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DeusFacticius
12-20-2004, 01:18 PM
i've heard something about this before, its something you're supposed to avoid while cutting. what exactly does your body do when it goes into starvation mode, and what exactly causes it?

on a related matter, can fasting be used for cutting? fasting for me is very easy... and when i can keep my calories to less than 800 a day (by only drinking liquids, mostly protien shakes) thats a HUGE calorie deficit per day.

JTyrell710
12-20-2004, 01:44 PM
NO. Cut right, starving yourself wont work. Methodically starving yourself will. And starving yourself might cause..starvation mechnanism :O

RBC13
12-20-2004, 02:07 PM
Starvation mode began when women started eating only salads all day trying to lose weight. When cutting you should feel just slightly hungry an hour or two after the meal, or your probably not a)eating enough b)getting sufficient fiber or water c)getting enough fat

Vapour Trails
12-20-2004, 02:25 PM
i've heard something about this before, its something you're supposed to avoid while cutting. what exactly does your body do when it goes into starvation mode, and what exactly causes it?

on a related matter, can fasting be used for cutting? fasting for me is very easy... and when i can keep my calories to less than 800 a day (by only drinking liquids, mostly protien shakes) thats a HUGE calorie deficit per day.

Starvation mode means supression of your metabolism (it slows down). What also happens is muscle is comsumed for energy as well as fat.

Fasting is generally a bad idea because it leads to muscle being used as energy. The majority of weight lost during hunger strikes ect, is muscle. Not to mention your energy levels will be low and lifting heavy will be hard. There is a diet that some advocate where you consume only fish oil pills and whey protein. Supposely you are able to preserve your muscle mass on this diet if your comsume enough protein to maintain a positive nitrogen balance.

geoffgarcia
12-20-2004, 02:43 PM
it also destroys your leptin levels...

DeusFacticius
12-20-2004, 03:54 PM
what does leptin do?

and technically as long as you're consuming enough protien (in the form of liquids), shouldn't you be able to keep muscle?

if i do it like once or twice a week, what kind of effects can i expect?

geoffgarcia
12-20-2004, 03:54 PM
controls weight loss

Holto
12-20-2004, 05:47 PM
leptin controls hunger

geoffgarcia
12-20-2004, 05:50 PM
I think it does more than just hunger...regardless, there are about 70 pages of literature on it on the avant labs site that are good reading if your thinking about starving yourself, it should convince you not to.

ryuage
12-20-2004, 05:57 PM
exactly... leptin controls way more then hunger otherwise I could give a sh*t about leptin. Refeeds are introduced into a diet for the sole prupose of raising leptin (at least for me) I dont think I would do it to control my hunger... haha if hunger is ruining your diet, you dont deserve to get where you want anyway. If you want it that bad you will do it, simple as that.

Holto
12-20-2004, 06:02 PM
so what does it do other than hunger ?

I love learning

Holto
12-20-2004, 06:14 PM
reading over at Avant I see alot of unsubstantiated yet interesting claims of what can be accomplished by manipulating leptin

any proof that any of this is true ?

geoffgarcia
12-20-2004, 06:51 PM
reading over at Avant I see alot of unsubstantiated yet interesting claims of what can be accomplished by manipulating leptin

any proof that any of this is true ?did you read the documents on there or just the forums? they have a series of documents that are full of references (or so I remember)

geoffgarcia
12-20-2004, 07:01 PM
here ya go, each has about 60 references, its not light reading

I
http://www.avantlabs.com/page.php?pageID=51&issueID=3

II
http://www.avantlabs.com/page.php?pageID=58&issueID=4

III
http://www.avantlabs.com/page.php?pageID=64&issueID=5

IV
http://www.avantlabs.com/page.php?pageID=125&issueID=12

V
http://www.avantlabs.com/page.php?pageID=133&issueID=13

VI
http://www.avantlabs.com/page.php?pageID=145&issueID=14

Holto
12-21-2004, 08:26 AM
thats what I was reading

very interesting

geoffgarcia
12-22-2004, 03:02 PM
yeah, there is a lot to it, lot to absorb.
I found it fascinating how quickly the leptin levels drop if you shock the system by cutting calories to quickly.
There is also some good info pertaining to when/how to do refeeds going by the ravenous sensations. Dont remember which its in, read it all a few months back

waynis
12-22-2004, 09:09 PM
Starvation mode means supression of your metabolism (it slows down). What also happens is muscle is comsumed for energy as well as fat.

Fasting is generally a bad idea because it leads to muscle being used as energy. The majority of weight lost during hunger strikes ect, is muscle. Not to mention your energy levels will be low and lifting heavy will be hard. balance.

Same result from eating little to no carbs.

Twin Peak
01-23-2005, 12:10 PM
reading over at Avant I see alot of unsubstantiated yet interesting claims of what can be accomplished by manipulating leptin

any proof that any of this is true ?

Manipulating leptin levels is not what you want to do, what you want is to maintain leptin levels while you are dieting.

Crashing leptin levels is the sabatour to any diet. Low leptin tells your body to hold on to fat, cannabolize muscle, increase hunger and appetite, reduce (conserve) energy levels.

Oh, and the "starvation mode" is just the term used to describe low leptin, it is not what causes low leptin. Low leptin (starvation mode) is the body's defense mechanism when food is scarce.

Shao-LiN
01-23-2005, 04:28 PM
what does leptin do?

and technically as long as you're consuming enough protien (in the form of liquids), shouldn't you be able to keep muscle?

if i do it like once or twice a week, what kind of effects can i expect?

Although consuming enough protein for your bodyweight is always nice, it is not the only thing that helps you keep muscle. Overall caloric intake will dictate weight gain and weight loss.

Vido
01-23-2005, 04:34 PM
Although consuming enough protein for your bodyweight is always nice, it is not the only thing that helps you keep muscle. Overall caloric intake will dictate weight gain and weight loss.

I would have to say that keeping a positive nitrogen balance is probably the most important factor in determining what type of "weight" that gain or loss is.

Adam
01-23-2005, 04:40 PM
:withstupi in reference to shai

I'll make an up exagerated example.

John is 5'8 200lbs
John's AMR is 2000cals a day(to maintain weight)
john eats 300grams of protein, thats it
John is getting 1.5grams/lbs of protein
300grams of protein is 1200cals
John's organs say, "We want energy!"
Then 200grams of protein is tured into energy
now john is only getting 100grams of 'usuable' protein for the day.
0.5g/lbs of protein will make john skinny

Adam
01-23-2005, 04:42 PM
I would have to say that keeping a positive nitrogen balance is probably the most important factor in determining what type of "weight" that gain or loss is.

So are you saying that nutrient timing IS important?

Vido
01-23-2005, 05:01 PM
So are you saying that nutrient timing IS important?

Not really, I'm just saying keep your protein intake high, especially when in a caloric deficit.

SW
01-23-2005, 06:08 PM
Starvation mode: Body assumes you don't have adequate access to food, starts to store everything you eat as fat and uses as little energy as possible. VERY BAD IDEA. Fasting is a bad idea if you want to maintain your health. If you have any muscle you want to keep, don't fast.

Atomical
01-23-2005, 06:20 PM
Is it okay to cut 1,000 calories a day if you're running 10 miles in cardio?

CrazyK
01-23-2005, 06:35 PM
Is it okay to cut 1,000 calories a day if you're running 10 miles in cardio?
What!?!? Running 10 miles a day is a BAD idea for anyone trying to maintain muscle mass, period.

smalls
01-23-2005, 06:53 PM
so what does it do other than hunger ?

I love learning

Leptin was only really discovered around 5 years ago, and it's been heavily researched since. It's supposed to be the "master" hormone as far as fat loss. It is still a pretty big mystery as most of the research is very new and it's effects and manipulation are often misrepresented on bodybuilding sites.
That being said, bodybuilders where ahead of most of the scientific community in realizing it's "possible" application to dieting etc.
Anyway the point of me saying this is that it's pretty hard to describe all the things it has been attributed to and doing a whole bunch of searches would probably be your best bet.

Atomical
01-23-2005, 08:14 PM
What!?!? Running 10 miles a day is a BAD idea for anyone trying to maintain muscle mass, period.

I love how the weight lifting community and the running community seem to be at odds to which is healthier. I want to lose weight down to 150 pounds.. Right now I'm at 200. I've been running for quite a while now. Once I get down to 150 I'll work on building muscle, but right now I'm overweight.

fen2zla
01-23-2005, 08:27 PM
Is it okay to cut 1,000 calories a day if you're running 10 miles in cardio?

10 miles a DAY?! I don't think I have run 10 miles in my entire life. Well not in the past year or two.......
:p

Scott S
01-23-2005, 08:28 PM
I think this "starvation mode" stuff is a lot of hooey.

Above 15% BF or so, you can diet pretty much any way you want to without harming hormone levels or metabolism.

It's only when you diet to low bodyfat levels, that leptin, testosterone, thryoid, and the rest drop. And despite what the diet books say, it'll drop no matter what diet you're using. (As an aside, the main reason most non-athletic dieters' metabolisms drop is because they move around less.)

There are even good arguments for a fast, drastic cut (i.e. PSMF):

1) leptin drops about the same regardless of deficit
2) large deficits get the diet over with faster
3) seeing faster changes keeps you motivated

Discuss.

SW
01-23-2005, 09:18 PM
About the seeing faster changes thing, that would keep alot of the new year's resolutioners sticking with it, when otherwise they would just give up after a while. Definitely good for those who have to see immediate results and the easily discouraged.

Vido
01-23-2005, 09:44 PM
I think this "starvation mode" stuff is a lot of hooey.

Above 15% BF or so, you can diet pretty much any way you want to without harming hormone levels or metabolism.

I don't know much about hormone levels, but I do think the effect on metabolism is still there. It's just a matter of weighing out the pros and cons. If you're above 15%, you may very well not care about an effect on your metabolism if it means you're going to get down to a solid %. You still have to be careful when coming OFF the diet though.


There are even good arguments for a fast, drastic cut (i.e. PSMF):

1) leptin drops about the same regardless of deficit
2) large deficits get the diet over with faster
3) seeing faster changes keeps you motivated

Totally agree here. I don't even see any point of doing a "normal" cut, aside from the fact that it's easier...and even that can be argued against in that PSMF, and especially UD2, are extremely structured.

dissipate
01-24-2005, 06:15 AM
Is it okay to cut 1,000 calories a day if you're running 10 miles in cardio?

What!?!? Running 10 miles a day is a BAD idea for anyone trying to maintain muscle mass, period.

I love how the weight lifting community and the running community seem to be at odds to which is healthier. I want to lose weight down to 150 pounds.. Right now I'm at 200. I've been running for quite a while now. Once I get down to 150 I'll work on building muscle, but right now I'm overweight.


i think you should be more worried about bodyfat than weight unless you participate in a sport or something which requires you to decrease your bodyweight.

cutting 1k calories a day is already quite a lot IMO (i cut a max of 500 cals); that plus running 10 miles a day will probably bring about too big a deficit. i reckon 10 miles a day is overtraining and will probably cause injury unless you're used to it or a marathon runner, in which case i'd suggest switching to some other form of cardio as your body has probably already adapted to running especially long-distance running.

about building muscle, lifting burns a whole lot of calories and does well in preserving your LBM. with more LBM, your metabolic rate is increased plus muscle burns calories even while you're resting. if you just do cardio, you're going to be losing fat and muscle. muscle loss = LBM loss = decreased metabolic rate = harder and harder for you to lose fat.

it's advisble for people trying to lose fat to watch their diet, lift heavy and do a sensible amount of cardio.

check these two articles out
http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/training/winning_1.htm
http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/training/winning_2.htm

Atomical
01-24-2005, 07:37 AM
i think you should be more worried about bodyfat than weight unless you participate in a sport or something which requires you to decrease your bodyweight.

cutting 1k calories a day is already quite a lot IMO (i cut a max of 500 cals); that plus running 10 miles a day will probably bring about too big a deficit. i reckon 10 miles a day is overtraining and will probably cause injury unless you're used to it or a marathon runner, in which case i'd suggest switching to some other form of cardio as your body has probably already adapted to running especially long-distance running.

about building muscle, lifting burns a whole lot of calories and does well in preserving your LBM. with more LBM, your metabolic rate is increased plus muscle burns calories even while you're resting. if you just do cardio, you're going to be losing fat and muscle. muscle loss = LBM loss = decreased metabolic rate = harder and harder for you to lose fat.

it's advisble for people trying to lose fat to watch their diet, lift heavy and do a sensible amount of cardio.

check these two articles out
http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/training/winning_1.htm
http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/training/winning_2.htm

Running 10 miles a day may be a niche on it's own. There's a guy next to me who runs over 10 miles a day. It's all about working up to it. Besides, I'm interested in running and finishing a marathon with speed.

CrazyK
01-24-2005, 09:01 AM
I love how the weight lifting community and the running community seem to be at odds to which is healthier. I want to lose weight down to 150 pounds.. Right now I'm at 200. I've been running for quite a while now. Once I get down to 150 I'll work on building muscle, but right now I'm overweight.
It has nothing to do with which is healthier.

Holto
01-24-2005, 09:23 AM
Leptin was only really discovered around 5 years ago, and it's been heavily researched since. It's supposed to be the "master" hormone as far as fat loss. It is still a pretty big mystery as most of the research is very new and it's effects and manipulation are often misrepresented on bodybuilding sites.
That being said, bodybuilders where ahead of most of the scientific community in realizing it's "possible" application to dieting etc.
Anyway the point of me saying this is that it's pretty hard to describe all the things it has been attributed to and doing a whole bunch of searches would probably be your best bet.

I have read alot about it and come to the conclusion I don't need to worry about it

I have no problem with cutting and retaining lean mass or avoiding hunger

but thanks though

I was being sarcastic to Ryuage who piped up that it does lots of different things yet he couldn't name one...

StarLeague
01-24-2005, 11:55 AM
Assuming I am trying to cut from a 24% BF to approx 10% BF.

calories:2250-2400
protein:150-170g
carbs:70g
fats:40g

Calories burned from cardio per day:250
Days lifting per week:5
Height : 5 11"
Weight : 77KG

My question is

1) Is the timing of when you consume your nutrients important? E.g. Would it drastically affect your progress if you sleep at 4AM, consume most of your nutrients from 3PM-12AM.

2) Should I consume less cals/carbs/fats? And burn more cals during my cardio ? Do I have to do cardio everyday?

StarLeague
01-24-2005, 12:03 PM
How much fat should we be eating per day anyway ?

ReelBigFish
01-24-2005, 02:15 PM
no, the time of the day doesnt' matter. But if your not going to bed till 4 why would you stop eating and 12? Your body doesn't distinguish between day and night when it comes to digesting food.

carlossalsa8
01-24-2005, 06:06 PM
I don't think you should drop ur cals if you run 10 miles a day. You should up them instead. I play soccer and I watch what I eat but everytime I don't eat enough I feel like crap when I am running or training. When I eat a lot, I feel so great and my energy levels are high. Running 10 miles a day and adding more food to ur body would be a great idea ( in my opinion ) If you run 10 miles everyday your body wont necessary use muscles as energy if you ve eaten enough carbohydrates. I don't know why people are so scared of adding cardio to their routine. Just eat a bit more carbs and your body won't eat ur muscles. I eat a bit more of protein than I need and my muscles haven't gone away with all the running I do which is a lot.

AdmiralDan
01-24-2005, 06:19 PM
Assuming I am trying to cut from a 24% BF to approx 10% BF.

calories:2250-2400
protein:150-170g
carbs:70g
fats:40g

Calories burned from cardio per day:250
Days lifting per week:5
Height : 5 11"
Weight : 77KG

My question is

1) Is the timing of when you consume your nutrients important? E.g. Would it drastically affect your progress if you sleep at 4AM, consume most of your nutrients from 3PM-12AM.

2) Should I consume less cals/carbs/fats? And burn more cals during my cardio ? Do I have to do cardio everyday?


based on your nutrient breakdown, you are consuming about 1360 calories. where are the rest coming from? you said you are takin in 2250-2400

Scott S
01-24-2005, 07:17 PM
How much fat should we be eating per day anyway ?

Beyond getting adequate EFAs, it all depends on your goals.

StarLeague
01-25-2005, 12:47 AM
AdmiralDan: Whole food contain calories too?

E.g. The protein shake that I take, 110cals/23g of protein x 4 = 440cals.
4 meals a day = Approx 1000 cals.

Does it work that way ?

fen2zla
01-25-2005, 02:52 AM
AdmiralDan: Whole food contain calories too?

E.g. The protein shake that I take, 110cals/23g of protein x 4 = 440cals.
4 meals a day = Approx 1000 cals.

Does it work that way ?

Huh?

Yes, whole food contain's calories. That's why we eat.
Admiral Dan was looking at your C/P/F breakdown. You said you eat 2250-2400cals a day, but according to your C/P/F breakdown it look's like you only get ~1320cals a day.
ie. protein:150-170g x 4 = 600-680cals
carbs: 70g x 4 = 280cals
fats: 40g x 9 = 360cals
= ~1240-1320cals a day.
But it's hard to know what your asking. :)

AdmiralDan
01-25-2005, 05:24 AM
the calories in whole food come from protein, fat, and carbs. so what you said, it doesn't add up. either you only account for 1400 of your calories or you only eat 1400 calories

SW
01-25-2005, 06:09 AM
I know you probably don't care atomical, but cutting all of those calories + all the cortisol building up in your muscles because of all of that running is going to decimate muscle mass and strength. I just had to say it.

StarLeague
01-25-2005, 09:34 AM
Okay, forgive me but I'm kinda new to this nutrition thing.

Basically, when I eat something I look at the nutrition facts on the cover.

E.g. My protein shake says I'm eating 2g of Carbs/20g of protein/1g of fat *and 110 calories*

My question is.

Am I eating 2g carbs/20g Protein/1g fat

OR

2g carbs/20g protein/1g fat *AND 110 calories*

StarLeague
01-25-2005, 09:37 AM
How much carbs and fat do I need if I were to make a cut or bulk. I read somewhere that lowering carbs has helps you cut, that true?

Thanks.

Holto
01-25-2005, 09:45 AM
StarLeague:

1 gram of Protein or Carbs contains 4 cals
1 gram of Fat contains 9 cals

you should start your own thread for other q's, you will get better resoponses

AdmiralDan
01-25-2005, 05:16 PM
Okay, forgive me but I'm kinda new to this nutrition thing.

Basically, when I eat something I look at the nutrition facts on the cover.

E.g. My protein shake says I'm eating 2g of Carbs/20g of protein/1g of fat *and 110 calories*

My question is.

Am I eating 2g carbs/20g Protein/1g fat

OR

2g carbs/20g protein/1g fat *AND 110 calories*

it means that you are getting 110 calories, coming from the carbs, protein, and fat

StarLeague
01-25-2005, 11:50 PM
Thanks AdmiralDan.

So it would be

300gCarbs x 4 = 1200 cals
50gFats x 9 = 450 cals
180gProtein x4 = 720 cals

Total:2370g cals

To clarify something, assuming my body requires 1900 calories per day. I burn 250 cals during a workout and 200 cals during cardio, that would be 2350 calories burnt per day.

My question, there is a surplus of 20 calories here. Would I grow muscle wise? Isn't my body turning my 180g protein into calories? This would mean I have hardly any protein left after conversion?

Does it work that way. I'm kinda new to this nutrition thing.

Thanks again.

Adam
01-26-2005, 03:04 AM
1lbs of muscle is roughly 1800 calories.
20extra cals a day and you would gain a lbs of muscle in 90days.
Think about that. Is that the progress you wanna make.