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Dude
11-14-2001, 10:38 AM
Anyone knows something like this?
50g of it has 27g of protein,170cal with 0% of satured and normal fat...and its not any suplement and stuff 400g costs 1 buck....
i was wondering if there are more products like this one...

Wizard
11-14-2001, 10:43 AM
Don't buy it.It won't benefit you.Stick to animal protein if you want to get good results.

Also,run a search to understand why it won't benefit you as this topic has been discussed several times before.

Bullrider Billy
11-14-2001, 11:00 AM
I can make it even easier...

http://www.i-a-r-t.com/articles/soyprotein.html
Http://www.mercola.com/2001/apr/7/soy.htm
http://thyroid.about.com/library/weekly/aa083099.htm
http://thyroid.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.soyonlineservice.co.nz
http://thyroid.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rheumatic.org%2Fsoy.htm

Wizard
11-14-2001, 11:10 AM
Thanx a lot! :)

Bullrider Billy
11-14-2001, 11:44 AM
I am always ready, willing, able and happy to bash soy. :bash:

Tryska
11-14-2001, 11:46 AM
heh.

a man after my own heart..*lol*

Dude
11-14-2001, 11:58 AM
hehe ok sorry guys i forgot about the search... hehe
so what do you recomend to eat before lift some weight?
barbecue?:D

Bullrider Billy
11-14-2001, 12:20 PM
Just about anything that's "clean" and healthy...

natural peanut butter on whole grain bread with low fat milk;
slices of deli ham or turkey;
a whey protein shake;
etc.

Wizard
11-14-2001, 12:38 PM
It's better to avoid fat consumption before lifting.

hemants
11-15-2001, 08:15 AM
Soy is a complete protein, this has been debated ad nauseum.

Check the archives.

My conclusions :

1. don't take isoflavone pills, especially if you're a woman
2. soy milk has lowest isoflavones per gram of protein
3. isoflavones bind to estrogen receptors but are 1/500 the potency of actual estrogen which is why some reports suggest that soy is a testosterone booster in men
4. 10lbs of excess body fat for a man is about all you need to give your body enough estrogen to fill your estrogen receptor cites (which men have very few to begin with)

Bullrider Billy
11-15-2001, 09:01 AM
Soy is not complete. It lacks methionine, an essential amino acid.

10lbs of excess body fat for a man is about all you need to give your body enough estrogen to fill your estrogen receptor cites (which men have very few to begin with)

Contact Larrian Gillespie, MD for further information... lgille01@interserv.com

Alex.V
11-15-2001, 09:08 AM
100 grams of soybeans contains .224 grams of methionine. This is relatively low, but far from "lacking."

Reinier
11-15-2001, 09:33 AM
ok ok so the benefits of soy have been smashed over and over.
but i already bought a jar should i still finish it or will it make me grow DD breasts and ovories?

Wizard
11-15-2001, 09:42 AM
No problem Reinier.. after you finish the jar you can hit the clomid and you'll be ok.

Bullrider Billy
11-15-2001, 09:44 AM
http://www.ag.iastate.edu/aginfo/news/1998releases/sulfur.html
http://www.fujioil.co.jp/daizu/srj/eng/headline/docu/vol07e.html#11

http://www.talkinternational.com/redoxal/methioninefaq.htm
Q: What causes deficiencies of methionine?

A: Use of or continuous exposure to nitrous oxide gas lowers blood methionine levels (5), soy based vegetarian diets, ...


For all intents and purposes, since it's so low and considered to be deficient, it's "lacking" in my book.

In my opinion, based on what I've read, pros and cons, soy is garbage as a basis for a diet. Some supplementation has some benefits, but that's about it. The pros are not outweighed by the cons.

hemants
11-15-2001, 09:57 AM
The jury is out wrt soy isoflavones but the Methionine argument is a red herring as far as I can see.

The daily requirements for Methionine would be met by 50 g of Soy. And that's assuming you are eating no other protein at all.

To put it in perspective here are Methionine mg per 10g of protein.

Egg 305
Chicken 277
Rice 231
Milk 240
Soy 140
Whey 120

Eggs are the methionine kings but Soy is hardly deficient.

Bullrider Billy
11-15-2001, 10:36 AM
... Soy is hardly deficient

Did you read the links?

The point is that soy is unnecessary. Far healthier proteins can be consumed, whose effects are more well known.

At the risk of repetition, "The pros [of soy] are not outweighed by [its] cons."

hemants
11-15-2001, 10:42 AM
"Did you read the links? "

"Soybean protein is deficient in the sulfur-based amino acids methionine and cysteine. Soybean meal must be fortified with synthetic forms of those amino acids to provide the proper nutrition when preparing feed for swine and poultry."

I'll remember that the next time I'm preparing feed for my pet pigs. ;)

"At the risk of repetition, "The pros [of soy] are not outweighed by [its] cons."

Aside from a lucid article in testosterone magazine and the unsuitability for pigs and chickens I haven't seen any cons other than those arising from taking Soy Isoflavones in high concentrations and even that seems to be more of an issue for women.

WRT the other links, it is true that taking methionine with Soy increases its biological value. But it hardly low to begin with.

Bullrider Billy
11-15-2001, 10:57 AM
The biology of pigs and humans is not that dissimilar. Moreover, in the links I posted above, there are injunctions against giving soy formula to infants.

What are the benefits of soy that cannot be obtained from other sources?

How do you justify its consumption?

What if soy did not exist?

Can you point to studies that show that there are no ill-effects from soy?

I have an open mind. For example, there was time that I thought it had absolutely no use whatsoever. But I agree it does have some applications if...

1. You are female and menopausal;
2. Male and overweight.

But even then in small amounts.

It is completely out if you have an underactive thyroid, regardless where you are wrt items 1 and 2.

hemants
11-15-2001, 11:09 AM
"The biology of pigs and humans is not that dissimilar"

I can't comment but if you're saying that a Soy only diet would not be suitable for humans then I agree with you. It wouldn't, however, have anything to do with Methionine as a pure Soy diet with sufficient calories WOULD have more than enough Methionine. I'm not sure where you're trying to go with this, it's a dead end.

"Moreover, in the links I posted above, there are injunctions against giving soy formula to infants. "

Nor is it recommended for infants younger than a particular age (I can't remember what age that is but I am much older than that ;) )

"How do you justify its consumption? "

It is food. I am human. Humans's eat food.

"What if soy did not exist? "

Then I would eat other food. But it does exist. It is not essential but neither is any other single source of food.

"Can you point to studies that show that there are no ill-effects from soy?"

That's shifting the burden of proof. People in Asia have been eating Soy for centuries. What is not known is what happens when we take a couple of chemicals from Soy (Isoflavones) put them in pills, and give them in high doses to people. That is why I recommend Soy Milk because it is extremely low in Isoflavones.

At the same time, Isoflavones do have alleged benefits including cancer fighting properties. Ask a qualified doctor and you'll get 100's of studies (not that the medical community is always right ehTrystka? ;) )

"It is completely out if you have an underactive thyroid, regardless where you are wrt items 1 and 2."

If I had an underactive thyroid I would investigate more deeply but I WOULD look beyond the internet.

Bullrider Billy
11-15-2001, 11:22 AM
Well, suit yourself. But time will tell. I'd rather err on the side of caution and avoid soy.

If I had an underactive thyroid I would investigate more deeply but I WOULD look beyond the internet.

Well, I do :( and I did :). And I got more accurate information from the internet in the form of direct information, references, links and contacts than I did from my own MD. Don't sell the internet short. It's not the "games and chats" it once was. There is probably as much accurate information on the internet as there is in any library, if not in full information, but in references. I'll take a 10 minute web search any day over spending an afternoon in a library.

Tryska
11-15-2001, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by hemants

That's shifting the burden of proof. People in Asia have been eating Soy for centuries. What is not known is what happens when we take a couple of chemicals from Soy (Isoflavones) put them in pills, and give them in high doses to people. That is why I recommend Soy Milk because it is extremely low in Isoflavones.



people in asia have been eating FERMENTED soy products for centuries. that needs to be noted, as it makes all the difference in the world.

as for the biology of pigs...i was thinking of piping up on that as well, but as billy said, they are not dissimilar, meaning that studies on pig nutrition can quite easily be extrapolated in regards to humans.

Tryska
11-15-2001, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by Bullrider Billy


If I had an underactive thyroid I would investigate more deeply but I WOULD look beyond the internet.

Well, I do :( and I did :). And I got more accurate information from the internet in the form of direct information, references, links and contacts than I did from my own MD. Don't sell the internet short. It's not the "games and chats" it once was. There is probably as much accurate information on the internet as there is in any library, if not in full information, but in references. I'll take a 10 minute web search any day over spending an afternoon in a library.

agreed.

hemants
11-15-2001, 11:33 AM
"There is probably as much accurate information on the internet as there is in any library, if not in full information, but in references. I'll take a 10 minute web search any day over spending an afternoon in a library"

I agree :)

But for every piece of good information on the web there are 10 pieces of nonsense. You just gotta filter them out.

"Well, suit yourself. But time will tell. I'd rather err on the side of caution and avoid soy. "

To each their own. Some are more easily swayed by hype than others. ;)

"as for the biology of pigs...i was thinking of piping up on that as well, but as billy said, they are not dissimilar, meaning that studies on pig nutrition can quite easily be extrapolated in regards to humans."

Yes and as I already agreed, a pure soy feed diet would probably not be suitable for humans but it would have nothing to do with Methionine deficiency.

:)

Tryska
11-15-2001, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by hemants
[B
To each their own. Some are more easily swayed by hype than others. ;)

[/B]

i find this statement quite presumptive, hemant. and not in a good way.

hemants
11-15-2001, 11:46 AM
K sry.

Let me put it this way.

Until I see a conclusive study in a peer reviewed journal that soy can cause any of the alleged hyped up negative effects in a normal healthy adult male it's all hype to me.

I understand that as a woman with Thyroid issues it's another story and my comment wasn't directed at you in any way.

I apologize for not making that clear.

Tryska
11-15-2001, 11:51 AM
i just wish that rather then claiming things as hype believed by the hysterical, you would take into account that myself, and Billy (as i do trust his opinion) have definitely done research, and are quite capable of seperating the wheat from the chaff, as it were. it's an affront to our intelligence. I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, but that's how i, at least, perceived it.

in any case...apology accepted. thanks! :)

Wizard
11-15-2001, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by Tryska

in any case...apology accepted. thanks! :)

What a nice girl! :D

hemants
11-15-2001, 11:58 AM
Well, thus far as far as billie is concerned his record is mixed:

Wheat - Soy not recommended for infants, soy effects on thyroid not clear

Chaff - soy causes methionine deficiency, soy is not ideal pig feed and thus unsuitable for humans.

The latter are what I would consider hype along with the usual "bitch tits" stuff that seems to have arisen from T-Mag.

Bullrider Billy
11-15-2001, 12:15 PM
Until I see a conclusive study in a peer reviewed journal that soy can cause any of the alleged hyped up negative effects in a normal healthy adult male it's all hype to me.

Until I see a conclusive study in a peer reviewed journal that soy does not cause any of the alleged hyped up negative effects in a normal healthy adult male it's all hype to me.

It goes both ways!

hemants
11-15-2001, 12:22 PM
Billy,

It's not exactly the same thing.

For example, you can find hype on the web that alleges that too much protein causes kidney failure.

There has been no peer reviewed study to prove that it does not but nor has there been any peer reviewed study to suggest that it does.

Do you avoid too much protein? I doubt it.

Bullrider Billy
11-15-2001, 12:34 PM
OK, let me rephrase...

Until I see a conclusive study in a peer reviewed journal that soy provides all the benefits it is alleged to provide and none of the alleged hyped up negative effects in a normal healthy human, it's all hype to me.

That's why I say suit yourself. The information, pro and con, is out there. My cons are as valid as your pros. We can agree to disagree, and that there is no conclusive proof either way.

hemants
11-15-2001, 12:47 PM
Ok, now I see where you're coming from.

I don't take soy because of the alleged benefits. I take it because it's a good source of protein with all the essential amino acids and no saturated fat.

Even if none of the cancer fighting/heart disease fighting benefits were true, I would still consume it.

As per the alleged cons, I am interested since i am a consumer (albeit in moderation, 30g per day if that) and my version of playing it safe is avoiding those soy foods that are high in Isoflavones.

Peace out.

Reinier
11-15-2001, 02:11 PM
I dont eat all that much soy.
I only drop some 50 grams of soy powder in my post workout shake now, i know whey beats soy hands down but ill get some this weekend havent got any yet. that makes 50 grams of soy once every 2 days.
thats not bitch tit-sex change material is it?
I just dont want to throw it away just finish it off and then switch to whey and never back.
ps Soy tastes like grinded moulded sandpaper

SweatHawg
11-16-2001, 11:49 PM
:D Agree with Rein on the taste! Thats one of my main reasons for staying far away from soy protein-Tastes bloody awful & is hard as hell to mix. Just give me good ole whey & a jug of skim milk! Soy is Nasty! :mad:

Reinier
11-18-2001, 10:54 AM
No problem Reinier.. after you finish the jar you can hit the clomid and you'll be ok.

lol seriously how bad is it?
if i only have 50 grams every 2 days what harm could it do?

Wizard
11-18-2001, 11:26 AM
No man.I was kidding. :D

You can safely finish the jar and then buy some quality protein.

Fart Barker
11-19-2001, 02:57 PM
Q: Laura: My son drinks lots of soy products. I've read so much about how soy helps women in menopause. If it helps women in menopause, what does it do to men?

A: Dr. Dean: The vast majority of physicians, including many alternative practitioners, do not recommend taking soy supplements precisely because we don't yet know the answer to that question.

If soy mimics female hormone what is its effect on guys? What is its effect on women who want to avoid estrogen because of its association with breast cancer? And what about all the little babies who live on nothing but soy formula? They are taking in a wallop of hormones that adults gobble up to solve their adult problems.

Research does show that soy's ability to mimic estrogen may have the benefit of relieving symptoms of menopause in women, may kill prostate cancer cells in men, and may offer some protection from heart disease.

But soy also blocks estrogen production, and how that plays out is confusing.

Eating soy doesn't seem to create problems. But taking soy supplements, in concentration and in large quantities, seems to backfire and may increase the risk for cancer.

We run into trouble when we expect health to come in the form of a magic food. There's no such thing.


Dean Edell, M.D.