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Pup
11-12-2001, 06:45 AM
Is GI the rate at which insulin is moved or is it the amount of insulin that is moved.

the doc
11-12-2001, 06:49 AM
neither, it is an index which measures the increase in blood glucose levels relative to a standard such as white bread

The_Chicken_Daddy
11-12-2001, 06:51 AM
So if blood glucose levels suddenly rise, will there be a fast release of insulin, a large amount of insulin released, or both?

Wizard
11-12-2001, 06:56 AM
Insulin will be released to bring blood sugar levels back to normal.
Sudden=faster release of insulin..

The_Chicken_Daddy
11-12-2001, 07:02 AM
So a high GI food will affect the rate of insulin released and not the amount of insulin released?

Wizard
11-12-2001, 07:07 AM
Well,I understood what do you mean.
To make things clear,foods with a low G.I. require less insulin to be dealt with by the body than foods with a high.
OK?

The_Chicken_Daddy
11-12-2001, 07:09 AM
So does it affect the amount of slin released or the rate the slin is released?!

Reinier
11-12-2001, 07:10 AM
My dad shoots insulin every day he says hes got diabetes but i think he just enjoys shooting it he always has this evil insane cartoon laugh when he shoots it

Wizard
11-12-2001, 07:10 AM
The amount..

The_Chicken_Daddy
11-12-2001, 07:16 AM
hmmm...I have been under the impression that the GI of a food dictates how fast an insulin response occurs...




Another question, how long are insulin levels elevated for? using the lowest GI food there is [prolly fruit?] and using the highest GI there is [dextrose, malto?]

thanks.

Wizard
11-12-2001, 07:40 AM
"hmmm...I have been under the impression that the GI of a food dictates how fast an insulin response occurs... "

Actually,it's how fast blood sugar levels elevate.


Another question, how long are insulin levels elevated for? using the lowest GI food there is [prolly fruit?] and using the highest GI there is [dextrose, malto?]

Well,the question can't be answered exactly as the lowest GI is not a realistic term.. (scientific).I can give you an example of what happens after the administration of 75 grams of dextrose in the blood sugar levels.I will search though what happens when ex barley is eaten and I'll post it later.

Normal Values
*Fasting Blood Sugar levels are(after fasting for 12-14 hours):70 - 100 mg/dL

*Post prandial blood sugar( 2 hours after eating a meal containing carbohydrates equivalent to 75 g of glucose,meaning dextrose) 90 - 140 mg/dL

*Then blood sugar levels come back @ their normal levels after about 6 hours.

Tryska
11-12-2001, 08:20 AM
the amount of insulin released is going to be highly dependent on the sensitivity of your insulin receptors. If they are highly sensitive, then it's not gonna take much insulin to open the cells up to blood glucose. If they are dulled, then it will take a greater amount of insulin secretion to get them working.

one of the benefits of a clean, low sugar/carb diet, is increased insulin sensitivity.

the doc
11-12-2001, 09:13 AM
Originally posted by Tryska
the amount of insulin released is going to be highly dependent on the sensitivity of your insulin receptors. If they are highly sensitive, then it's not gonna take much insulin to open the cells up to blood glucose. If they are dulled, then it will take a greater amount of insulin secretion to get them working.

one of the benefits of a clean, low sugar/carb diet, is increased insulin sensitivity.

:nod:

see http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5629

Wizard
11-12-2001, 09:26 AM
Originally posted by Tryska
the amount of insulin released is going to be highly dependent on the sensitivity of your insulin receptors. If they are highly sensitive, then it's not gonna take much insulin to open the cells up to blood glucose. If they are dulled, then it will take a greater amount of insulin secretion to get them working.

one of the benefits of a clean, low sugar/carb diet, is increased insulin sensitivity.
You're right luv :)

What I said before is what exists for the average individual and indeed the individuals' characterisitics vary among them.

Tryska
11-12-2001, 09:29 AM
why thank you blackie...i thought i'd just pipe up, since chigs was on about the amount, and that's not really something that can be quantified with a blanket statement. *lol*

The_Chicken_Daddy
11-12-2001, 09:34 AM
Ok nob heads, i am seriously getting confused here.

So, a person takes in a high GI post workout to elevate blood glucose levels at a faster rate than usual?





Also, does that mean that protein and fat will not cause an insulin response?

[you guys have got to spell it out for me here.]

Tryska
11-12-2001, 09:38 AM
no fats and proteins (pure) will not cause an insulin response. insulin's sole purpose is to remove sugar from the blood, since technically neither fat nor protein (i know i know blackie, doc, we can nitpick here) do not convert to directly to glucose, they will not cause insulin to be released.

and yes...the high GI post workout is to put a boatload of glucose into your blood, thereby, stimulating insulin to be released quickly, thereby stimulating the recptors, which will open the cells, and allow the protein you consume with that GI carb to be deposited into your muscles.

The_Chicken_Daddy
11-12-2001, 09:43 AM
so high GI = fast and larger amount of insulin released?

Tryska
11-12-2001, 09:48 AM
no.

High GI = Faster insulin released.

the amount will depend on how sensitive your receptors are.

your body is going to relaease as much as needs be for the recptors to open up the cells.


(think of insulin as the key to the lock on your cells)

once the key is turned, the doors of those cells swing wide open allowing whatever nutrtion is piggybacking on that blood glucose to get in.

so if it's fat.....fat will go directly into your cells. if it's protein, protein will go directly into those cells. (alongside the glucose, of course)

The_Chicken_Daddy
11-12-2001, 11:56 AM
haha so i was f'n right in the first place....


"I have been under the impression that the GI of a food dictates how fast an insulin response occurs"

When i said this i was on about the GI in relation to insulin responses, not the affect on blood glucose levels.


I've had you fuccos confusing the hell outta me! Wizard telling me the amount and stuff....



:)

Wizard
11-12-2001, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by Wizard
Sudden=faster release of insulin..
:swear:

Tryska
11-12-2001, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy

When i said this i was on about the GI in relation to insulin responses, not the affect on blood glucose levels.




no..you were confusing the hell out of us. GI has a bearing on blood glucose levels. the amount of glucose in the blood affect insulin response. *lol*

well anyways, whatever....as long as it's all crystal now.

The_Chicken_Daddy
11-12-2001, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by Tryska

no..you were confusing the hell out of us.


no...Rob [strokes] was. He wrote [last] the question [nite] wrong so [ace] blame him. :)

Tryska
11-12-2001, 12:06 PM
hee hee.

true. [can't ge it out of my head]

(haven't quite got the hang of the subliminal thing yet)

*lol*

Tryska
11-12-2001, 12:07 PM
oh hey chigs question...

is one of the lines really "your grandkids they don't understand?"

The_Chicken_Daddy
11-12-2001, 12:21 PM
Last Night

Last night she said
"Oh baby I feel so down
Way to turn me off
When I feel left out"
So I walk out
Oh little girl I don't care no more
I know this for sure
I'm walking out that door

Well I've been in town for just about
Fifteen whole minutes now
And baby I feel so down
And I donít know why.
I've been walking for a mile
And people they don't understand
Your girlfriends, they can't understand
Your grandsons they won't understand
On top of this ain't ever gonna understand.

Last night she said
"Oh baby don't feel so down
A way to turn me off
when I feel left out"
So I turned round
Oh baby gonna be alright
It was a great big lie
Cos I left that night, Yeah.

Oh it's alright, baby
Yeah.

And people, they don't understand
No girlfriends, they can't understand
Your spaceships, they won't understand
On top of this ain't ever gonna understand.

Last night she said
"Oh baby I feel so down
A way to turn me off
When I feel left out"
So I turned round
Little girl I don't care no more
Know this for sure
I'm runnin' out that door, yeah.

Tryska
11-12-2001, 12:23 PM
k. just checkin.

thanks! :thumbup:

The_Chicken_Daddy
11-12-2001, 01:00 PM
Ok, before this thread further degenerates [ i see reinier had a quick stab at that earlier let's see what other juicey info we can squeeze out of it:


Originally posted by Wizard


Another question, how long are insulin levels elevated for? using the lowest GI food there is [prolly fruit?] and using the highest GI there is [dextrose, malto?]

Well,the question can't be answered exactly as the lowest GI is not a realistic term.. (scientific).I can give you an example of what happens after the administration of 75 grams of dextrose in the blood sugar levels.

I will search though what happens when ex barley is eaten and I'll post it later.

Ok, you do that.

Normal Values
*Fasting Blood Sugar levels are(after fasting for 12-14 hours):70 - 100 mg/dL

*Post prandial blood sugar( 2 hours after eating a meal containing carbohydrates equivalent to 75 g of glucose,meaning dextrose) 90 - 140 mg/dL

*Then blood sugar levels come back @ their normal levels after about 6 hours.

ok, the no carbs and fat in the same meal rule applies cause carbs cause an increase in blood glucose and thus an increase in lin which will push fat into fat stores. if slin levels are elevated for this long, are you saying that to comply with the no fat and carbs rule the individual should not eat any at for 6 hours after the post training spike?

Wizard
11-12-2001, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
if slin levels are elevated for this long, are you saying that to comply with the no fat and carbs rule the individual should not eat any at for 6 hours after the post training spike?

Hmm.. not really.Ideally,the answer is that you should not consume fat for the next 6 hours,but knowing that insulin levels start to drop two hours after the administration of the carbohydrates,we just try to avoid any fat consumption for this two hours time space.
After this period has passed,we can start the consumption of some fats (EFA's are the best we can have).It's easy to understand that for ex. 4-5 hours after the admin. the slin levels are ~the same as they would be if we had just consumed a lower GI listed carbohydrate and having fat in that time would be the same as if we had eaten a meal consisting primaly of low gi carbs with some fats @ the same time,thus,not so bad @ all.

body
11-12-2001, 02:11 PM
eat some protein as well with your carbs
like about 40% of the total kcals to come from prot while the other 60% from carbs after exercise.
if bulking anyway.
aim for about 0.8-1.2 grams of carbs per kg bodyweight.
so eg if you weigh 100kg(220pounds)

100 gram carbs = 400 kcals
400/100=4
4*40=160
160/4=40 grams protein.

Wizard
11-12-2001, 04:02 PM
Well said.Some protein after the 2nd hour (appart from the postworkout whey protein) will aid in the release of glucagon,thus it will reduce the amount of needed time for the insulin to get back to the normal levels.

The_Chicken_Daddy
11-12-2001, 04:15 PM
so, when on a high[er] carb diet, the ideal meals post workout for a 200lb lifter are:

{going on the assumption of 0.8g/kg of lean body weight for post workout carbs - "Strength" athletes (powerlifters, Olympic lifters) may need less, while endurance athletes may need more.}

200lb = 90k * 0.8 = 72g carbs post train.

so:

post train meal:

72g dextrose or malto [60%]
55g isolate [40%]

that's 508 cals post train. Sound good?

Then, 90-120 minutes later:

Xg complex carb
Xg complex protein
little/no fat.

90-120 minutes later:

Xg protein
Xg fat
Xg fibre
little/no carbs Only if you train later at night - like 4-6pm

ok, fill in the X values and give feedback.

Wizard
11-12-2001, 04:17 PM
Less protein postworkout(under ~30% for faster insulin release)

The_Chicken_Daddy
11-12-2001, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by body
eat some protein as well with your carbs
like about 40% of the total kcals to come from prot while the other 60% from carbs after exercise.



Originally posted by Wizard
Less protein postworkout(under ~30% for faster insulin release)


Fuccos!:swear:

He says one thing, you say another!

Tryska
11-12-2001, 04:24 PM
jee.....ZUS chigs! you and your damn high GI carbs post workout. *lol*

The_Chicken_Daddy
11-12-2001, 04:30 PM
:angel: Sorry, but this is interesting me considerably.

I haven't been this interested in food and hormone responses in a long time...

Tryska
11-12-2001, 04:32 PM
i can tell...we are going on what, week #3 of this subject and you?

The_Chicken_Daddy
11-12-2001, 04:34 PM
Prolly, but i still stand by the fact that you do no need high GI food post train. ;)

the doc
11-12-2001, 04:36 PM
i agree chicken

The_Chicken_Daddy
11-12-2001, 04:40 PM
Chicken + Doc = ace^2

Tryska
11-12-2001, 04:45 PM
hey hey..where do i fit into this equation?

chigs, i thought you and i were ace^2?

The_Chicken_Daddy
11-12-2001, 04:50 PM
no, i said that we = ace, we being the variable Rob and T.

Rob + T, however, = ace^x

x being the variable (Rob + Doc)^2

the doc
11-12-2001, 04:52 PM
i'm down with being ace...:nod:

Tryska
11-12-2001, 04:56 PM
wait...i'm not real good with math...but doesn't that mean he's acer than me?

The_Chicken_Daddy
11-12-2001, 05:15 PM
Not quite.

Wizard
11-12-2001, 11:30 PM
Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy

Fuccos!:swear:

He says one thing, you say another!
It's quite impossible to have the same opinions. :o

Thing about:When your insulin levels are @ their highest levels,consuming a protein will balance insulin levels and reduce them dramatically due to the action of glucagon.Having 40% of the postworkout calories from protein is not the ideal.
We were looking for the ideal postworkout which is meant to be high GI carbs + whey.Now,if you don't believe it's the smartest aproach to the best postworkout,nor do I... ;)

aeckhardt
11-15-2001, 04:51 PM
If you really wanna know how much insulin is given off, look up the insulin index. That is the true determinant.

YatesNightBlade
11-16-2001, 02:41 AM
Be aware that insulin has other functions !!

Wizard
11-16-2001, 03:00 AM
You mean its anabolic functions,right?

YatesNightBlade
11-16-2001, 04:44 AM
* To enable glucose to be transported across cell membranes
* To convert glucose into glycogen for storage in the liver and muscles

* To help excess glucose be converted into fat
* To prevent protein breakdown for energy

Wizard
11-16-2001, 07:30 AM
It also increases water retention.
I think it's all about timing.

YatesNightBlade
11-16-2001, 07:35 AM
Insulin is 'Demons to some .... Angels to others.'

Tryska
11-16-2001, 07:36 AM
Originally posted by YatesNightBlade
Insulin is 'Demons to some .... Angels to others.'

hey...people have said the same thing about me, so insulin can't be all bad..*lol*

Prelude
11-16-2001, 10:06 AM
"(think of insulin as the key to the lock on your cells)

once the key is turned, the doors of those cells swing wide open allowing whatever nutrtion is piggybacking on that blood glucose to get in.

so if it's fat.....fat will go directly into your cells. if it's protein, protein will go directly into those cells. (alongside the glucose, of course)"


DAMN! I've always added 2 tsp. of flax or peanut butter or any fats on my 50g malt/50g pro post workout 'coz some moderator from some other board suggested it. Could this be one reason why I'm having a hard time knocking the BF% down? Tryska, thanks for this new info!

The_Chicken_Daddy
11-16-2001, 10:08 AM
fat slows digestion which, for a post workout drink, you do not want.


What board did you get that info from?

Prelude
11-16-2001, 10:10 AM
bb.com . I'll see if I can find the original post, it's been awhile.

Tryska
11-16-2001, 10:10 AM
ummm...what a strange suggestion?

I wouldn't say it's the sole reason you are having problems cutting.....but fat is definitely not necessary in that post training meal.

Wizard
11-16-2001, 11:30 AM
Originally posted by Prelude

I've always added 2 tsp. of flax or peanut butter or any fats on my 50g malt/50g pro post workout 'coz some moderator from some other board suggested it. Could this be one reason why I'm having a hard time knocking the BF% down?

:nod:
This is the worst suggesstion you could have been given..

The EFA's indeed slow down the digestion of the "meal" but there's enough insulin to put on the body a good amount of adipose tissue.

Wizard
11-16-2001, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
fat slows digestion which, for a post workout drink, you do not want.

;)

Prelude
11-16-2001, 11:38 AM
...here's one where they're discussing this (look at the one that's 2nd to the last post). I'm still trying to find the one from the stupid Mod.



http://www.bodybuilding.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=432&highlight=post+workout

The_Chicken_Daddy
11-16-2001, 11:38 AM
~looks around~

~double checks~

*smack*

~casually walks off~