, more industrial era. Now I'm a Monkees/Ben Folds/Decemberists fag. ;)

Frozenmoses
11-22-2004, 07:19 PM
Cardio is performed depending on how fast you want to lose weight, and how much energy you feel you can expend to do said cardio. I'm starting to do 40 mins of low intensity cardio on a daily basis (ie, walking at 3.5 mph on a treadmill changing inclination). I do low intensity as it burns fat and spares muscle moreso than medium intensity. However, you can also do HIIT if you have brass balls, but I do not have the energy to go balls out sprinting on this diet.

And thanks for the compliments on my ink.

orbital
11-22-2004, 07:26 PM
ahhh, the Undertow has fueled my workouts for so long, I don't think I could manage without it heh. Tool > *

Organichu
11-22-2004, 07:26 PM
Thanks for all the help, Fromo! Sorry to hijack your thread, but with your help, maybe I'll be making my own thread with pictures worth posting soon! :thumbsup:

And in case I didn't make it clear enough.. damn your back. You have, like, a 10% bodyfat back.. at 15%. Grrrr. :P

Frozenmoses
11-22-2004, 07:29 PM
orbital - Awesome, Undertow is such a great album. I still remember the day I learned how to play "Flood" on bass. I was like /schwing.

O'chu - No prob bro. I hope to see some pics of ya soon; if you do decide to go the PSMF route, I think you're gonna be pleasantly suprised. As far as my back, I'm not so sure it's that out of the ordinary. I read somewhere that males generally lose fat from their upper back first. But thank you for the compiment regardless ;)

Vido
11-22-2004, 08:40 PM
What kind of success can be hoped for? This .5 lb per week **** has got to go. :(

You should be closer to .5lbs/DAY on PSMF.

galileo
11-23-2004, 07:10 AM
Looking leaner for sure. I'm really bad with bodyfat estimates, so I won't even give it a shot. I've heard that if you can see your ribs at all when you lift your arms up then you're no more than 15% (which is a checkmark for you).

If that were only a universal truth. I can see my ribs when I raise my arms and I'm easily 20% right now.

Y2A
11-23-2004, 07:26 AM
Holy ****, that sounds like a crazy diet. You do look a ton better, especially for a weeks worth of progress man!

Frozenmoses
11-23-2004, 08:18 AM
Thank you very much, Y2A!

Vido
11-23-2004, 11:32 AM
If that were only a universal truth. I can see my ribs when I raise my arms and I'm easily 20% right now.

Yeah, it seemed kind of sketchy to me when I heard it, but hey, we can pretend right? ;)

galileo
11-23-2004, 11:58 AM
Yeah, it seemed kind of sketchy to me when I heard it, but hey, we can pretend right? ;)

I was hoping you couldn't see abs until 4%, but I was wrong.

chris6969
11-23-2004, 12:09 PM
I might have to try this... The first 10-15lbs came off easy... I think I have about another 10lbs to go to be where I want to be. I love meat so the meat part would be easy. My problem is drinks... I love gatorade (and other sugary drinks). I might try a slightly modified version, with a few sips of gatorade in the morning to take creatine with.

Frozenmoses
11-23-2004, 12:22 PM
chris - I'm sure you could get by on a few extra carbs thrown in. You'll be in a gigantic caloric deficit regardless, and it might help you with feelings of dizziness and nausea, while maybe not losing quite as fast as strict PSMF.

RickTheDestroyer
11-23-2004, 02:04 PM
So anyway...
Do you think that it would be possible for a fatty to do a week or two of PSMF while in the middle of a bulk?
This is the first time that I've ever tried being really serious about gaining weight, in that I didn't cut calories the minute I got slightly fatter. I've gained pretty damn well, but the gut is making me nuts. I was planning on maybe trying UD2 (if I'm feeling hardcore) sometime after the holidays, because there ain't no way I'm trying that sh*t while everybody around me is pigging out.
So the question is- could I throw 7-10 days of PSMF into my bulking period once in awhile to de-fatify myself a little? Or would this be a bad idea, as I wouldn't really be on long enough to lose any fat, just water and glycogen?




Oh... and you guys know how I feel about tool. :thumbup:

Frozenmoses
11-23-2004, 02:14 PM
Um, I suppose it's possible. However, this is pretty much a starvation diet, meaning you could experience up to 30% metabolic supression. If you decide to PSMF in the middle of a bulk, I would slowly bump your cals back up, as this diet will most likely change your maintenance calories immediately following it.

So I guess what I'm saying it... I'd save the weightloss til I was done bulking, but that's just me. Vido would probably be the best person to ask in regards to this.

RickTheDestroyer
11-23-2004, 02:15 PM
Well then, I guess that I shall stay a fatass for the time being.

Manveet
11-23-2004, 07:34 PM
I definately see an improvement, and a nice one for just 6 days.

Keep this thread updated fromo, I wanna see more pics as well. Let us know if you lost significant amounts of muscle mass, or if you lost a lot of strength. I plan on doing this diet after I finish fatting up (or bulking).

Frozenmoses
11-23-2004, 07:42 PM
I'll definitely post more progress pics in the near future Manveet. Thus far, I don't think I've lost much muscle, and I've actually improved in a few of my lifts despite being fatigued and depleted as hell. Thank you for the compliments.

Canadian Crippler
11-23-2004, 07:53 PM
Wow FroMo, amazing results especially for just 10 days! Are you gaining strength aswell?

Frozenmoses
11-23-2004, 08:03 PM
Cripp - Thanks bro. I'm gaining strength in relation to bodyweight, not so much raw power. For instance, before going on PSMF, I was dipping my bodyweight +35 lbs for 6 reps at ~165 lbs. Now I'm dipping +45 lbs for 6 at 155 lbs. It's the same total weight, but in relation to my size, yes, I am stronger in that respect. Now I'm curious what I can do with some glycogen stores, heh.

Frozenmoses
12-05-2004, 05:44 PM
Aight, got a new set of pics. The last column was taken tonight, after my second cycle of PSMF, all carbed up.

briancurran01
12-05-2004, 05:49 PM
looking great fromo...you are kicking ass bro :thumbup:

Frozenmoses
12-05-2004, 06:09 PM
Brian - Thanks a bunch, buddy. WE'RE kicking ass, bro :D

Oh, and for sh*ts and giggles, here's a side vacuum pic. I'm skinny, but I can't get rid of that damn gut. Hopefully it'll be gone in a few more weeks.

RickTheDestroyer
12-05-2004, 06:25 PM
Damn Fromo, looking a lot leaner.
One thing I'm going to miss when I cut is noticable in your progress pics- I like the illusion of extra added size from the bodyfat. :)
I guess I'll live, though.

Manveet
12-05-2004, 06:27 PM
Looks like your making great progress.

How many weeks has it been? You've lost a lot of fat from your chest area.

Frozenmoses
12-05-2004, 06:27 PM
DD - Thanks a bunch, bro. I know what you mean about the bodyfat. I do look a bit smaller, but I'm alright with it. I figure once I'm lean enough, a clean bulk will make me look much bigger when I approach the weight I was weighing before.

Frozenmoses
12-05-2004, 06:28 PM
Thanks a bunch, Manveet. Few more weeks to go.

Manveet
12-05-2004, 06:29 PM
Thanks a bunch, Manveet. Few more weeks to go.


How many total weeks will it be?

I honestly can't wait until I do this diet:D

Frozenmoses
12-05-2004, 06:33 PM
It will probably be 5 or 6 total weeks. I was gonna just do a week or two of PSMF and switch to UD2, but LittleJake told me I was making too good of progress to mess with a good thing.

Manveet
12-05-2004, 06:38 PM
It will probably be 5 or 6 total weeks. I was gonna just do a week or two of PSMF and switch to UD2, but LittleJake told me I was making too good of progress to mess with a good thing.


Hot dang, that's some good progress for 3-4 weeks (considering you have a couple more weeks left). Ya, I plan on doing PSMF for several weeks after my bulk, and then maybe, maybe I'll switch to UD2.0 if I'm man enough for it.

Frozenmoses
12-05-2004, 06:46 PM
Thanks Manveet. Yeah, I guess I've been on for about 2.5-3 weeks now. PSMF is fun, seriously.

*cough*

:D

RickTheDestroyer
12-05-2004, 08:40 PM
Yeah dude, I really only noticed around the traps... arms look the same size which is awesome.
Is it the general consensus that UD2 sucks worse that PSMF? I was planning on doing something similar to what Manveet said.

Frozenmoses
12-05-2004, 08:47 PM
As far as dieting, UD2's system seems easier to me. The workouts and schedule that goes with UD2 is really strict, though, which seems to be the reason most people hate it. I have hella free time though, so either would be alright with me.

ryuage
12-06-2004, 12:07 AM
what are you guys talking about, depletion workouts are fun! :D

Vido
12-06-2004, 12:16 AM
The downside of UD2 is that it takes longer to reach your desired goal (which is also why it is better at preserving muscle). I don't like the idea of having 2 days/week of basically maintenance calories. Either you're cutting or you're not imo.

Looking good fromo :thumbup:.

Frozenmoses
12-06-2004, 12:23 AM
ryu - You're insane. Actually, no lol, I agree with you. I enjoy doing depletion work. I really love taxing my body as much as possible, as masochistic as that sounds. Nothing quite like needing a wheelchair to leave the gym.

Vido - Ahh yeah, good point on UD2. I'm wondering how much better it's muscle-sparing properties are, as I really feel like I haven't lost any strength on PSMF. Although muscle mass is not always an indicator of strength, I would've figured I'd be feeling really weak, yet I've felt the same pretty much. And thanks for the compliment, bro.

TTT
12-06-2004, 01:30 AM
That's some impressive work there Fromo. Good luck with your bulk (hope you can start eating soon)! :)

galileo
12-06-2004, 08:32 AM
You've come a long way from the pictures you posted when you first came back! You're on your way to a sixer, I hope I can progress as quickly.

Organichu
12-06-2004, 01:04 PM
You've come a long way from the pictures you posted when you first came back! You're on your way to a sixer, I hope I can progress as quickly.

?

Six.. percent bodyfat?

galileo
12-06-2004, 01:29 PM
?

Six.. percent bodyfat?

No, he's on his way to a six-pack. If he keeps up with his diet, it's conceivable in the coming months.

Frozenmoses
12-06-2004, 01:38 PM
Gal - Thanks a bunch for your support, man. I think this is the hardest I've dedicated myself since my start in lifting (about 3 years ago). Hopefully nothing sh*tty will happen to make me fall out again. Actually, that's a bad way to put it. I hope I keep my head of f*cking straight this time and stop making excuses.


?

Six.. percent bodyfat?

Ha! I wish.

I suppose its possible for me to end up with a 6'er sooner or later, but at this point in my cut, I'm really not that concerned about it anymore. I mean, it IS one of my goals to get one, but I'm not going to stress over it. I just want to get my bodyfat down a bit more, and then begin packing on the muscle. I'll worry about shooting for the 6 when spring break gets close. :eek:

Senator
12-07-2004, 10:20 PM
Just looked at your pics and want to say, "Wow, what a good job!" You've definitely leaned yourself out and have more cuts. I just don't see how you got throught the diet and all the hunger pains. Whenever I get hungry, I'm worse than a woman during PMS.
Again, great job and keep it up.

Organichu
12-08-2004, 04:36 PM
No, he's on his way to a six-pack. If he keeps up with his diet, it's conceivable in the coming months.

Ah, ok. :)

awakeye
12-08-2004, 04:39 PM
Some nice progress man and also cool tool tatoo.

Frozenmoses
12-08-2004, 08:11 PM
Senator, awakeye - Thank you both very much for the kind words!

RickTheDestroyer
12-08-2004, 10:03 PM
Alright dude, it's been like 4 days. I'm ready for more progress pics.

Frozenmoses
12-08-2004, 10:43 PM
Haha, not a lot has changed in 4 days unfortunately. The honeymoon effect is kinda over. I'm still losing at a decent rate, but not crazy fast like I was in the beginning. I'll take some more before I start my next refeed, which should be on this upcoming Sunday.